Opinions on liner locks

dalefuller said:
Yes... if you can find one. IIRC, they aren't currently made, but there are Ti Militaries with frame locks that pop up on the exchange every so often.
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Ti frame lock Militaries are still being made as far as I'm aware. The plain Ti and Fluted Ti. Great knives.
 
sharkattacksw said:
Is there a frame lock Military? I've never seen one, but I usually don't look at the Military models. They're too large for me to EDC.
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Mick_1KRR said:
Not a fan, most are flimsy and it really is a primitive way to lock a blade, just a cheap easy option for makers. Still waiting for some innovation in the knife lock world, Andrew Demko has done some good work, same goes for the axis and there's nothing wrong with CRK's frame lock for standard use. The only 2 liner locks i think are well done and would trust are Spydercos Military and Gayle Bradley.
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Ever handle a ZT0350? Absolute tank of a linerlock knife. There are plenty of well designed/executed linerlocks, many of which I own or have owned. If you really want to see an insanely perfect and super strong linerlock knife, pick up a Rockstead Shin. Or a Shirogorov F3. Or an Andre Thorburn. I could go on for quite a while, suffice it to say some of the finest folding knives made are linerlocks.
 
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Spydie still makes the Ti Millie with a frame lock. Got one last year
 
There were videos on Youtube several years ago of a guy tying folders with various locks to sticks and stabbing them into trees, he could get liner locks and framelocks both to fail easily just by changing the angle of impact. I don't remember the name or anything, and that's only one data point of course. I only say this to illustrate that any discussion of "lock strength" kind of misses the point--you can't measure them by how much weight they can hold, etc. but rather by how they perform in real world use. No lock is perfect, and IMO the liner/frame lock is too reliant on a contact point that by definition needs to be easily dislodged in order to open and close the knife.

It doesn't really matter anyway, I have a hard time imagining someone cutting themselves with ANY knife, folding or not, locking or not, well made or not, without user error being 90% or more of the cause. Not to say I haven't done it, of course I have, but it's been my fault every time and not the knife's fault. I myself prefer non-locking folding knives like slipjoints or friction folders because I feel like I exercise more caution when using them precisely because they don't lock.
 
Lapedog said:
I find this whole "grip reinforcing a framelock" thing to be largely a myth. First of all most of my framelock knives when I grip them the handle design means I am hardly putting any extra pressure on the lock bar. Even if I am putting pressure on the lockbar it is certainly not my full grip strength. First of all who grips a knife with their full grip strength when cutting? Secondly the handle design often means that it is not designed for your full grip strength to be falling on the lockbar. With both these factors in play I find it hard to believe any force that would pop a frame lock open or cause the lock to fail would be stopped by your hand gripping the knife.
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I think you probably have limited experience with knives in general if that is your view. Its not about having a full strength grip on a knife. Think about how little pressure it takes on a lockbar to prevent a detent from releasing a blade. Not much at all. And when I use my knives my grip is a full grip. the part of my hand right behind my index finger rests on the frame lock and it keeps the lock from disengaging. If you are opening mail maybe not. But any time I'm using my knife for a task that actually will benefit from having a lock in the first place you can bet your life I have a full grip and it does reinforce the lock. Most frame locks fail either due to slippage whether its from poor lock geometry or a slipper substance like oil getting on the lock face or a shock like dropping or smacking the spine of the knife. When you hold a knife with a frame lock gripping the handle you have constant pressure on the very end of the lockbar. How do you hold your knife? Like a tiny tea cup with your pinky extended? I know I don't. Remember the frame lock side is on your palm side. If you are a lefty using a right handed lock then I could see your fingers not doing that work.

Its pretty simple. If the lockbar cant move out of the way of the blade then the blade cant close. Is there a possibility that you could put so much force on the back side of the blade that its going to overcome your ability to hold the lockbar in place? Maybe. But I highly doubt it unless you just sit in your room replicating cold steel test videos. Also are you familiar with the rotoblock? It does exactly what your hand does when using a knife. It prevents the lockbar from moving out of the way of the blade. Anything that makes that fail, or if you grip cant prevent the lock from failing then you probably aren't doing something right. And just remember, you cant have two first of alls. You can have a first of all and a second of all, and maybe even your case a thirdly. But two first of alls? That is what I find more hard to believe. :D ;)
 
Generally speaking, since every knife is different, I prefer liner locks over frame locks. In my experience they both share the same lock strength and ease of use but I prefer to have the lock-side scale on a liner lock "shield" the lock face from my grip. It makes opening and closing the knife less of a precision operation.

I am a bit of a gorilla (both mentally and physically) and often find myself having to adjust my natural grip so as not to interfere with the operation of frame locks. On those occasions when safety demands a no-look, one-handed opening of my knife, it's frustrating to have to think about how to hold the knife so as to open it without adding to the detent. This is probably a non-issue for most folks but it is an issue for me. Actually, I've recently decided to sell of all but my most beloved frame locks.

