I enjoy going to the desert and observing wildlife more than hunting the wildlife. But I have no problem at all with trapping, hunting, or fishing for the most part. They are necessary for wildlife management, great cultural traditions, and healthy, fun outdoor pursuits.
One question...
- Thread starter kaor
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I enjoy going to the desert and observing wildlife more than hunting the wildlife. But I have no problem at all with trapping, hunting, or fishing for the most part. They are necessary for wildlife management, great cultural traditions, and healthy, fun outdoor pursuits.
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I enjoy the hunt whether I actually hunt or not, if you know what I mean. Funny, same thing goes for fishing.
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An animal hunted with a bow also has a greater chance to suffer than does one hunted with a gun. Yes it is more of a challenge to the hunter and Bow hunters are in my eyes are the elite of hunters, but if you have ever heard the bleat of a wounded deer you would appreciate where a scoped rifle has its place in the feild of hunting.
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Again I say If you ever Hunted you would understand that many who engage in this activity have a greater respect for these animals than you ever could. I Hate poachers and hunters who use unethical means to get trophys but someone who hunts a lion or elephant or bear I mean someone who truly hunts it, spending days tracking the animal, learning its ways, geting into its mind, then finally gets to a position to take the animal in a clean shot. This is someone who has respect for the animals and is in touch with human nature, not the pseudo philisophical human that society tries to pretend we are, but the true nature of our origins. we are predators, the top of the food change thanks to years of developing and refining skills and tools, and those who chose to let their teeth and claws go dull by turning their back on what we are are in my eyes turning themselves into prey.
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You know I honestly know what your saying on this front...I tracked a deer for about 3 miles once, I could see it was heavy from the track and as I came to a ridge I thought I lost it in a thicket. When I poked my head over the top, there he was, a Huge Mule Bull, I would lie and tell you that I counted tips but I was so enamored by it, all I could do was stare. It was as big as a Tule Elk and the black to brown contrast on it was ridiculously grand. I just watched it look at me and walk away. I had a rifle on my shoulder (.44 Mag Levergun) but it wasn't even a thought about killing that deer. I have been invited alot to hunt deer, antelope, chukar and pheasant since then but to kill those things doesn't interest me in the least. No sport, the meat isn't as good as feral pig or boar so I usually just sneak around the mountains to see those animals do their thing. I certainly don't want to be the guy to put one down to see the rack over the fireplace. But I would (and have) fight for that guys right to do it.
I am going to poke around a bit and see if I can dig up a pic of a central californian Elk Herd I came across on the way to Paso Robles.
Anyway, that pic is great-nothing like a white winter.
EMSrescueguy, the simple fact that something takes a lot of human endurance or perserverance to achieve does not make it a morally worthy goal. It does not matter how many days a trophy hunter spends stalking and tracking an animal, because in the end they deliberately kill the animal for the sake of their own gratuitous pleasure.
Think about it the principle of it this way. Does a serial killer, who spends days or weeks or months pursuing their victim, getting to know them, learning their habits, getting "inside their minds", and who then commits murder, have respect for their victim? The answer is no, they don't, because they are simply treaty another living being as a means to their own, selfish ends.
When asked about their murders, most serial killers explain themselves in terms very similar to those which you use to justify trophy hunting. The blame their victim for the murder, saying "well, they shouldn't have been there in the first place", or "I may be a predator, but I'm just following my natural instincts", or "I'm strong, and they were weak".
Final point: please don't confuse the above argument as implying that serial murderers and trophy hunters are morally equivalent, because it does not imply that. The human victims of serial killers hold an infinitely greater moral worth than any game animal, but it is nevertheless the case that these game animals are living purposeful and meaningful lives and deserve to be treated as such.
Think about it the principle of it this way. Does a serial killer, who spends days or weeks or months pursuing their victim, getting to know them, learning their habits, getting "inside their minds", and who then commits murder, have respect for their victim? The answer is no, they don't, because they are simply treaty another living being as a means to their own, selfish ends.
When asked about their murders, most serial killers explain themselves in terms very similar to those which you use to justify trophy hunting. The blame their victim for the murder, saying "well, they shouldn't have been there in the first place", or "I may be a predator, but I'm just following my natural instincts", or "I'm strong, and they were weak".
