Ontario BlackBird broke..........

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I've batoned with all kinds of knives, to include smaller knives that people say should never be batoned (Mora) and never broke one. Even Opinels and haven't broken one. I'd say there is something wrong with the HT on the knife. Ontario should take care of you.
 
I wouldn't over stress about it. I had an issue with an Ontario knife that had a faulty scale on the handle. They sent me new scales and new hardware to install them with, and I had them in a week. They were happy to stand behind their product.

You know, sometimes things just happen....

Robert
 
I'm sure that "battoning" means different things to different people. Perhaps when the maker said that the knife was suitable for battoning he meant splitting small pieces of wood, not using the knife as a wedge to split tree-trunk size logs with.
 
From the very little I know on the subject, I say heat treat problem. Isn't that about the spot where there differential ht lines? Like the junction between harder and softer steels?
 
Wait a minute. The Blackbird has a 5" long, 1/8" thick blade constructed of 154CM heat-treated to 58-60 HRC and the manufacturer is telling you it's OK to baton with it? Not in my reality, it's not. But if the manufacturer says you can baton with it and it breaks when you do, it's on them . . . not on you!
 
I'm not sure why batoning is popular all of a sudden. Who started doing this anyway? I was always taught that a knife is to cut things. Not "process wood" with. And that you were supposed to take care of your knife. If you did, it would take care of you.
I suppose everyone just wants to be able to brag that they have the toughest knife made. Well, that's fine, but you certainly don't have to have a knife that withstands constant battoning, to have a tough knife.
I have been going on camping trips for over 40 years. In the semi desert of south Texas, and in the Appalachian mountains mostly, and I have yet to find myself in a position to have to chop logs into kindling with a knife. The knives I have used have all done a great job at what they were designed to do. I try to take care of them too.
I have either used a hatchet, an axe, or a saw, if I wanted kindling. Most of the time, I just pick sticks and dead branches up off the ground.
Can someone please tell me when you have HAD to chop logs up with a knife?
I know of one manufacturer who has changed the steel offered in one particular knife, just so it would withstand battoning better. But that steel is not as desirable as what they moved away from. I imagine many more manufacturers will be going this route in the future. I sure hope not.
IF I was EVER stranded somewhere in the wild, and only had a knife with me, damn if I would be beating the blade with a log. Or rock. That knife would be too important in getting my butt back to safety, to risk breaking it.
If you have one of the knives touted on this, and other forums, that is known to be able to withstand battoning, believe me, you keep it up, and sooner or latter it's going to fail. It's just a matter of time. Where will you be when that happens? Will you be depending on that knife to get you back to civilization? I hope not.
 
maxpeters said:
If you have one of the knives touted on this, and other forums, that is known to be able to withstand battoning, believe me, you keep it up, and sooner or latter it's going to fail. It's just a matter of time. Where will you be when that happens?
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Find me a Busse that failed batoning with wood. No sledge hammer, no rock, wood.

You won't.

By the way, you are super dramatic. (and super wrong)
 
I'd suggest the OP pay real close attention to what Joe just posted. If you think there's a piece of advice hidden in that post, you'd be right. And if you think you would be well advised to heed it, you'd be right again.

If I were in the market for a REAL 5" survival knife, I'd get myself a RatManDu from Swamp Rat Knives (a Busse company) and never look back.
 
"I believe the more complicated a product becomes, the more likely it is to fail when your life depends on it. For this reason I designed The Blackbird SK-5 Knife to achieve maximum function delivered through pure simplicity. You won't see gimmicks or gadgets on this knife...only the core essentials that provide the user with comfort and a sharp edge to handle the most demanding wilderness survival tasks." -Paul Sheiter

The Blackbird SK-5 blade is crafted from 154CM. This steel is American made, known for its superior toughness, edge-retaining ability, sharpness and corrosion resistance. The SK-5's blade is 0.13 inch thick and features a full-taper grind.

The perimeter of the Micarta Handle is rounded to provide a comfortable grip and is secured to the knife tang with stainless steel Allen screws.

The Blackbird SK-5 comes with a MOLLE compatible sheath that features a rigid protective insert. The sheath also features a belt loop so that it may be worn on the hip in the traditional belt mount configuration. - Description of the SK-5 from Ontario Knife Company
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No where in this description does it mention 'batoning'. However, it does mention 'most demanding wilderness survival tasks'. I believe that batoning would fall under this, so this would be an expected use for the knife. Sounds like and looks like from the way it broke there was a problem with the heat treat.
 