Having said all that, liner and frame locks are my least favorite lock types.
 
I like liner and framelocks but they wouldn't be my choice for hard use. I like the elegance of a liner lock. The Gayle Bradley 1 and Military are examples of good liner locks but there are many others.
The other day I was planting a tree and decided to cut away the thick plastic pot. I had to stab through the side and then I could cut the plastic. The lip of the pot was the toughest to cut through. I was using a CS Recon 1 and despite putting a some negative pressure and side-load on the blade I had no concern that the lock would fail.
After that project I started thinking about which of my knives I would actually trust not to fold on me for piercing, twisting cuts with a tight grip on the handle and negative pressure on the lock. There aren't many.
Still I like liner locks because I rarely use a knife like I did that day. With Spydercos you often also have a choil which can be another safety.
 
Hi. Have a few folders with liner locks, the last one I acquired is a ZT 0909. A beast of a knife. Stabbed, thrusted, torqued, twisted, not the slightest move of the lock :thumbsup:. I am not afraid of liner locks when done right :). I have those also on my two Mcusta, for example, surely they are used in a more "gents folders way" but never had an issue in all these years.

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PURPLEDC said:
I think you probably have limited experience with knives in general if that is your view. Its not about having a full strength grip on a knife. Think about how little pressure it takes on a lockbar to prevent a detent from releasing a blade. Not much at all. And when I use my knives my grip is a full grip. the part of my hand right behind my index finger rests on the frame lock and it keeps the lock from disengaging. If you are opening mail maybe not. But any time I'm using my knife for a task that actually will benefit from having a lock in the first place you can bet your life I have a full grip and it does reinforce the lock. Most frame locks fail either due to slippage whether its from poor lock geometry or a slipper substance like oil getting on the lock face or a shock like dropping or smacking the spine of the knife. When you hold a knife with a frame lock gripping the handle you have constant pressure on the very end of the lockbar. How do you hold your knife? Like a tiny tea cup with your pinky extended? I know I don't. Remember the frame lock side is on your palm side. If you are a lefty using a right handed lock then I could see your fingers not doing that work.

Its pretty simple. If the lockbar cant move out of the way of the blade then the blade cant close. Is there a possibility that you could put so much force on the back side of the blade that its going to overcome your ability to hold the lockbar in place? Maybe. But I highly doubt it unless you just sit in your room replicating cold steel test videos. Also are you familiar with the rotoblock? It does exactly what your hand does when using a knife. It prevents the lockbar from moving out of the way of the blade. Anything that makes that fail, or if you grip cant prevent the lock from failing then you probably aren't doing something right. And just remember, you cant have two first of alls. You can have a first of all and a second of all, and maybe even your case a thirdly. But two first of alls? That is what I find more hard to believe. :D ;)
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That is pretty presumptuous of you to think that I have limited experience with knives because of my opinion. I am not referring to a lock failing due to poor lock geometry or fouling of the lockface surface. I am talking about a force coming on the spine of the blade such as those replicated in the cold steel tests. Unlike the Cold Steel tests those forces may come on suddenly rather than gradually increasing until breaking point. Many of those locks fail after quite a bit of weight is put on the mechanism if the lock is operating properly. Perhaps it is my hand or my knives but I find that my grip does not seem to put that much pressure on the lockbar whether I am holding the knife in my left or right hand. I use my knives with a grip that is no where near my full grip strength. I would say if you are using your knives with a death grip then it will be quite tiring to use that knife before very long.

I feel like if a force strong enough to pop a framelock open comes on the back of the spine I still doubt that your standard knife using grip will be enough to stop that force that popped the lock. Someone will have to test it to find out for sure though. I think that the little bit of force put on a lockbar making it hard to open the knife is totally a different mechanism than a grip holding a failing lock in place. One is a small force that your thumb is working against, the other is a standard knife grip against the force that caused the lock to fail. I acknowledge that if you are dealing with a small force causing a slipping lock to fail then a little grip against the lockbar could prevent the lock bar from moving over.

You are right about me using more than one first of all. Sorry about that, I was writing the first half of that post at one time, then the other half about 30 minutes later. I should have proofread it.

*Edit* I am familiar with the Rotoblock, I have an SR1 and LionSpy. I feel like this device puts pressure on a lockbar in a totally different way than a human hand, at least it is different than my hand. They have other devices like L.A.W.K.S. from CRKT that do a similar thing. I guess one would have to do some experiments to figure out who is right.
 
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This thread is making me more and more enamored of my Izula. You just can't beat the simplicity of a solid piece of steel, and you don't have to pay for "fail safe" locking mechanisms.
 
