On Ricasso design..

[2knife]

Here are a few photos, borrowed from a Stuart Branson recent thread. It seems to well illustrate the intent of the "Fowler-style" ricasso. Comments?

Re: My latest hunter
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 09:20:59 PM »
"That is a great knife! The long ricasso lets you have a 4" or a 5" knife according to your grip, this is what is nice about them, you can place one finger in front of the ricasso, or your index finger on the spine and your second finger on the ricasso, the guard will always protect your working hand."
Ed Fowler

 

[RogerP]

Comments? Well, that's one approach favored by some. I don't know that I'd want to have my finger a mere whisker away from a razor sharp cutting edge if I were doing anything much more demanding than posing for a photo - nor have I found any need to do so when using a hunting knife as a hunting knife.

Aesthetically, I think Stuart turned out a fine looking knife indeed.

Roger

 

[Kohai999]

Comments? Well, that's one approach favored by some. I don't know that I'd want to have my finger a mere whisker away from a razor sharp cutting edge if I were doing anything much more demanding than posing for a photo - nor have I found any need to do so when using a hunting knife as a hunting knife.

Aesthetically, I think Stuart turned out a fine looking knife indeed.

Roger

I agree with all of that, Roger.

I always felt if you wanted a guardless design, the Saami knife design from Finland was well thought out.

The largest knives can be considered as machetes or short swords.

The tang runs through the handle and the blade is always in scandinavian (or scandi) grind. The blade should be strong enough to split (reindeer) bones, and it is typically not made of stainless steel. Some Sami knives have fullers and in general the knives are excellent outdoor tools for bushcrafting.

When a knife incorporates a guard, it is my feeling that design was crafted to keep the hand BEHIND the guard.

The knife pictured above is very attractive, and I am sure, quite functional.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[2knife]

. .. I don't know that I'd want to have my finger a mere whisker away from a razor sharp cutting edge..

Roger

Thanks for the comments. There is usually a small area at the edge, just beyond the ricasso which is intentionally left unsharpened. - sort of idea where if there's any chance you might get bit, you get warned first.
David

 

[petah]

Thanks for the comments. There is usually a small area at the edge, just beyond the ricasso which is intentionally left unsharpened. (in smaller knives)
David

I don't like that non-sharpened bit. It always gives me trouble when I sharpen.

 

[saxon]

As I remember it, and this is my own preference also, Ed described his logic for this type of ricasso a long time back in a Blade mag. or one of those. When you are in a situation where you need to cut a rope or any such cordage, in a life threatening emergency, the last thing you want is to grab for the rope with your knife only to have it get caught up in the choil. a ricasso is no problem because the blade will slide right off of it and onto the sharpened edge. But a choil can cause a hang-up that could cost you your life. I know that sounds dramatic but consider the source. Ed is a rancher. If you've ever done ranch work on horseback you know how things can go sideways in a hurry where rope is concerned.

 

[Kohai999]

As I remember it, and this is my own preference also, Ed described his logic for this type of ricasso a long time back in a Blade mag. or one of those. When you are in a situation where you need to cut a rope or any such cordage, in a life threatening emergency, the last thing you want is to grab for the rope with your knife only to have it get caught up in the choil. a ricasso is no problem because the blade will slide right off of it and onto the sharpened edge.

For myself, this discussion has not been about choil/no choil, it has been about the length of the ricasso, and enabling blade holds that seriously endanger the digital integrity of the user.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[saxon]

For myself, this discussion has not been about choil/no choil, it has been about the length of the ricasso, and enabling blade holds that seriously endanger the digital integrity of the user.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I was coming at it from a different angle. I think in the same article that I made reference to, Ed said that if a handle and guard are designed well the fingers should never have to be placed in front of the guard to achieve a better grip. He seemed to indicate that he considered it dangerous and unnecessary with a well designed knife. I wish Ed would drop in and rehash his ideas for us. My copy of that magazine is out in Colorado.

 

[2knife]

For myself, this discussion has not been about choil/no choil, it has been about the length of the ricasso, and enabling blade holds that seriously endanger the digital integrity of the user.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson

- Interesting thought. Anyone heard of an injury due to the "choked" up hold ? A knife having a substantial guard will purposefully lock your hand behind the guard. The only way i can figure something might drag your index finger forward is being purely wreckless or stupid. (?) Or, losing the knife - pulled out of your hand, possibly. Mostly "choke up" hold is for giving more control over small tasks.. Not chopping your way through stuff.
David

 

[RogerP]

- Interesting thought. Anyone heard of an injury due to the "choked" up hold ? David

Ever heard of anyone losing their life because their choil got hung up on a rope?

