Ontario BlackBird broke..........

[Dorito Monk]

I can understand that some people don't like batoning. But why must they always go above and beyond to make it seem like it is extremely abusive? If it was that bad, wouldn't knifemakers tell us not to do it? It's wood vs Steel. Which one should win? I baton just about every single time I am in the woods (for the simple fun of it) and I have never had one break.

However, I do have to say the pic in question was taking it a little extreme. Looks like the OP was trying to pry the wood apart where it broke.

Do they not do so already? The forum is full of threads where people whine about their knives breaking during batoning. Sometimes, they either can't get replacements or have to jump through hoops because the companies consider batonning and chopping to be abusive. Cold Steel for one explicitly tells you not to replicate any of the abusive stuff they do in their marketing videos, batoning and chopping included.

And no, Steel will not always win. Anyone with two clues can tell you that knotty wood can just annihilate a knife.

[youtube]SiVeNOpvYMs[/youtube]

 

[The Mastiff]

Thanks BLD522. Well, he did say it.

For a knife with a steel that has a transverse charpy notch rating of only 2.5 lbs I've got to think this is not something I would say. ( compare S30V which has 10lbs, A2 which has 40, and 3V which gets up as far as 80 ft lbs to put things in perspective.) http://www.crucible.com/PDFs%5CDataSheets2010%5CdsS30Vv1%202010.pdf

He stated the three attributes of the steel were 1)wear, 2) corrosion, and 3) ease of sharpening. Typically toughness is the 3rd attribute we use to compare but he's the guy with the knife

I hope he does the right thing and replaces this one, poor technique or not. It may be a no brainier to me that it's not a tough knife and never will be but he sure makes it out to be one.

I bought one some time back and really like it. I never even contemplated it as a hard use knife. I have Ferhmans, Busse(kins), L6, 5160, A2, more 3V, etc., etc., for that stuff. To be honest, 154cm isn't that corrosion resistant a steel either but it is more so that the other knives I typically use. If it was thicker it would hold up better, without doubt, but he did state he wanted a nice cutting and slicing knife. He got exactly that, at the cost of a knife that will be broken by guys that do what the OP did, and he'll have to fix/replace them because of his advertisement. He should, anyway.

I actually do like the knife though.

To the OP, unless you are set on stainless perhaps something like the "punk" in 5160, or a Survive GSO 4 or 5 in 3V might do a bit better. There's always the Becker 2. I doubt it's going to fail you.

Good luck.

Joe

 

[TheGame]

Do they not do so already? The forum is full of threads where people whine about their knives breaking during batoning. Sometimes, they either can't get replacements or have to jump through hoops because the companies consider batonning and chopping to be abusive. Cold Steel for one explicitly tells you not to replicate any of the abusive stuff they do in their marketing videos, batoning and chopping included.

And no, Steel will not always win. Anyone with two clues can tell you that knotty wood can just annihilate a knife.

[youtube]SiVeNOpvYMs[/youtube]

Knotty wood will, yea. (Still hasn't personally given me an issue)

As far as the bold part. You mention Cold Steel. I was mainly talking about custom makers(I'm sure some will tell you not to, but none of the makers I've bought). I have been told that batoning is not abuse, and it would be fine for me to baton with them. From 1/8 of an inch to over 1/4 of an inch. Although I have batoned with multiple brands that have not once failed me. To include even Mora. Don't baton overly thick wood (as the OP was trying to do) and your knife should not break.

 

[Dorito Monk]

Knotty wood will, yea. (Still hasn't personally given me an issue)

As far as the bold part. You mention Cold Steel. I was mainly talking about custom makers(I'm sure some will tell you not to, but none of the makers I've bought). I have been told that batoning is not abuse, and it would be fine for me to baton with them. From 1/8 of an inch to over 1/4 of an inch. Although I have batoned with multiple brands that have not once failed me. To include even Mora. Don't baton overly thick wood (as the OP was trying to do) and your knife should not break.

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that there were too many custom makers out there who made their knives with batoning in mind.

 

[100eyes]

When they said baton with a 3.3mm 154CM blade, I don't think a tree trunk is what they had in mind lol.

 

[ISKski]

To me it looks like you went cross grain (wrong way) on too big of a piece of wood - Not tryna be a smart@$$ but it kinda looks like it was more the users fault than the knife to me

 

[CWL]

To me it looks like you went cross grain (wrong way) on too big of a piece of wood ...

And then twisted.

Look at the picture, you can see exactly where the failure happened.

 

[TheGame]

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that there were too many custom makers out there who made their knives with batoning in mind.

They probably didn't have batoning in mind. They just don't consider it abuse and don't mind that I baton them, since they should be able to handle it.

 

[HardTripper]

IMO, with my knives, and in my climate batoning is useful and I've never had even an inkling of a problem with the knife doing it. My Mora companion stands up better than that thing did, even through frozen maple. My bk9 is lighter than an.axe, hey it even doubles as a knife , and batoning is often safer than swinging an axe. I also argue that proper axe technique requires proper chopping block, a tall order in the middle of the bush with no chainsaw.

