One question...

Koar, just to explain a little about hunting, especially herbavores such as deer, in North America.
In terms of human history, North America was sparsley populated until the last few hundred years, unlike your part of the world that has seen civilizations come and go over thousands of years.
The "settlers" , the pioneers who crossed the vast open wilderness, of north America were in constant competition with the natural predators, like wolves, coyotes, big cats and bears. They saw these other predators as a threat to their survival. Wolves, Coyotes, and Bears were hunted mercilessly down to pitiful numbers, in order to allow the pioneers and settlers the ability to hunt the prey animals that normally would have been the wolves dinner.
It was simply a matter of survival.
Once farming and agriculture took hold, the predators were hunted down even more, as they were threats to livestock.
As things became more civilized, we ended up with a lot of Prey animals, like deer, and very few, if any, natural predators.
others have already mentioned it, but, I want to explain it further, these prey animals will and have overpopulated themselves and they MUST be hunted and their populations culled.
The feral boars are actually not even natural to the environment, and are very very destructive, which is why in many palces they can be hunted year round, with no limit. They are considered big Rats.
I live on the East Coast of the US, which most think is all concrete and cities.
We have so many deer, due to many years of strict hunting laws, that they need to be culled. It is also bad for their species to restrict the hunt. Our deer population is losing size and mass due to overpopulation and inbreeding. What would have been a 200 lb. buck 20 years ago, is now 150 lb. or even as low as 120 lb. Some of them are more like hunting a greyhound dog than a deer.
Once the population is culled, and the gene pool re-invigerated with diversity, the species will get back to a normal size and be all around healthier.

This is just one facet of hunting, population control. Prey animals need natural predators to ensure the health of their species, sounds counter-intuitive, but, the more you kill, within reason, actually the better off they are.

I agreed in the beginning there may have been a set-up or troll in this thread. Which is why I abstained from posting at all. It appears that due to difference in timezones and a slight language barrier may have had something to do with it.

With all that said , about population control, let me now say I do not hunt.
I have hunted, I know how to hunt, and don't have any qualms about killing and gutting an animal. I can clean a fish blindfolded having grown up on the water. Catch and release is nothing new to me, our family has always kept the big ones and thrown the little ones back, wish everyone had done the same long ago.
Hunting/Fishing is simply the direct method of feeding yourself. Cut out the slaughterhouse and grocery store. If someone gets a little adrenaline boost out of it, good for them!
I don't get a rush out of hunting like some people do. Mostly because I am impatient. (Don't ask why I am fisherman). To me hunting is more mechanical, a means to an end. It's like building a shelter or making a campfire, sure I feel good knowing I can take care of myself, but that TV image of the hunter just isn't me.
My neighbors do their duty culling our deer population, and I have considering taking a couple myself, since we are having such a problem with the deer, but, I wouldn't be doing to make myself "feel good" in a hedonistic sort of way, it would be to stock up on some lean meat, and assist with population control. If someone does get a thrill from the stalk and the hunt, thats great, it's in our human DNA, from the past million years, telling us "Meat=survival".
I have friends and neighbors who now embrace their bow hunting a lot more, because the rifles and slug guns just weren't giving them the same satisfaction, and/or because they also want to hone their skills, just like someone thinning their 60 lb. hiking pack down to 40 lbs. and finding a way to do more with less. And that is fine too.

I am actually surprised that Hunting wasn't written into our US Constitution as a Basic Right. perhaps it was so taken for grnated they never even gave it a thought, it's the natural progression of things.

When I go into the wilderness, I have my food issues squared away, for the most part. I don't go for weeks on end, and would never plan a trip where I would depend solely upon game to keep me alive, mostly because there are hunting seasons, legal means of hunting, and I wouldn't want to be harvesting animals for immediate nourishment, and breaking the law.