I've never even heard of it presenting a problem of any kind, much less endangering your life.

I understand that it is a design choice, and on the right knife, I like the look of the "no dropped edge". But I'm not really buying the functional benefit. And if it encourages you to slip your finger past the protection of the guard and onto the blade, I think that's a safety risk. I very muich doubt a little unsharpened area will make much of an impression on cold fingers on a northern October hunt, nor provide much of a barrier on a slick blood-and-fat streaked blade. If your hand slips, it's going all the way baby.

Whether it provides any actual benefit in circumstances where your life is in jeopardy and cutting a rope is somehow your path to salvation, I simply cannot say.

The guard is there for a reason.

Roger

 

[Kohai999]

- Interesting thought. Anyone heard of an injury due to the "choked" up hold ?

David,

I have a lifelong love affair with knives. My hands are COVERED with scars, one cut in particular resulting in nerve damage, mostly self inflicted due to inattention and working with haste. There is a small scar on my right index finger where the blade cut in deep when I was working on an acorn squash using the "choke up" hold.

Many fellow Forumites seem to think that custom knife collectors put on white gloves and lint free suits to handle their knives.

I have over 10 custom and mid-tech folders in daily rotation, and 4 or 5 fixed blades. The folders get whaled on, because that is what I use most of the time. I don't skin beasts anymore because I don't get out to hunt, but barring that, my "practical" experiences with knives are extensive and mapped out on my hands for all the world to see.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

David,

I have a lifelong love affair with knives. My hands are COVERED with scars, one cut in particular resulting in nerve damage, mostly self inflicted due to inattention and working with haste. There is a small scar on my right index finger where the blade cut in deep when I was working on an acorn squash using the "choke up" hold.

Many fellow Forumites seem to think that custom knife collectors put on white gloves and lint free suits to handle their knives.

I have over 10 custom and mid-tech folders in daily rotation, and 4 or 5 fixed blades. The folders get whaled on, because that is what I use most of the time. I don't skin beasts anymore because I don't get out to hunt, but barring that, my "practical" experiences with knives are extensive and mapped out on my hands for all the world to see.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Glad to know I'm not the only klutz with scars all over my hands. :thumbup:

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

Many fellow Forumites seem to think that custom knife collectors put on white gloves and lint free suits to handle their knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

That's funny.

 

[Bill Burke]

How many that are replying to this thread have been shoulder deep in the chest cavity of a very large animal with both handes and arm inside one of them holding a razor sharp knife while the other is holding back from two or three hundred pounds of offal while the first hand is trying to cut the diapham and in order to remove the contents of the body cavity? How many have done it enough to get good at it? Having the ability to place the middle finger on the riccasso with the index finger reaching to the tip of the blade the thumb pinching the blade to the middle finger while the ring and pinky fingers remain behind the guard let me have total control and know exactly where the blade is in relation to my other hand. In twenty years of using this type of hold on a knife i have not hand a slip or cut myself. now some of you are saying but you haven't made knive for that long. You are right but I have been using knive as tools for at least forty three years. I can remeber carring a knife to school in my pocket the first day of school that I ever attended. the teacher saw me sharpening a pencil and took it and I had to bring a note from home saying that it was ok for me to have a pocket knife.

 

[Jon Brand]

Haha, my hands are absolutely covered in scars aswell. Once I was messing around (not cutting anything important but having fun) and I thaught it was ok to have my finger up there but noticed a thin red cut when I was finished. So I keep my hands behind the guard usually.

Its funny, slip joints seem to cut me the most.

I do think thats a beautiful knife shown. I would just hold it under the guard.

 

[SBranson]

I really like the extended choil as shown and find that grip very comfortable to use. Now the concern about cutting oneself in that grip doesn't really come into play for the times when I use that grip. I use it for specific cuts, particularly when using the index finger that's on the guard as a guide against the material being cut.
That's just a for instance but any blade used improperly can cut you, I just find the convenience of choking up with this style to be a good design, for me.

If the knife has a guard and a ricasso then the closest you can get your hand to the point of the cut is about 3/4". I like the control as I mentioned above.

Personal preferences sure as there seem to be no "objectives" in design.

 

[RogerP]

Bill - is a deer a very large animal? I am no expert whatsoever, but I can at least say I have done what needs doing on that type of critter and have not found the type of handling of a knife that you describe to be necessary.