Final point: please don't confuse the above argument as implying that serial murderers and trophy hunters are morally equivalent, because it does not imply that. The human victims of serial killers hold an infinitely greater moral worth than any game animal, but it is nevertheless the case that these game animals are living purposeful and meaningful lives and deserve to be treated as such.
Unless you live on a veggies were do you think your hamburger comes from. Do you eat chickens or turkey? Check out the life they live just to be eaten. Eating meat is not wrong, just a fact of life, killing just to kill is. Go tell a pack of wolves they are wrong for killing and EATING an elk, or are they just animals that don't know better? That may be the case but killing game for food has worked since the beginning of time and I guess i'll just go with the flow
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Do they really though? Why? Because we use tools, have a language and therefore are implied intelligent?
I have news for you, people take away more than they give on any day in everyway. Myself included, we are a collective blight all we can do is hope that someday we find equilibrium with everything else that occupies this space.
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Your thinly veiled disclaimer is the equivalent to a racist who says "Dont get me wrong, some of my beat freinds are black"
You do at least on some level equate hunters and murderers or you wouldnt have posted it. you believe this because you understand neither.
I have thought Of a million arguments on how wrong i think you are but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree
after all "Online arguments are like the special olimpics, Even if you win you are still Retarded."
You know I honestly know what your saying on this front...I tracked a deer for about 3 miles once, I could see it was heavy from the track and as I came to a ridge I thought I lost it in a thicket. When I poked my head over the top, there he was, a Huge Mule Bull, I would lie and tell you that I counted tips but I was so enamored by it, all I could do was stare. It was as big as a Tule Elk and the black to brown contrast on it was ridiculously grand. I just watched it look at me and walk away. I had a rifle on my shoulder (.44 Mag Levergun) but it wasn't even a thought about killing that deer. I have been invited alot to hunt deer, antelope, chukar and pheasant since then but to kill those things doesn't interest me in the least. No sport, the meat isn't as good as feral pig or boar so I usually just sneak around the mountains to see those animals do their thing. I certainly don't want to be the guy to put one down to see the rack over the fireplace. But I would (and have) fight for that guys right to do it.
I am going to poke around a bit and see if I can dig up a pic of a central californian Elk Herd I came across on the way to Paso Robles.
Anyway, that pic is great-nothing like a white winter.
Really nice photo, damn I never saw so many of them at one place. If I see only one now and then Im happy man.Good thing about nature in Croatia that we dont really have animals wich can kill you ( bears are really rare and live only in some parts of my country), we have only 1 poisons snake, maybe 1 spider, wolfs are not man killing ( at least there isnt 1 record about it ) so you can enjoy nature 100%.But there is one danger, there is small chance that you will step on landmine wich is left ower from the war. (99% of this areas are marked or something but there is allways 1%- just was on news that Italian turist was wondering in woods and step on 1, hapends really rarelly but still ).
Kaor, I live 25 miles outside of the city of Washington DC, and I can see that many whitetail deer in my backyard. So can my neighbors.
They have gotten like packs of Rats, and have to be hunted to thin their population.
Hopefully you can see where it would lead, if they were not hunted and thinned out.
Hunting and Fishing is well regulated in North America, with "hunting seasons" for each type of animal, and limits on the amount you can take.
You must buy a liscence to hunt or fish, and we have Natural Resources Police who oversee and keep their eye out for illegal hunting.
If a species is overpopulated, like our deer, then they watch the numbers, and should raise the limits to keep the popualtions in check. Due to some of our over-zealous "liberals" who are anti-hunting, we are now faced with deer over-population, inbreeding, and we think disease will shortly follow.
They think they are "protecting" another mammal, but they are doing more harm than good for the species.
If it is a Species with a lower population, the offiicals will impose limits, or even ban the hunting of that species altogether.
There is no blood thirsty slaughter of animals going on, as some people would lead you to believe. I am NOT even a hunter, but I can see the truth.