I support legal ethical hunting. And like anything else, there are a few idiots out there that give it a bad name. Thee are also a number of people that are removed so far from nature, that they don't understand anymore.
I don't mean city people or couch potatoes, either. There are many people who visit parks and the outdoors, but they view them like they are artwork in a museum, behind a rope, not to be touched, these folks are too, also, removed from nature.

Now, to bring this all back around to the beginning of my reply:
The tree-huggers who vote for excessively restrictive hunting are actually the ones doing the most damage to the prey species. With no natural predators their species is not as robust. With overpopultion, these species destroy plant life and make a mess of the environment.
As with most things there is a happy medium. Hunting animals to extinction would be dumb. But, on the flip side, not hunting them at all, and allowing their species to overpopulate is irresponsible and negligent.

I hope this helps explain WHY hunting is needed, and why hunters are actually better for a given species than the tree-huggers.
 
I cannot believe this crap........

HUNTING IS NECESSARY...PERIOD

Overpopulation is a serious problem, hunting is population control. I do not hunt these days as I am too busy, but I have had to kill to survive and there is no better form of concentrated food than meat.

Do I like killing animals? no way, but it is necessary. You think it's terrible popping cute squirrels? Well, if those squirrels weighed 20 lbs they'd be hunting you...


Also, don't tell everyone that you don't believe in killing animals and then go get a HAMBURGER or go get a Deli Sandwich or get lunch meats, tuna, chicken, etc. Because all you are is a, well you know.. Hell you should not even eat eggs as thy are baby animals:D

I could live on this guy for a month

giant-feral-pig.jpg

Ok for something like this monster, I would be willing to break my rule about hunting with a bow. FORGET THE BOW! Give me a Barrett 50cal! :eek: :D
 
It is a little known fact that the word vegetarian is an old indian word, it's original meaning was "lousy hunter".

Chris that is hilarious!

but, without a smiley face someone might take it the wrong way.

Urban Legend-False
Andy Rooney on Vegetarians:
Vegetarian — that's an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter."
Evidently Andy Rooney is personally responsible for a ton of these little urban legends.
"Did you ever wonder why......."


Unlike the scientific definition of ROADKILL:

Naturally bred, organically-raised, free-range, automotively-tenderized beltway beast burger.

Automotively tenderized! he he he.

:D :D :D :D
 
Yeah, skunk I added a smiley, I didn't know who said it first, I saw it on a bumper sticker, and I was kinda serious.:o

Not that I actually believed it was an old indian word :rolleyes: :D

Hunting is so much a part of my upbringing and culture it is even condoned in my bible. I don't believe in being cruel or causing pain and suffering but a hunter is what I am, and this coming october I will restock my freezer with the Lords bounty. I obey game laws, I take what I need and what I can use and I don't waste, and I am not going to suffer idiots that don't know what they are talking about. Chris
 
JH,
I know quite well what you are talking about, silliness. Hunting is not about being fair, some stylized compition between man and beast, dead is dead whether you kill it with a bow or a rifle.

JH, have you ever hunted anything, with a bow or a rifle. Most people that are like you and believe how unfair hunting with a rifle is have never even hunted. All that BS you spew about trophy hunters is media blather, all of the trophy hunters I know, and I know a few, all of them process the meat and give it away, the herd needs to be thinned, they enjoy matching themselves against the animal and the meat gets used, what is the problem? I have never known, seen or heard of someone killing animals for the sport of it, other hunters would not allow that, PERIOD. You know before you start spouting drivel about a certain subject you should at least have a little knowledge about it. Chris
 
I love hunting period. Not because I like to kill. It just happens that killing is a necessary part of hunting. Hunting is spiritual and primal. It revives our preditor instincts. Predators (in the wild) don't kill because they like to...they kill because it is necessary to survive. The jails are filled with those that 'get off on killing'.

Yes, we could get by without hunting to survive because there are corporations who efficiently dispatch 'our prey'. But there is still the issue of population control and game management....hunting also serves an important role to control populations.
 
Hey Guys...

Theres room for All of God's Creatures...