And speaking for myself - I wouldn't consider it advisable, as I am in the Garsson / Jones / Brand level of klutziness with the scars to show for it. For me, gripping the cutting end of a working knife would be an invitation for bad stuff to happen. When using a knife, I'll keep my hand on the handle and all fingers on the safe side of the guard.

For those that like to get their hands on the blade itself and - like you - are adept at it - more power to you.

I also haven't had a dropped edge get hung up on anything - whether we're talking hunting knife, utility or chopper. Most of my cutting is not done on the portion of the blade where the cutting edge ends and the ricasso begins. Unless, of course, I were to put my finger there.

As for control - this may be stating the obvious, but if you eliminate one inch of ricasso, your hand is now one inch closer to the cutting, but still behind the safety of the guard.

But this is what is great about custom knives - you get to have them built to suit your functional and aesthetic preferences. I love the look of Stuart's knife and would be happy to put something like that to use. I just wouldn't be fondling the steel.

Roger

 

[Lorien]

my hands are so beautiful that I get offers to be a hand model for many different manufacturers of skin conditioner. I must not be clumsy like the rest of you guys.

Hmm, middle finger on the ricasso, index finger at the tip and the two anterior fingers on the handle...that seems like a very handy and accurate way to do the 'animal processing' thing. Not that I would know, as I only eat seeds.

 

[Hmathews]

If you can't see what you are cutting in a chest cavity, I don't see where it makes much difference if you are elbow deep or shoulder deep. I've been both. You still have to find some way to know where your edge is and what it is cutting or you can create a huge mess. I like my recasso short and close to the guard. I want the edge sharpened all the way to the edge of the plunge cuts and no choil. I like to place my index finger along the spine of the blade and keep the rest of my digits behind the guard. I like a knife that when all my fingers are behind the guard the edge is not far away. Having the edge close seems to give my cuts more control and power if I am carving something and the guard is there to protect my fingers. I will make knives pretty much like the customer wants them, but if I am using it, I would rather it be as I have described it above. That being said, I have used a bunch over the years that weren’t at all like that description and had no real trouble that I can remember.

I have used my knives on a lot game animals over the years from the ground to the freezer so to speak. I have carried a knife since I was 6 and I am 59 now. One thing I have realized is that you can take two people, like my twin brother Charlie and I, with the same basic backgrounds, field experience and number of years of actively using knives, ask them to pick their favorite knife design and they won't look the same. They can both take apart a game animal with little fuss using their chosen design because it suits them and the way they work.

If you want a long recasso on your knife and want to put your fingers in front of the guard, go ahead. I don’t see any problems with it. I like keeping my fingers behind the guard. I have seen it done well both ways and think it really boils down to nothing more than personal preference.

I have seen the choil on a pocket knife hang up when cutting up some canvas and it was really aggravating. I don’t like the small ones that keep the edge from the recasso. The larger dropped edge on a Bowie, I think, looks good and I have never had a real problem using one.

 

[WalterDavis]

I've never even heard of it presenting a problem of any kind, much less endangering your life.

Before I really got into making knives I'd purchased Ed Fowler's Knife Talk book, and when I read his comments on ricasso design I basically thought the same thing as RogerP. I grew up working in kitchens and playing in the woods (though not much of a hunter), and ricasso design was never an issue for me.

However, working in the oilfield for the last few years I've had the opportunity on occasion to open large amounts of sacked material (barite, gel, mica, sawdust, etc) in a short amount of time. The usual procedure is for one or two guys to open and dump the material while others pile up bags nearby, and usually at a rapid pace. I've often had, and observed, dropped edges and sharpening choils catch in the sacks as the blade is plunged into the material, causing the guy cutting the sacks to have to pull harder or simply rip the sack with force. Not necessarily life and death, but definitely causing more danger to themselves and others nearby.

Aside from that I've had hangups on nylon webbing, rope and twine, and plastic sheeting among other things. Aesthetically, I prefer the look of dropped edge on most knives but I have come to appreciate the Fowler-type ricasso for its functionality on the small and mid-sized knife. The thought process behind it makes a lot of sense to me as a user and a maker, and I try to incorporate the basic ideas into most of my knives as I have found that in my uses there is a distinct functional advantage.

Of course, those are just my experiences. Again, as Roger said:

But this is what is great about custom knives - you get to have them built to suit your functional and aesthetic preferences. I love the look of Stuart's knife and would be happy to put something like that to use.