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On Ricasso design..
- Thread starter 2knife
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I use a knife every day at work for all sorts of things. Although as an electrician my main use is stripping steel wire armoured cables...here's where the choil length question becomes tricky for me.
After pulling cables through underground ducts etc using a draw rope, it sometimes has to be cut off rather than untied. I've found that a dropped edge or sharpening choil snags too often for my liking and therefore I don't do them anymore except on larger bowies etc where the blade is generally used further from the guard. With a straight transition, the blade can be quickly drawn across the rope without thinking about where to place it to avoid snagging.
As for length of choil...now it gets tricky for me. To strip the outer sheath of large armoured cables a lot of force is needed to cut down the length of it with the blade at 90 degrees to the cable. A small choil allows more leverage (without having to 'choke up') and therefore makes life easier. The inner sheath needs cutting carefully lengthways with the blade in line with the cable to carefully remove this layer without damaging the inner cores. The hold pictured by 2knife with the finger placed at the tip of the blade is perfect for this job, and a long choil makes it easier by far.
So basically, no choil design is quite right for my needs.
:grumpy:
I guess it all depends on how you use your knife and for what purpose that determines your feelings on this question.
Ian
After pulling cables through underground ducts etc using a draw rope, it sometimes has to be cut off rather than untied. I've found that a dropped edge or sharpening choil snags too often for my liking and therefore I don't do them anymore except on larger bowies etc where the blade is generally used further from the guard. With a straight transition, the blade can be quickly drawn across the rope without thinking about where to place it to avoid snagging.
As for length of choil...now it gets tricky for me. To strip the outer sheath of large armoured cables a lot of force is needed to cut down the length of it with the blade at 90 degrees to the cable. A small choil allows more leverage (without having to 'choke up') and therefore makes life easier. The inner sheath needs cutting carefully lengthways with the blade in line with the cable to carefully remove this layer without damaging the inner cores. The hold pictured by 2knife with the finger placed at the tip of the blade is perfect for this job, and a long choil makes it easier by far.
So basically, no choil design is quite right for my needs.
:grumpy:I guess it all depends on how you use your knife and for what purpose that determines your feelings on this question.
Ian
This is a great thread David.
I was going to give two examples of how the recessed ricasso can be a problem in user knives, they don't seem necessary now but I will anyway. These are admittedly situations that most us will seldom need a knife for.
Once while trailing some pack mules to a spike camp, a troublesome mule kept rearing back any breaking his pigging string. (the pigging string is a small rope used when tailing horses and mules together in a pack string, it is supposed to break in a panick situation so that a mule in trouble doesn't drag the whole string off the mountain or down river if he should stumble) The mule in this situation, Rawhide, learned he could rear back and break the string at will and head back home with all the other mules behind him in the string. The skinner would have to tie up his remaining string, turn his mount around and chase after the skidaddling mules down the narrow mountain trails, when they were caught up too, you needed to get off the trail into the rocks and tussucks and get around the mules to head them off. It was a real pain. After Rawhide broke the string two or three times I decided I needed to break him of the habbit. I would need to tie him solid to the pack of the animal in front of him until he learned he couldn't break loose. This is very dangerous, because animals can get hurt and you can really tear up some gear, but I had to do something. While I was tieing his lead to the pack in front of him he (you guessed it) reared back and pinched the fingers of one hand in the Knot. I thought I was going to loose some fingers right then and there. While I was franticly grabbing for my belt knife to cut the rope the mule behind Rawhide, equally as frustrated with Rawhide as I was, reached up and bit him in the ass, Rawhide let loose on the rope just enough for me to get my hand loose, I had to look down to check for all my fingers. If I had needed the knife to slash at the rope a recessed ricasso would certainly have complicated things. The morral of the story, don't become a mule skinner.
In commercial fishing, we were always taught to have a knife on the body in case a net should snag on a button or zipper on your slickers while the net was paying out of the boat. I can see where the recess could cause a problem.
Knife design is certainly personal thing. For many that read this forum the ABS school of thought is highly regarded. For many customers in other markets some of the highly regarded aspects of knife design in the ABS are not important. It's a good thing we're not all trying to make knives for the ABS style market and it's a good thing that all customers don't only want to buy that knife. A customer for every maker and a maker for every customer, I say. I am looking foreward to becoming a JS and MS smith from a performance standpoint as well as design, but I am sure that I will always make knives that may not fit those design standards. I would not call anyones design choices wrong.
I personally like the way moose look, though I would not call them good looking, and not the smartest. There is something about a massive bull in a misty swamp on a crisp fall morning. The largest one I ever guided for was 74 inches wide, truely an impressive thing to see.
