Opinel Blade Failure

[Cliff Stamp]

Maybe less bad knife and a little more like poor technique?

Would that also explain why the retaining ring cut into the blade and the other several ways he demonstrated the blade was too soft. None of what you described would be able to damage a properly hardened blade to the extent Vivi has described which he could easily verify by attempting the same work again with a similar knife.

Of course there will be variations from chop to chop but if you look at the total effect of a large number of chops then you would expect it to be very consistent even if the variation from chop to chop was high because you would essentially be looking the reduction in standard deviation which is about 1/sqrt(n). This should be obvious because without this then it would be impossible for people to optomize any hand tools.

Either way, that aint science.

If the purpose of an evaluation is to see if a tool was suitable for use by a person, the evaluation would have to taken into account the characteristics of use by said person. This includes the variations in force by the person and the dynamic effects of both the person and target moving. This is actually inherent in all knife design for people because if they were used very quasi-static as in a drill press they would look very different.

-Cliff

 

[Ebbtide]

Notice I said less bad knife.
Less.
Not good knife.
Not gosh-aweful knife.

It is obvious that the blade could have been better.
It is also obvious that the so called testing was a wee bit haphazard.
I haven't said that the Opinel makes a bad knife.
Nor have I said that this example of a knife was either good or bad.

And a little like poor technique.
Little.
Not all poor technique... a little.

So instead of saying the same thing over and over again, maybe with different analogies and other words, like cliff and I have done oh so many times before,
I'll just end with this:
It was poor form to call CanRanger a troll.
I thought we don't allow personal attacks.

 

[Vivi]

I thought we don't allow personal attacks.

If I had a dollar for every one I received in this thread, I'd have enough to order a replacement #12 from Ragweedforge. :]

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It was poor form to call CanRanger a troll.

It was trolling to imply that people who "break" knives don't actually use them. It is a lie, which is used for no other reason than to inflame. It is also inconsistently applied which is fundamental to trolling. If knifemaker had started this thread and titled it with something like :

"Just how bad can a heat treatment get."

and showed that work with the exact same blade profile/cross section which he made, he would recieve univeral praise. Consider this :

"I cut dry lalac branches past three forks of the branch. This puts alot of torsion on the edge as the branch bends in odd multiple changing angles under the pressure of the cut. Every cut presents a new range of torsion. I find the failure point ..."

This by all the descriptions in the above is obviously a person who isn't a knife user but simply a knife breaker. It is one of the people who obviously the industry could do without. Since he continues under the knife fails the test is obviously not a test by your logic as he isn't testing, he is just breaking. He isn't offering information he is just spreading hype and misinformation.

That person is Ed Schempp who also refers to the above as an emperical test. Which of course you would also content strongly. That quote was an answer to a question I asked on the nature of the edge cross section he uses. Of course when Schempp stated the above, how he takes one of his blades to failure, there was not one critism from anyone remotely similar to the heap piled on Vivi.

-Cliff

 

[Ebbtide]

Whether it was trolling or not, I thought we don't call people trolls.
Justify whatever, however.

Please don't put words "in my mouth" either.
I never said that poor Vivi is spreading hype and misinformation.

If anything I think he has fallen under the spell of backyard knifetesting to destruction syndrome.

So let's play nice, eh?

 

[Ebbtide]

If I had a dollar for every one I received in this thread, I'd have enough to order a replacement #12 from Ragweedforge. :]

Someone called you a name in this thread?
More than once?
I must be slipping, I missed it.

Nothing personal against you Vivi, just don't understand or approve of the whole destructive testing by amateurs thing.

Use your knives responsibly and safely.
I'd hate to see someone get hurt like the poor guy in the HI forum.

Friends?

 

[Vivi]

It's all fine Ebb, I have nothing against anyone who's posted in this thread. I just think some of them exhibited silly and / or hypocritical behaviour.

What I was doing wasn't for destructive testing. The chopping was something I've done with all my larger Opinels at one point, and on that particular day I had taken my new #12 out to test. I just put an edge on it so I was testing sharpness in whittling, as well as seeing how the longer blade length contributed to batoning and I decided to try it out at light chopping and clearing vegetation. All practical uses I've done with these knives before and will continue to do.

In hindsight it's a very good thing I did test this blade how I did, because if I didn't I might of found out about it's poor heat treat at a much more crucial moment. It's better to know the limitations of your tools before you find yourself having to rely on said limitations. I'll have to repeat my testing when I purchase a new #12.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Please don't put words "in my mouth" either.