Really Joe? All things break. Why am I wrong? Because it hasn't happened to you? Or hasn't shown up on a forum? Yet?
 
maxpeters said:
I'm not sure why batoning is popular all of a sudden. Who started doing this anyway? I was always taught that a knife is to cut things. Not "process wood" with. And that you were supposed to take care of your knife. If you did, it would take care of you.
I suppose everyone just wants to be able to brag that they have the toughest knife made. Well, that's fine, but you certainly don't have to have a knife that withstands constant battoning, to have a tough knife.
I have been going on camping trips for over 40 years. In the semi desert of south Texas, and in the Appalachian mountains mostly, and I have yet to find myself in a position to have to chop logs into kindling with a knife. The knives I have used have all done a great job at what they were designed to do. I try to take care of them too.
I have either used a hatchet, an axe, or a saw, if I wanted kindling. Most of the time, I just pick sticks and dead branches up off the ground.
Can someone please tell me when you have HAD to chop logs up with a knife?
I know of one manufacturer who has changed the steel offered in one particular knife, just so it would withstand battoning better. But that steel is not as desirable as what they moved away from. I imagine many more manufacturers will be going this route in the future. I sure hope not.
IF I was EVER stranded somewhere in the wild, and only had a knife with me, damn if I would be beating the blade with a log. Or rock. That knife would be too important in getting my butt back to safety, to risk breaking it.
If you have one of the knives touted on this, and other forums, that is known to be able to withstand battoning, believe me, you keep it up, and sooner or latter it's going to fail. It's just a matter of time. Where will you be when that happens? Will you be depending on that knife to get you back to civilization? I hope not.
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When I read this post I thought I was reading one of my own :D. I've said virtually the same things (and I agree with much of what you say).

But there are some EXTREMELY tough knives on the market that can easily handle such tasks as wood-splitting (with some limits naturally). Of course, not all of the knives that are advertised as being able to split wood are up to the task. It's not surprising that some knife makers or manufacturers would overstate the capabilities of their knives in order to increase sales.

In the end, when it comes to what other people do with their knives, my policy is "Who cares". After all, it's their knife, they can do anything they want with it. Chop wood, throw it at trees, pry paint cans open, whatever, have at it. I'm not the one paying for them.
 
killgar said:
In the end, when it comes to what other people do with their knives, my policy is "Who cares". After all, it's their knife, they can do anything they want with it. Chop wood, throw it at trees, pry paint cans open, whatever, have at it. I'm not the one paying for them.
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Done all this and more with a BK2. Not sure what you'd have to do to bust a half inch thick chunk of steel the way this SK-5 broke. Batoning sure wouldn't do it...
 
maxpeters said:
Really Joe? All things break. Why am I wrong? Because it hasn't happened to you? Or hasn't shown up on a forum? Yet?
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There of plenty of examples of knives that have been heavily chopping, batoning and even (gasp) thrown regularly for over a decade without breaking or failing.

I personally have done ungodly things to certain knives for 5+ years without hurting anything but my self, lol. If I'm lost in the wilderness for over five years, I have bigger things to worry about than my knife.

Head on over to the Busse forum and ask for pictures and testimonials.

Geez, I'm glad I'm not so afraid to use my knife as some of you people. It's nice that I found Busse early and developed a healthy standard before the fear-mongers made me too scared to buy and use a knife.
 
Ok Joe. That's fine. If you want the last word on this, you got it. ( reminds me of my first wife. you gotta know when to let go).
I said what I believe. Like it, don't like it. All the same to me. Enjoy your knives.
 
maxpeters said:
Ok Joe. That's fine. If you want the last word on this, you got it. ( reminds me of my first wife. you gotta know when to let go).
I said what I believe. Like it, don't like it. All the same to me. Enjoy your knives.
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...?

If you don't want to talk to me anymore, just say so, man.
 
I'm not sure why batoning is popular all of a sudden. Who started doing this anyway?
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Splitting wood with a knife is what it was called when I was taught how to do it in 1962 by an instructor at the U.S.M.C. Mountain and Desert Survival School. He demonstrated with a Mark II, which is far from ideal given its stick tang and square shoulders at the tang-blade junction -- made out of economy materials by the low bidder.

With care, I have split wood with a knife using every class of knife, including an Imperial Boy Scout pocket knife. It's not as if I was chopping. The relatively fragile edge is in contact with the 'work." The relatively tough spine gets the impact. And I would never use a rock. I can't really say I have done it frequently, but I have when I needed to and would do so again.

All things can break. Not all do so for a given user.

As for when froes started being used, that was centuries ago.

As for 154Cm being known for toughness, . . . . .
 
I think batoning is fine. I don't know why you tried to baton that....:eek:

Maybe you should consider more bite sized pieces :)
 
JSMcustoms said:
No where in this description does it mention 'batoning'. However, it does mention 'most demanding wilderness survival tasks'. I believe that batoning would fall under this, so this would be an expected use for the knife. Sounds like and looks like from the way it broke there was a problem with the heat treat.
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You are technically agreeing with my use of it. But unfortunately I have to add to your reply......

You are right in that it does not mention batoning in the description. However Paul Scheiter is on camera talking all this hype about this knife which he designed for Ontario. Ontario probably knew better, but the designer couldn't help but up-sell his baby.
 
If I was going to do some batoning, which is not probable, for sure I wouldn't use a stainless steel with a carbide fraction of 17%. All those talking about batoning for years with 1095, SK5, etc ( even a 1960's era Mk 2 which should have been made with L6 back then) remember you are comparing grapes to grapefruits. If it's ground thin enough, 154cm can chip whittling wood. It's a great steel with good wear resistance, and good corrosion resistance, but probably a little more than a tenth of the toughness of A2. ( a slight exaggeration depending on the heat treat, and final hardness).

I don't know who the OP asked about batoning but they should have known better.

Joe
 
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