Anyway it's a great discussion.
I was going to give two examples of how the recessed ricasso can be a problem in user knives, they don't seem necessary now but I will anyway. These are admittedly situations that most us will seldom need a knife for.
Once while trailing some pack mules to a spike camp, a troublesome mule kept rearing back any breaking his pigging string. (the pigging string is a small rope used when tailing horses and mules together in a pack string, it is supposed to break in a panick situation so that a mule in trouble doesn't drag the whole string off the mountain or down river if he should stumble) The mule in this situation, Rawhide, learned he could rear back and break the string at will and head back home with all the other mules behind him in the string. The skinner would have to tie up his remaining string, turn his mount around and chase after the skidaddling mules down the narrow mountain trails, when they were caught up too, you needed to get off the trail into the rocks and tussucks and get around the mules to head them off. It was a real pain. After Rawhide broke the string two or three times I decided I needed to break him of the habbit. I would need to tie him solid to the pack of the animal in front of him until he learned he couldn't break loose. This is very dangerous, because animals can get hurt and you can really tear up some gear, but I had to do something. While I was tieing his lead to the pack in front of him he (you guessed it) reared back and pinched the fingers of one hand in the Knot. I thought I was going to loose some fingers right then and there. While I was franticly grabbing for my belt knife to cut the rope the mule behind Rawhide, equally as frustrated with Rawhide as I was, reached up and bit him in the ass, Rawhide let loose on the rope just enough for me to get my hand loose, I had to look down to check for all my fingers. If I had needed the knife to slash at the rope a recessed ricasso would certainly have complicated things. The morral of the story, don't become a mule skinner.
In commercial fishing, we were always taught to have a knife on the body in case a net should snag on a button or zipper on your slickers while the net was paying out of the boat. I can see where the recess could cause a problem.
Knife design is certainly personal thing. For many that read this forum the ABS school of thought is highly regarded. For many customers in other markets some of the highly regarded aspects of knife design in the ABS are not important. It's a good thing we're not all trying to make knives for the ABS style market and it's a good thing that all customers don't only want to buy that knife. A customer for every maker and a maker for every customer, I say. I am looking foreward to becoming a JS and MS smith from a performance standpoint as well as design, but I am sure that I will always make knives that may not fit those design standards. I would not call anyones design choices wrong.
I personally like the way moose look, though I would not call them good looking, and not the smartest. There is something about a massive bull in a misty swamp on a crisp fall morning. The largest one I ever guided for was 74 inches wide, truely an impressive thing to see.
Anyway it's a great discussion.
I kind of like the way a moose looks too. It has the most impressive head gear of all to me. Charlie took this one a few years ago. It went 72 inches and left a pile of meat to be hauled out. From what Charlie said about moose you take care of business where they fall and work your way down from the top. Without horses, it all has to be packed out and there wasn't enough meat left on the bones of the moose to even stink. Charlies view was that they are animals that demand respect when you get in their personal space and taste pretty good when you get one to the table. It just takes a little work to get it to the point that you are comfortable trying to swallow it.
I went after one the following year. I think I had my expectations set too high after seeing Charlie's and didn't get a shot at one that I thought would be worth the work to haul out. Dinks were what the guide called them if I remember correctly. I do plan on going again though. There is something about seeing one of those things standing there shaking that head and flashing those palms that really gets my blood going. It is definitely on my bucket list.
I made a mistake on that hunt that I never made before nor have I made it since. I carried a knife that I figured wouldnt make any difference if I lost it rather than one that I knew I could depend on. I was carrying a Morseth Ozark hunter at the time and didnt want anything to happen to it. I had used it for many years and knew it could not be replaced with a similar knife. I suffered for two weeks with an inferior knife that I was uncomfortable using and had to sharpen several times. When I go back I wont give a second thought to carrying the best knife I can. (with a short recasso and no choil)
I went after one the following year. I think I had my expectations set too high after seeing Charlie's and didn't get a shot at one that I thought would be worth the work to haul out. Dinks were what the guide called them if I remember correctly. I do plan on going again though. There is something about seeing one of those things standing there shaking that head and flashing those palms that really gets my blood going. It is definitely on my bucket list.
I made a mistake on that hunt that I never made before nor have I made it since. I carried a knife that I figured wouldnt make any difference if I lost it rather than one that I knew I could depend on. I was carrying a Morseth Ozark hunter at the time and didnt want anything to happen to it. I had used it for many years and knew it could not be replaced with a similar knife. I suffered for two weeks with an inferior knife that I was uncomfortable using and had to sharpen several times. When I go back I wont give a second thought to carrying the best knife I can. (with a short recasso and no choil)
Not just bad meat("not great" is what I was told by my friend that shot it, so he was offloading the meat to anyone who would take it) but LOTS of it.