 

[100eyes]

IMO, with my knives, and in my climate batoning is useful and I've never had even an inkling of a problem with the knife doing it. My Mora companion stands up better than that thing did, even through frozen maple. My bk9 is lighter than an.axe, hey it even doubles as a knife , and batoning is often safer than swinging an axe. I also argue that proper axe technique requires proper chopping block, a tall order in the middle of the bush with no chainsaw.

Safety is a big plus.

If any young ones want to try their hand at splitting wood, I always tell them to baton.

Hand them an axe, watch it go straight into their foot.

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

There is batonning, and then there is this:

That is one huge block of wood and the entire length of blade looks to have been hammered into block. Where you batonning the back of the blade or the back of the handle? From the image it looks like the knife may have been laterally pulled apart.

n2s

Exactly, batoning a few small pieces of wood into pencil size kindling is one thing but I can see no reason for trying split something that large with a knife. You need an axe.

 

[bld522]

I bought one some time back and really like it.

Joe

That doesn't surprise me. The Blackbird appears to be a well-made utility knife. Too bad the designer got carried away with its capabilities. I can't help but wonder if, put in a genuine life or death situation, he'd actually choose his own knife to attempt to survive with as opposed to practically any of the other knives recommended in this thread.

 

[HepatitisJ]

if a knife thats marketed as a survival knife can't handle batoning then its a piece of s#%t. i always wondered what paul was thinking with the whole 154cm move and then to let a company like ontario handle his manufacturing? A companies whos heat treatment record is sub par. always found it all weird from a guy who has an extremely high amount of quality control with his leather work.

 

[PharaohX3]

Looking at the OP's pics again it's pretty easy to see that much of the fault here may lay with the user. Clearly he was doing it all wrong. He may be just a bit short on experience and made a simple mistake, it happens. Ontario will surely make-good and all will be well again, our OP perhaps a little wiser. But clearly this thread is about batoning now anyways.

I've been practicing fieldcraft for more than 25 years, learning from my father, a superb outdoorsman, and my big brother, a former US Army ranger. Primarily in a place that many consider to be one of the most hostile, if fragile, places in the Americas, the Sonoran Desert. While strikingly beautiful, everything about this place wants to kill you. This place will send half the outdoorsman on BF crying for their mamas, no matter how experienced they may be. In a place so harsh, it behooves you to learn many skills, batoning is among them. There often isn't a need to carry an axe here, most of the weight you carry should been in the form of water anyways. Obviously it's very dry here but there are many places where wood for burning and building can be in short supply. Very often you just gotta work with the small stuff and that's when processing wood with a knife can be very useful and far safer then using an axe (an axe you often won't have anyways).

It's not always dry here, during our seasonal monsoons it gets quite wet. These thunderstorms are some of the fiercest to be seen, with high wind, frequent lightning, huge chunks of hail and several inches of rain can accumulate in a matter of minutes. Flash floods are commonplace. Humidity levels skyrocket. With so much moisture, finding dry wood can be tough. It's often required to split wet wood to get down to the dry stuff if you want fire to cook and chase away all the nasties lurking in the dark. Here again batoning with a knife excels.

Obviously I'm not saying knife batoning is always better than splitting with an axe, that would be absurd. Just as absurd as saying batoning should never be done no matter what. I'm just saying it's a perfectly valid and simple way to process wood. You will have different needs in different environments and thus will require different tools and skills. If you have a worthy knife and the correct knowledge, baton till you're blue in the face. Or at least until the Anti-Battoning-Nazi-Movement shows up on a thread insisting their way is the only way and that you are a fool if you do something different.

...I also argue that proper axe technique requires proper chopping block, a tall order in the middle of the bush with no chainsaw.

Also, this^^^







Edit:spelling

 

[Poez]

If you try to break a knife: do not be surprised when it breaks!
or
What one man made: another will be able to break!

I have difficulty choosing which one better describes the whole batoning idea for me!
That is of course my personal view on the practice: that is why I have a hatchet and an axe.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I thought cell phones had replaced being knowledgeable and experienced. Or was it PLB's? ATV's?

It ain't new. Until recently, most houses were shingled with materials split by hammering the back of a blade with a wooden maul. Appropriately made blade. Appropriate level of force.

Any tool can be abused (How many axes have you seen with broken handles or mushroomed poles?)

The makers suggest it and say it is not abuse, given reason (as in any tool - like an axe or froe).

But someone will always come along and say "never" or "always" and feel better for it.

 

[jdigi101]

If that is what you need your knife to do you should be carrying a Swamp Rat R6, Scrapyard 711 or some other 6"+ Busse or Kin.

 

[GarnetandBlack]

Drive with a car, eat with a fork, cut with a knife, chop wood with an axe.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Oh yes. The ever-popular "use the right tool.

Split with a blade.

But never, oh never, use the "twist stroke" with an Estwing Axe.

 

[PharaohX3]

Drive with a car, eat with a fork, cut with a knife, chop wood with an axe.

How poetic.

You don't always drive with a car, sometimes you drive a truck or motorcycle. You don't always eat with a fork, spoons work well for many things. You don't always cut with a knife, sometime shears or a saw are more appropriate... And you dont always chop with an axe, people have been doing it with knives and machetes for a long time.