You are the one who ranted about destructive testing spreading hype and misinformation completely misunderstanding the actual defination of destructive testing. You also can't critize a method by one person and then comdemn the exact same method when used by another. All the labels you threw about in the above apply just as easily to Fikes as they do for Busse, but of course you would never single out such an accusation calling Fikes on hype and misinformation but he also pounds knives through concrete and chops them into steel drums. However he also does a lot of cutting, just like Busse does. Chops 2x4, cuts rope, cardboard, etc.. You just ignore all that and focus on the part of the work they do which you don't find relevant.

But of course now you are just looking out for Vivi's health as he is only an amateur and it would be fine and wonderful if a maker did it as of course blade testing should be left to the makers who are selling you the blades unlike people like Vivi who spends a lot of time outdoors using his knife. After all, how could he ever hope to evaluate a blade since he didn't make it. Obviously if Vivi wanted to know if a pair of boots would stand hiking he would be much better off actually talking to the person who worked in the factory and made the boots. It would be absurd to think about actually wearing them and seeing what happened, or asking someone else who wore them. Plus you would never think about exposing them to the worst conditions you would imagine to see if they would hold up to such use, no rain, rough terrain, rocks, very jagged brush, jumping, running, etc., or anything else that might damage the boots. After all you could obviously learn nothing from such "descructive" testing on the boots.

Have you ever actually talked to a maker who does hard testing on their knives to see why they do it. Phone up Justin of Ranger Knives and ask him why he does the type of really demanding work he has demonstrated on Knifeforms. Did it ever come to you to think he may require his knives to do something beyond what you need knives to do and that others may want similar knives. It isn't hype and misinformation if it is relevant to the user base it is aimed for. Lots of people who are very experienced like Davenport have highly praised Busse Com bat blades, by your logic he is just as guilty of spreading hype and disinformation as well.

-Cliff

 

[canranger]

Cliff

Face it you do not stay on topic someone here said "right tool for the right job" so how would you say that a test perfomed on a Busse is a legitimate test to perfom on an Opinel for that matter what is your idea of proper use catagories lots of products have them a discription of what can be expected in perfomance from this product. You won't catch me loading a house foundation in the back of my Ram 1500 and say when it breaks that it failed the test because the Ford super duty 350 can hall more they are both trucks but not to be compared the same.

By the way to be scientific you first have to establish a proper experiment with set guide lines. Just in case you didn't know a proper sample size has to be taken as well (again Vivi this does not directly apply to your case).

Anyway Cliff call me a troll if you would like its ok one day I will post again when I get a chance and explain to you how you are mistaken in your assumption.

 

[Vivi]

As far as I know, Busse doesn't do their "destructive testing" on inch thick branches, making the first line of your arguement fairly moot.

I don't think he was arguing for testing an Opinel alongside a Busse. I think he was saying it's good to test the limits of each product we purchase so we're aware of those very limitations when we might be dependant on them. Push the Opinel to its limits and push a Busse to its limits, not one knife towards the others limit of work.

 

[canranger]

Did it ever come to you to think he may require his knives to do something beyond what you need knives to do and that others may want similar knives.

-Cliff

Again another instance when it would have been good to read it before sending it. In this case Cliff I would go get the tool I needed to do what a knife does not normally do. Check Blackhawk supplies out for battering rams and pry entry devices.

By the way Cliff one of the reasons you are mistaken in calling me a troll is that I have talked to many, many a maker in fact I am a maker myself. Just for beginners

 

[canranger]

Vivi no part of my argument is moot the argument here period is moot.....lol

It is like seeing a bunch of guys standing around at one of the woodworking shows I teach at saying things like"hey your using a norton stone to sharpen are" at that point I throw them a cookie because they have shown off how much they know but they still can't get a sharp edge.


By the way my point was pushing knives like opinels and other thin blades to their limits is like seeing how close you can get to the cliff edge when it is right in front of you if you fall off everyone should just wave to you on the way down.

 

[Vivi]

Personally I find the risk of death versus a bent blade or broken knife tip to be fairly incomparable. It's a lot harder to re-grind a new body out of bio-splatter than it is to grind out a new knife tip.

If I operated my knife usage the way you suggest, the way others on these forums do, I would be much more limited in the work I could preform. The only other person I've seen baton with an Opinel is Cliff, and both he and I have found it to not only be possible, but that the knife can do it repeatedly with little to no ill effect on the blade and handle. If I simply went with the popular assumption that an Opinel is inexspensive, has a thin blade, is not made out of Titanium and therefore to weak to do anything of consequence, then my ability to work with the knife would be severely hampered by my own ignorance. The capabilities of my Opinel would be no different, but my own lack of creativity and experimentation would mean I would be working within a fraction of the knifes abilities rather than in full. Apparently many users are comfortable living this way, but I am not. A difference in idealogy I suppose, but I like to use the full extent of capabilities in myself and the world around me.