Right beside the Mashed Potatos...

I look at it this way...

Theres two completely different kinds of animals...

Ones that taste good,, and Ones that don't...

Animals were put here for a reason,,, and it wasn't to look at them...

Bushcraft walks hand in hand with killing animals, it's as simple as that..

ttyle

Eric
O/ST


I really have to take exception to this statement. I've NEVER found an animal that didn't taste good.....with enough tabasco sauce.....:o

Seriously, why do people worry about this kind of thing? Don't like hunting, don't do it. There's certainly nothing wrong with it, and having observed both hunters and protesters in action, I'd MUCH rather be identified as a hunter. Which I am.

The killing is the logical conclusion of the chase. The chase is for food, but it also hones many other skills that are useful in the woods.
 
why not hunt with paintball? You would have hunter feeling and there would be 1 more deer in woods :D

1000 car/deer accidents in and around Ottawa, Ontario. The population levels are excessive due to the decline in hunting due to excessive regulation and demonizing like you're doing.

B
 
Kaor,

I don't think anyone here objects to youe deisre to get out an dview nature without killing any of it. Actually for most of us who hunt this is the majority of time we spend int he forest as well. Hunting season is short, a small part of anyone's wilderness experience.

Its just that hunting in the US is so absolutely necessary for the reasons several have outlined and most of us are tired of hearing that it shouldn't be done.

I'm sure that if you had deer eating in urban parks and suburban ornamental shrubs, getting killed by the thousands every year on the roadways all over Croatia that you would see it differently. Road accidents are a serious problem in my native Pennsylvania. You won't meet many people who haven't hit one, or several in a lifetime. My brother is a police officer in PA. They have a special .410 shotgun they use for putting deer down that have been hit INSIDE TOWN. Outside town they just use their service pistols. We have no shortage of deer in PA. Mac
 
Killing animals? Well my wife "put down" 40,000+ animals while working as an Animal Services Officer in about 3 years. Does that count?
 
JH,
I know quite well what you are talking about, silliness. Hunting is not about being fair, some stylized compition between man and beast, dead is dead whether you kill it with a bow or a rifle.

JH, have you ever hunted anything, with a bow or a rifle. Most people that are like you and believe how unfair hunting with a rifle is have never even hunted. All that BS you spew about trophy hunters is media blather, all of the trophy hunters I know, and I know a few, all of them process the meat and give it away, the herd needs to be thinned, they enjoy matching themselves against the animal and the meat gets used, what is the problem? I have never known, seen or heard of someone killing animals for the sport of it, other hunters would not allow that, PERIOD. You know before you start spouting drivel about a certain subject you should at least have a little knowledge about it. Chris

Hey Chris, I wasn't trying to make you look bad, but since we have people posting from the 4 corners of the world ( a good thing) I didn't want to have anyone get mixed up. No disrespect intended.

I think the issue with this line of thought (Not a "fair" fight) is that people who use those arguments are thinking "sports competition" like football or baseball, and somehow thinking the sides need to be even??
That's all I can think of.

Outdoor "sports" like hunting and fishing get lumped in with "Team" sports, then people think the sides aren't fair?
I don't think that way, and I don't get the argument.
Sometimes game gets away, sometimes fish don't bite.

It's just as fair for you to shoot a deer (legally, in season, of course) as it is for a Cougar to pounce on someone riding their mountain bike in Utah.

I think it boils down to something very basic:
Life is NOT fair. There are people who think it "should" be, but those of us who understand that truely nothing is fair, don't tend to think like, well, sheeple.