Vinifera said:
Love these types of threads. Everyone can chime in with their opinion with no resolution or real answer. No right, no wrong just a lot of folks with opinions which leads to lots of posts. Eventually everyone who wants to express his or opinion about liner locks does so and then the thread is dead.
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No, the issue is settled, actually, despite what the forumites say.

Liner locks are great and knife knuts love them. Many of the most beloved models ever made are liner locks. New designs by the best and brightest companies are coming out every day with liner locks. They are strong enough, they are smooth enough, they are flickable, and they look great, allowing for full presentation scales on both sides.

The real ballots were cast long ago. A few ogres out their might complain that they cut their finger when the liner lock failed batoning car door hinges, but for the rest of us, they are a well-beloved staple of knife design.
 
I'm happy to hear that @ 99% of the people contributing to this thread are pro-liner lock. It's about time I try one myself.

I ordered my new dark green G10/204P Military today. Two , actually. I love dealer exclusives.
 
I used to not like liner locks so I bought a Kershaw blur to beat the hell out of. Just the normal stuff like batoning throwing it of a building open I killed that poor knife but the blade broke before the liner did. But It proved to me that a well designed liner lock will take a beating.

But make sure the one you get does not have 05% lock up because I would not trust that. You want one where the liner is on the blade about 20% or 25% that way it has room to walk over the more you use it but it still has a solid lock up.
 
Lapedog said:
That is pretty presumptuous of you to think that I have limited experience with knives because of my opinion. I am not referring to a lock failing due to poor lock geometry or fouling of the lockface surface. I am talking about a force coming on the spine of the blade such as those replicated in the cold steel tests. Unlike the Cold Steel tests those forces may come on suddenly rather than gradually increasing until breaking point. Many of those locks fail after quite a bit of weight is put on the mechanism if the lock is operating properly. Perhaps it is my hand or my knives but I find that my grip does not seem to put that much pressure on the lockbar whether I am holding the knife in my left or right hand. I use my knives with a grip that is no where near my full grip strength. I would say if you are using your knives with a death grip then it will be quite tiring to use that knife before very long.

I feel like if a force strong enough to pop a framelock open comes on the back of the spine I still doubt that your standard knife using grip will be enough to stop that force that popped the lock. Someone will have to test it to find out for sure though. I think that the little bit of force put on a lockbar making it hard to open the knife is totally a different mechanism than a grip holding a failing lock in place. One is a small force that your thumb is working against, the other is a standard knife grip against the force that caused the lock to fail. I acknowledge that if you are dealing with a small force causing a slipping lock to fail then a little grip against the lockbar could prevent the lock bar from moving over.

You are right about me using more than one first of all. Sorry about that, I was writing the first half of that post at one time, then the other half about 30 minutes later. I should have proofread it.

*Edit* I am familiar with the Rotoblock, I have an SR1 and LionSpy. I feel like this device puts pressure on a lockbar in a totally different way than a human hand, at least it is different than my hand. They have other devices like L.A.W.K.S. from CRKT that do a similar thing. I guess one would have to do some experiments to figure out who is right.
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Maybe it is presumptuous. But Its based off certain factors. Your time here on the forum which doesn't necessarily mean you are new to knives but its hard to ignore. Most knife nuts find this place pretty early on. Maybe you have been into knives longer. Another thing is some things just are despite some people who will theorize despite others all ready having done the tests you mention. If a guy with less than year on a car forum were to claim that they dont believe weight reduction can be just as effective as increasing power many will assume its inexperience that led them to that conclusion. Either way I am sorry if you felt insulted by assuming you may not have as much experience in the matter as I do. I just felt if you did have the experience in this matter that i do you couldnt possibly cone to the conclusion you did.

As for cold steel those tests are exactly why I dont like their results. They dont show the knife in a real world environment. Ten years ago I was a fan of the spinewhack test though today I am not a fan of it at all. But you would be surprised how easy it is to get a lock to fail without any grip on a knife and one with a grip. Those tests dont show that. Also the force hitting the back of a blade does not translate directly into the lockface. Much of that energy is absorbed by the arm holding a knife rather than it being bolted to a rigid surface. And its not like if you put a 200 pound direct blow to the spine of a knife that its going to mean the lockbar is going to move over with 200 pounds of force overcoming your grip.

Having performed tests like this myself I can promise you your grip reinforces the lock. Especially in a situation where you would be using the knife hard enough for the lock to even come into question as when using a tool with that much force you should be gripping it as if you want to hold on to it. I also dont know why you think a roto block puts pressure on the lockbar in a different way. It does in the sense that its further towards the butt of the knife but that actually makes it less effective. Your lockbar flexes at the lockbar cut out. A firm grip has you putting pressure on the very end of the bar where it interfaces with the lockface. Providing you with the most leverage over that flex. If you dont believe me try it for yourself. If I had a cheap frame lock that I didn't mind potentially damaging Id make a video to show it.
 
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