Whether you eat meat, or not, that is your personal choice, just like your choice of religion. We respect people's freedom to choose. Some people choose not to hunt, and buy their food at a store. Others choose to plant a garden and some choose to hunt. There is room for eveyone's beliefs.
But I hope that you can better understand the need for hunting, at least in North America. As they are hunting, it is good to know that the animals are being used for a good purpose, to feed people.
A lot of people on my street have a freezer full of deer meat.
And there is plenty more where that came from.
Codger_64
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I hunt. I enjoy it and always have. I butchered twelve deer this past season. And a lot of other fish and game. It adds a lot of good, clean, healthful meat to my family's diet each year, just like the chickens, cattle, and hogs here on my pastures. I also eat plants, both wild and cultivated. I and my family are omnivores. I don't 'trophy hunt', but to each his own. Neither do I 'graze' and claim to be a herbivore. But if someone else wishes to, that is fine. Where I have a problem is when they assume an air of moral superiority from abstaining from consuming meat. And then use glue, leather, cosmetics, and ten thousand other items containg animal derived products.
I 'wildcraft', 'woodsrun', or however you want to describe time spent outdoors. I also hunt when game is in season, and I fish. I don't always do these things, but to me the knowledge, and the skill to do them is important to me and my family. Just yesterday, I was driving a backroad along the Tennessee River on my way to a consturcion job I am doing for a commercial fisherman, and I saw a flock of nearly thirty wild turkeys next to the road. Further on, I sat at a stop sign and watched a herd of seven deer cavort and play in a field. I watched them for nearly fifteen minutes, and never wished for a gun, or for it to be deer season. I just enjoyed watching them. I have, over the years, done the same thing during hunting season. Killing an animal is, to me, serious business, not something to be done lightly. At the same time, I believe that is what my Creator put them here for. My 'owner's manual' states quite clearly "kill and eat these". And here in America, hunting is a tradition, though not with everyone. It has been in my family for many, many generations. As has been farming, both row crops and livestock.
Do I consider it a 'sport' to hunt and fish? Not in the sense that soccer is a sport. It is more. It is a connection with my roots, my heritage, an intimate connection with nature where I, as a predator, exercise rightful dominion over lesser animals in a responsible and respectful manner. As I have a responsibility to manage my cattle herd, to treat the cattle in such a way as to balance their needs with the needs of the land, and with my needs, so too do I manage the wildlife on my farm. As a hunter, my money for many years has gone to support wildlife restoration, both animals and fish, and their habitat. These have to be in balance, just like my herd of cattle and their pastures. I am yet to hear of a vegitarian buying a huinting license to donate money to sustain wildlife management. You see, our game populations near the beginning of the 1900's had been decimated by market hunters providing meat to the cities where non-hunters lived. Sportsmen (hunters) began passing laws and donating money to restore the game animals. Today we have an "Embarrasment of riches" in the way of wildlife, more than in our recorded history. And it takes hunters, and fishermen, regardless of their motivation, to keep those populations in check and provide funding for the wildlife agencies whis monitor the populations, set harvest seasons and limits, and administer those laws. Simply choosing not to hunt is doing the wildlife no great favor if you also abstain from involving yourself in the responsibility to participate in the proper management. That would be like me filling my pasture with cattle and not managing the herd, allowing them to overpopulate and destroy the pasture, and become malnourished and diseased. What great favor is that? Where is the respect?
Codger who proudly wears leather shoes and belts and uses Elmer's glue
PS: A friend of mine in Mexico City gave me a great saying- pocos burros, más mazorcas de maíz
Fewer burros, more corncobs ... for me!
I 'wildcraft', 'woodsrun', or however you want to describe time spent outdoors. I also hunt when game is in season, and I fish. I don't always do these things, but to me the knowledge, and the skill to do them is important to me and my family. Just yesterday, I was driving a backroad along the Tennessee River on my way to a consturcion job I am doing for a commercial fisherman, and I saw a flock of nearly thirty wild turkeys next to the road. Further on, I sat at a stop sign and watched a herd of seven deer cavort and play in a field. I watched them for nearly fifteen minutes, and never wished for a gun, or for it to be deer season. I just enjoyed watching them. I have, over the years, done the same thing during hunting season. Killing an animal is, to me, serious business, not something to be done lightly. At the same time, I believe that is what my Creator put them here for. My 'owner's manual' states quite clearly "kill and eat these". And here in America, hunting is a tradition, though not with everyone. It has been in my family for many, many generations. As has been farming, both row crops and livestock.