 

[canranger]

Ok Vivi then next time don't chop if you like to use the full extent of things in the world around you let me teach you a new trick possibly to you maybe. Next time put stress on the branch causing the fibres of the wood to elongate and bend then press your edge at a slight angle into the brach the growth rings will pop with little effort then contine to do the same till you have severed your way through the branch.

For dead wood put the baton down simply notch the wood with a nick from your knife at the length you want to cut it. Then using a natural block such as 2 trees together brace the wood beteen them and gentley push, it will break at the notch. Another method is notch then swing it at a rock or tree with no follow through and make sure it is not in a direct line with you body it will bounce back it should break at the notch unless there is another weakness some place else.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... how would you say that a test perfomed on a Busse is a legitimate test to perfom on an Opinel

They are both knives so obviously would have a broad area of overlap. Cutting light brush like Vivi did is hardly a demanding test of a knife and as I noted they are lots of very thin stainless blades designed to do such work.

...what is your idea of proper use

Use for which the tool is designed, so it handles the task efficiently, is safe, and doesn't damage it significantly. Of course in lots of situations you have to do something which isn't proper use because getting the task done is more important than the resulting wear/damage to the knife.

...a proper sample size has to be taken as well

Yes and this depends on what you are trying to prove. If I want to see if a knife I have has specific properties then the sample size I need to examine is obviously one. If I want to make an inference on the population variance then the sample size would have to be larger.

I would go get the tool I needed to do what a knife does not normally do.

The knives are designed to do the things the makers promote them for, not every knife is simply constricted to only light cutting. Do you also condemn Fowler because he promotes bending his knives to 180 degrees as a test of durability and considers extreme work in his defination of a high performance knife. Rob Simonich tested one of his knives by hitting it with a hammer until it broke while he was cutting a piece of steel and specifically noted he intended to keep it up until it broke. Fikes cut steel and concrete. Justin of Ranger knives does heavy prying and chopping concrete. Darrel Ralph has chopped into concrete. Hossom has cut nails. Possum has noted in detail why he needs high durability on his knives and chooses steels accordingly. Have you discussed it with him, do you really think that he should not make such a knife because you don't have a use for it.

-Cliff

 

[canranger]

Cliff you should refrain on framing what other people are saying if you don't understand it. If those makers design (of which I have talked to some) their knives to do such things then testing them in that manner is fair after all they claim it to be capable but not every knife just because it is a knife and cuts is open to the same ideals for perfomence.

Tell me would you chop with a CRKT Serengeti ?????

 

[Ebbtide]

Rant?
Disinformation and hype?
Obviously you are bringing past discussions into this thread about Vivi and his Opinel.
I'm not about to rehash the same old discussions with you cliff.

It gets old after a while you know.
And you never did apologise to CanRanger for the personal attack.

 

[canranger]

Ebb

Cliff was here gues he had no responce for your request for an apology.

So he left......hmmmm not sure what to make of that he is usually really quick to quote and respond.

 

[Dog of War]

Ebbtide, canranger - please accept my apologies if anything I said in my replies offended or was uncalled for. Interesting a medium as web forums are, they seem to lend themselves to a little more bristling and barking .... kind of like dogs on opposite sides of a fence who can't see each other's tails wagging.

I guess I've found myself more aggressive about this stuff ever since a few months ago when a couple BFC moderators no less went after a certain prolific poster in what I thought was a personal way. So other than when it gets personal like that, I think it's made me more tolerant of topics, posts and even posters I may not like so much ..... a reminder of the importance of free speech, tolerance and respect. I'll try to work on the latter two.

Regards -DoW

 

[Gryffin]

If I operated my knife usage the way you suggest, the way others on these forums do, I would be much more limited in the work I could preform. The only other person I've seen baton with an Opinel is Cliff, and both he and I have found it to not only be possible, but that the knife can do it repeatedly with little to no ill effect on the blade and handle. If I simply went with the popular assumption that an Opinel is inexspensive, has a thin blade, is not made out of Titanium and therefore to weak to do anything of consequence, then my ability to work with the knife would be severely hampered by my own ignorance. The capabilities of my Opinel would be no different, but my own lack of creativity and experimentation would mean I would be working within a fraction of the knifes abilities rather than in full. Apparently many users are comfortable living this way, but I am not. A difference in idealogy I suppose, but I like to use the full extent of capabilities in myself and the world around me.

Very well said. :thumbup:

Canranger does make a good point, though: you can get even more work out of a knife, and yourself, by working smart. His suggestion of bending green wood and just cutting it is a great example. Why chop when you can just cut? Easier on the knife, easier on you, less chance of a freak accident. Everybody wins!