I'm with Bill on elk though, I find it quite tasty....truth be told though, put enough dried sour cherry compote on just about ANY LEAN meat including muskrat, and it is tasty.The only time that I have ever seen a moose in "real life" was off the trails in Jackson, Wyoming.....got within 20 feet of it.....a huge, dumb-looking unattractive animal....I thought the bison of Yellowstone were significantly more impressive.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Well...I held off until STeve started picking on moose meat
As far as the ricasso discussion I'm thinking that a tool is a highly personal choice and to each his own. For instance there are three of us who clean halibut side by side all day and all night, three different styles of knife, three methods of gutting, noone gets cut and the halibut slide off the hatch at about the same pace. It's not just big game that you end up head and shoulders in...I've lost my hat inside a fish several times.
My brother was towing on a barge in the current with a seine skiff last year and got sideways to the pull and started to fill the skiff with water...this all happened much faster than I could type the words...he cut the three inch towline seconds before the skiff swamped no sweat with a knife Adam made for him, the edge dropped down a good 3/4". A good friend and neighbor drowned in front of our house this summer due to someone NOT cutting a line when it should have been cut...performance can be life and death. I say hold your knife any way you want and get the job done efficiently and safely and learn from those around you. I personally prefer a dropped edge for ease of sharpening and I like my game dressing knives short. As a smith I appreciate a blade wider than the ricasso because it because it shows you forge not only your profiles but also your bevels.
As a parting shot (this is just a girl's opinion) I think moose meat is the best I've had, surpassed only by those reindeer Mr.Garsson mentioned see picture below taken on Atka Alaska. I'm with Mr. knapp... big bull moose have a majesty about them, prehistoric looking as they are.
As far as the ricasso discussion I'm thinking that a tool is a highly personal choice and to each his own. For instance there are three of us who clean halibut side by side all day and all night, three different styles of knife, three methods of gutting, noone gets cut and the halibut slide off the hatch at about the same pace. It's not just big game that you end up head and shoulders in...I've lost my hat inside a fish several times.
My brother was towing on a barge in the current with a seine skiff last year and got sideways to the pull and started to fill the skiff with water...this all happened much faster than I could type the words...he cut the three inch towline seconds before the skiff swamped no sweat with a knife Adam made for him, the edge dropped down a good 3/4". A good friend and neighbor drowned in front of our house this summer due to someone NOT cutting a line when it should have been cut...performance can be life and death. I say hold your knife any way you want and get the job done efficiently and safely and learn from those around you. I personally prefer a dropped edge for ease of sharpening and I like my game dressing knives short. As a smith I appreciate a blade wider than the ricasso because it because it shows you forge not only your profiles but also your bevels.
As a parting shot (this is just a girl's opinion) I think moose meat is the best I've had, surpassed only by those reindeer Mr.Garsson mentioned
see picture below taken on Atka Alaska. I'm with Mr. knapp... big bull moose have a majesty about them, prehistoric looking as they are.Attachments
OK, so here's my contribution to the moose gallery. I guided for both of these in 1999, my last year of guiding. I like to say the "small one" is 67 inches wide held by John Swiss on the right, the outfitter I was working for. He is gone now, highest respect, one great guy. The one on the left is the 74 inch one held by Jack Swiss his son. This picture was taken at main camp while I was still in spike camp.
This is probably going to sound obvious but to me knife design should be done according to the makers and target/customers objectives. If aesthetics is of the highest priority and design elements include a guard that will not tarnish and a recessed guard then they are very valid and important to that knife. If on the other hand a customers or makers idea of the perfect classic Bowie includes a brass guard and straight ricasso, then those elements are important to that knife, it's my job as a custom knife maker to make a knife that a customer wants to own. I am happy to make a knife for both of them, niether is wrong.
I have used the Fowler/Burke grip many times when it was needed, it is in my experience (and humble opinion) much safer to use in those elbow deep, blind situations than other grips. It helps me to cut only what I want to cut and stay away from things I don't want to cut. To answer one of Davids questions, I think I first learned of and used that grip in my early packer/guiding days in 1984 or maybe earlier while deer hunting in Minnesota. I don't remember ever seeing it published anywhere untill David posted it here. We commonly extend the index finger all the way to the end of the blade to cover the tip, keeping it from poking a hole into things it's not supposed to.