Do I consider it a 'sport' to hunt and fish? Not in the sense that soccer is a sport. It is more. It is a connection with my roots, my heritage, an intimate connection with nature where I, as a predator, exercise rightful dominion over lesser animals in a responsible and respectful manner. As I have a responsibility to manage my cattle herd, to treat the cattle in such a way as to balance their needs with the needs of the land, and with my needs, so too do I manage the wildlife on my farm. As a hunter, my money for many years has gone to support wildlife restoration, both animals and fish, and their habitat. These have to be in balance, just like my herd of cattle and their pastures. I am yet to hear of a vegitarian buying a huinting license to donate money to sustain wildlife management. You see, our game populations near the beginning of the 1900's had been decimated by market hunters providing meat to the cities where non-hunters lived. Sportsmen (hunters) began passing laws and donating money to restore the game animals. Today we have an "Embarrasment of riches" in the way of wildlife, more than in our recorded history. And it takes hunters, and fishermen, regardless of their motivation, to keep those populations in check and provide funding for the wildlife agencies whis monitor the populations, set harvest seasons and limits, and administer those laws. Simply choosing not to hunt is doing the wildlife no great favor if you also abstain from involving yourself in the responsibility to participate in the proper management. That would be like me filling my pasture with cattle and not managing the herd, allowing them to overpopulate and destroy the pasture, and become malnourished and diseased. What great favor is that? Where is the respect?
Codger who proudly wears leather shoes and belts and uses Elmer's glue
PS: A friend of mine in Mexico City gave me a great saying- pocos burros, más mazorcas de maíz
Fewer burros, more corncobs ... for me!
Codger_64
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Alright, I've probably already said more than I should, but here is a bit more. I teach my children and grandchildren to hunt and fish. I teach them that they have a duty and obligation to the game, not to cause undue suffering, not to waste, or to kill wantonly, or for the sake of killing. "You kill it, you eat it". I feel that not only does this give them a better perspective into their role in wildlife stewardship, but a more realistic view of their own place in the world, and their own mortality.
Part and parcel with teaching them to hunt responsibly, is teaching them to use their equipment to best advantage. Use a bow, rifle or shotgun of sufficient power and range to kill cleanly and in a humane manner. Know their own limitations and that of their equipment, and know their quarry's habits and anatomy. Know the quarry's habitat, and how the animal fits into the ecology of that habitat.
IMHO, the children of hunters and fishermen have a much more realistic view of themselves, other people, and their own place in the world. Death is not a cartoon event where "x's" appear over eyes.
There is no "joy" in killing, and it is not the end event of a successful hunt. The quarry then has to be cleaned, and reduced to edible portions, and eaten. Until that is done, the responsibility has not been fulfilled. Yes, they have to also clean their own harvest. They have to smell the blood and offal, cut the viscera out and get their hands bloody. And know that the meat they see come to the table, whether from the store or the field, was once a living, breathing animal, and did not magically appear on a foam tray covered with shrink wrap, or in a McDonald's wrapper. If this causes them to not want to hunt again, that is fine. If they find the complete process involved with following their responsibilities to the animal (and themselves as the successful hunter or fisher) repulsive, and even decide to become a vegetarian, that is fine too.
But they, like myself, and my father, and my grandfather, and his, invariably assume the tradition and heritage, and the duties and obligations that go along with it. And as a result, for the rest of their lives, they have an even greater respect for life, both human and animal. And they are more attuned to their natural world, enjoying the great outdoors in many ways which have nothing to do with hunting or fishing. And when, as has been the case for generations, they are required to take a human life, the same realities apply. Except for the skinning and eating part.