The other thing people are misconstrued about: They think you just line up the target in the cross hairs and pull the trigger it falls down, in place, and you walk up and get your picture taken. ;)

Little do they know the work involved.
 
and thats the unfortunate thruth, many just see hunting as a slaughter, and of course its not. Some need to realize that theres more to it.
 
well, fwiw, i consider myself a hunter....

and i havent shot anything yet!!

i enjoy being outdoors with my friends, the stalk, the wait.

ive always enjoyed shooting and knives, and when i get the chance to be outdoors with both and use them i take it.

the ethics of hunting can be argued to death on both sides, each with legitimate arguments. there are many responsible hunters, the vast majority in fact.

there are also many who are against hunting that behave unethically/immorally in other aspects of their lives. (peta)

i will never take a shot beyond my ability, and wont kill anything i dont intend to eat.
 
I'm not one who hunts often 'cause I'm a just too empathetic for the animals.... (heart and head too soft :)

But in a survival situation, I'll be out trying to smack meat with a stick in a very short time.

I would point out to the original poster that this is the SURVIVAL forum. In the Northern latitudes, you can't survive half of the year unless you are willing to kill for food. The only other way to survive is of course, to go to the grocery store.

Some might talk about how they go into the woods and don't have to kill and that's fine. It's not survival, it's camping. I would like to see most vegan and even vegetarian spend a fall in the bush with no groceries. Carniverous ways can develop quite quickly in a species that is CARNIVEROUS!

(Ever notice which animals have their eyes on the front of their heads? Canines, felines, ursines, homo sapiens)
 
Omnivores.
Bears, Pigs, Raccoons, Primates, and Man come to mind.
We have survived this long because our diets our wide and varied.

In fact our systems need both meat and vegetation, in balance, to work most efficiently.

If someone told me they ONLY ate meat, all year long, and nothing else, I would look at them as strangley as I do a Vegan.
I would look at them even more strangley if they protested Farmers for killing potatoes and corn plants.

"Save the Beets!" :p
 
Let me state my moral objection to trophy hunting in a couple of short paragraphs. The problem I have with Trophy hunting (not hunting for food, which is an entirely separate issue) is that it demonstrates an impoverished moral sense in the hunter. By killing an animal simply for the enjoyment of tracking it, stalking it, lining it up etc., the hunter demonstrates an inability to empathise with a fellow living creature, and to recognise that, like him / herself, that animal is living a purposeful and therefore meaningful life.

In other words, the hunter is relating to the hunted animal in exactly the same manner that another predator animal would relate to it, that is, as merely a means to their own ends rather than as an end in itself. But one of the defining features of being human (recognized by philosophers extending back at least to Aristotle) is our ability to establish value independent of something's instrumental value, or value "to us". This is what might be termed a 'moral sense', and by their actions trophy hunters are demonstrating a distinct absence of this 'moral sense'. To put it the way the Greeks might have, by treating other living creatures as purely a means to their own enjoyment, they are behaving in a less than fully 'human' way. Another way to put it is that by their actions they are negating their own humanity.

This is not to say that anyone who engages in trophy hunting is deserving of severe punishment or is an eternally 'bad' person, but merely that the best lived human life will not involve hunting for trophies.
 
A quick follow up to my own post. I think everyone here on this thread, whether a supporter of hunting, a dedicated opponent or somewhere in between, can take solace in the fact that what we are engaged in here, namely ethical deliberation and debate, is the epitomy of what it is to be human. To the extent that we are all engaged in such debate, we are living objectively good human lives.
 
Kaor, thanks for coming back and explaining your post. I guess I owe you an apology for reading into it the wrong intent. I should have gotten back here sooner. I hope you can understand how everyone here feels. There have been quite a few attempts to explain our culture to you (including using humor). I think you got some of the defiant reactions (mine included) because we have entirely too many people in this country who believe that because they don't like something they should be able to put an end to it. Well, we are a free country (somewhat) and there are those of us that will fight for our rights and culture. By the way, my great grandparents on my moms side came to America from Croatia and settled in Michigan. Hunting was in their culture at that time. They raised all of their children with that culture too! It carried on through the years to my generation. I believe you have the right to believe the way you do. I too have that right. Please don't disparage it. We'll get along fine then. Especially with the common grounds of enjoying the outdoors.
 
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