Just one mans opinion, regards Mark
This is probably going to sound obvious but to me knife design should be done according to the makers and target/customers objectives. If aesthetics is of the highest priority and design elements include a guard that will not tarnish and a recessed guard then they are very valid and important to that knife. If on the other hand a customers or makers idea of the perfect classic Bowie includes a brass guard and straight ricasso, then those elements are important to that knife, it's my job as a custom knife maker to make a knife that a customer wants to own. I am happy to make a knife for both of them, niether is wrong.
I have used the Fowler/Burke grip many times when it was needed, it is in my experience (and humble opinion) much safer to use in those elbow deep, blind situations than other grips. It helps me to cut only what I want to cut and stay away from things I don't want to cut. To answer one of Davids questions, I think I first learned of and used that grip in my early packer/guiding days in 1984 or maybe earlier while deer hunting in Minnesota. I don't remember ever seeing it published anywhere untill David posted it here. We commonly extend the index finger all the way to the end of the blade to cover the tip, keeping it from poking a hole into things it's not supposed to.
Just one mans opinion, regards Mark
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My comments regarding safety were directed toward this picture posted by David touting the benefit of the long ricasso, as distinct from the grip described by Bill Burke:
I know Stuart has since clarified that he only uses such a grip on certain types of cuts (and I am sure he manages to do so safely), but maybe those of you who do a lot of hunting could tell me what you think would happen to the index finger if the tip of the blade unexpectedly / unintentionally encountered bone whether you were elbow / arm / shoulder or head-deep inside a beastie? Like, if you were moving the tip forward through what you were cutting and the knife stopped when you didn't expect it?
Mark - that is an awesome pic!
Roger
I know Stuart has since clarified that he only uses such a grip on certain types of cuts (and I am sure he manages to do so safely), but maybe those of you who do a lot of hunting could tell me what you think would happen to the index finger if the tip of the blade unexpectedly / unintentionally encountered bone whether you were elbow / arm / shoulder or head-deep inside a beastie? Like, if you were moving the tip forward through what you were cutting and the knife stopped when you didn't expect it?
Mark - that is an awesome pic!
Roger
Yes Roger, I would never hold the knife like that for a thrusting cut. I only ever use it for "shaving" cuts. I just like being able to get close to the edge for precision.
It's the reason that I like a Strider sng for a folder and also why I've never like Benchmades.
For the record, I use this type of knife everyday for this type of cut and have never even had a close call let alone cut myself.
It's the reason that I like a Strider sng for a folder and also why I've never like Benchmades.
For the record, I use this type of knife everyday for this type of cut and have never even had a close call let alone cut myself.
To me, the ricasso on this old Clyde Fischer knife has a nice stylistic appeal, but i wonder if it would act as a "hook" in some uses? It does look a little scary for finger on the choil holds.
I was told that it was supposed to act as hook for coffee pots and dutch oven lids on campfires, as Clyde built his knives for cowboys.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Slight diversion.. Here's one that Ed Fowler once pointed out to me, (Thanks Ed!) - an early Loveless design. It has a nice handmade "original" look about it. Doesnt look anything "uniform" as most Loveless knives later became. Great styling. Coop photo'd it at the New York Show a few years ago.
"What happens when the tip of the knife stubs into a bone and stops the knife and you have your index finger ahead of the guard?
For most folks our second finger will be against the guard and will stop the hand from sliding up the knife. Since the index finger is attached to our hand it will also stop.
Like I stated earlier if the knife is pushed past the guard the guard will turn the cutting edge away from your fingers or palm the spine of the blades slides down the palm of your hand and the edge is away from flesh, unless you are really doing something I have never seen before.
For most folks our second finger will be against the guard and will stop the hand from sliding up the knife. Since the index finger is attached to our hand it will also stop.
Like I stated earlier if the knife is pushed past the guard the guard will turn the cutting edge away from your fingers or palm the spine of the blades slides down the palm of your hand and the edge is away from flesh, unless you are really doing something I have never seen before.
Also doesn't have a 1"+choil/ricasso area which is what you started off with.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
I see your point, I would like a little more room for a finger of that caliber, it looks a little close to me.
Unless most folks are really put together differently from me, there is a good deal of ability for index finger and middle finger to separate. Can you make a peace sign Ed? Assuming you wanted to, I mean? I know I can. My guess is that, given that your finger is about a millimeter away from being cut as it rests (again, see pic), and unexpected stop combined with the natural ability of your fingers to separate (combined, perhaps, with a blood-and-fat slicked blade) will operate to put that finger in danger.
That's just how I see it. I don't presume to speak for most folks.
Roger