Codger
Part and parcel with teaching them to hunt responsibly, is teaching them to use their equipment to best advantage. Use a bow, rifle or shotgun of sufficient power and range to kill cleanly and in a humane manner. Know their own limitations and that of their equipment, and know their quarry's habits and anatomy. Know the quarry's habitat, and how the animal fits into the ecology of that habitat.
IMHO, the children of hunters and fishermen have a much more realistic view of themselves, other people, and their own place in the world. Death is not a cartoon event where "x's" appear over eyes.
There is no "joy" in killing, and it is not the end event of a successful hunt. The quarry then has to be cleaned, and reduced to edible portions, and eaten. Until that is done, the responsibility has not been fulfilled. Yes, they have to also clean their own harvest. They have to smell the blood and offal, cut the viscera out and get their hands bloody. And know that the meat they see come to the table, whether from the store or the field, was once a living, breathing animal, and did not magically appear on a foam tray covered with shrink wrap, or in a McDonald's wrapper. If this causes them to not want to hunt again, that is fine. If they find the complete process involved with following their responsibilities to the animal (and themselves as the successful hunter or fisher) repulsive, and even decide to become a vegetarian, that is fine too.
But they, like myself, and my father, and my grandfather, and his, invariably assume the tradition and heritage, and the duties and obligations that go along with it. And as a result, for the rest of their lives, they have an even greater respect for life, both human and animal. And they are more attuned to their natural world, enjoying the great outdoors in many ways which have nothing to do with hunting or fishing. And when, as has been the case for generations, they are required to take a human life, the same realities apply. Except for the skinning and eating part.
Codger
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I couldn't agree more :thumbup: :thumbup: their purpose and meaning is to provide sustenance to myself and my family. Chris
This thread has gone flipping nuts after being gone from the forum for only a day.
There is a really simple way to state this...
Humans are omnivorous, and have been hunting since the emergence of good ol' Lucy, if not long before. Without hunting humans wouldn't have evolved the capacity of speech, or community, tool making, (whether it be a knife or a car), or our capacity for abstract though, intelligence and memory.
So the reason your here, and I'm here is because our ancestors hunted, then I see no reason why we should stop.
Your right, the prey don't have a fair chance, and if they did or ever had, you wouldn't be here.
And for vegetarians or vegans, it's fine you've made that choice, but speaking from a ecologically friendly view point, It would be extremely destructive to the worlds ecosystem if were were all to go veggie.
There is a really simple way to state this...
Humans are omnivorous, and have been hunting since the emergence of good ol' Lucy, if not long before. Without hunting humans wouldn't have evolved the capacity of speech, or community, tool making, (whether it be a knife or a car), or our capacity for abstract though, intelligence and memory.
So the reason your here, and I'm here is because our ancestors hunted, then I see no reason why we should stop.
Your right, the prey don't have a fair chance, and if they did or ever had, you wouldn't be here.
And for vegetarians or vegans, it's fine you've made that choice, but speaking from a ecologically friendly view point, It would be extremely destructive to the worlds ecosystem if were were all to go veggie.
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...Or to put it another way, troll boy got everyone's goat with his ill thought out initial post & strawman follow up arguments :jerkit:
Everybody wants to eat the burger but nobody wants to kill the cow right? I love animals - probably more than the next guy. I don't enjoy killing them - but sometimes it is a blessing - whether from the standpoint of needing to feed one's family or from the standpoint of preventing overpopulation and die back.
Everybody wants to eat the burger but nobody wants to kill the cow right? I love animals - probably more than the next guy. I don't enjoy killing them - but sometimes it is a blessing - whether from the standpoint of needing to feed one's family or from the standpoint of preventing overpopulation and die back.
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned (especially since this is the Wilderness & Survival forum) is that in a long term survival situation, you could not survive as a vegetarian except in very limited circumstances. Certainly not in a cold climate.
I must say, though, that I give the guy credit for toughing it out amongst all you carnivores.
Doc
I must say, though, that I give the guy credit for toughing it out amongst all you carnivores.
Doc
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What's so ill thought out about asking if anyone shares his view? "Troll boy" has REPEATEDLY tried to keep this thread on the original topic, and made it very clear he wasn't condeming anyone. The guy ended up defending his personal opinion against attacks that had nothing to do with his original question.