OT: Childhood Depravity or What?

Easter is a celebration of the LIVING Jesus, not the death of Jesus.
3 days after he died on the cross, he arose.

Quite a few Christian families do not participate in the egg and rabbit stuff. Quite a few Christian families dont allow the Santa stuff into their homes and dont have Christmas trees or do Halloween. There are plenty of Christians who recognize the pagan backgrounds of these things and wont allow it. There are many Christians who do not allow the cross in their homes.
(It is a graven image after all)


My parents taught me to recognize the difference between actual Christianity and the popular pagan stuff. We did the popular stuff, but I knew the difference and I didnt let it distract me from my relationship with the living Jesus.

Unfortunately some people only do the popular pagan stuff and don't know about the real stuff underneath.

I dont want you to feel that I am preaching, I just want you guys to understand that there are plenty of well -educated Christians who are more than aware of the history we all share.
 
the Mormons and Jehovas witnesses celebrate none of the holidays that are pagan in nature, Nor do they celebrate birthdays. My ex-mormon buddy said that sucked as a kid, tho. Everyone else got presents a few times a year, and he didn't get squat. He's since then had a few b-day parties, on account of us bad pagans.:D

Keith
 
DannyinJapan said:
sinner bbq!
yummy!
(i like KC masterpiece on my ribs)
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That's just because you have never tasted my Barbie's homemade BBQ Sauce!!!!:rolleyes: :p :D ;)
 
Danny, I think you said that very well.

My best friend, a Mormon, celebrated Christmas, and perhaps Easter too. I think most Mormons do Christmas, but I could be wrong. Now, it may not be church sanctioned, but there is Christmas. I've been to his home.


munk
 
Hmm. that "bunny on the moon" looks a whole lot more like an earwig to me. If I had been an ancient astronomer, would everyone be eating chocolate bugs in the spring? :D

I'm with Danny on this. I have to admit I bristle a little when I hear the term "christian" applied to what would more accurately be called "Catholic". I was raised a Baptist, and we were notoriously short on rites and ceremonies. Also, the Bible I grew up reading contained these verses:

Amos 5:21-23 "I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them; neither will I regard your peace offerings or your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

Now, some might argue about the context, but it sounds to me as though God is not real crazy about our 'holiday celebrations'.

Jeremiah 10:2-5 Thus saith the LORD, "Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and with ahmmers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not; they must needs be bourne, because they cannot go. Be not afarid of them; for they cannot do evil. neither also is it in them to do good."

An exhortation against idolatry in general, but the example given is specifically familiar.

I am not bashing Catholics or 'heathen' here. Catholicism may have found it worthwhile to meet converts half-way in their practices, just to get them into the fold. I understand that, but my particular version of Christianity doesn't go there. The religious ideas I was raised with work for me. I may be wrong. But, I'm not going to leave what I know for something that might be just as good; I'll only leave it if I find something better. I've known Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans and Gaia worshippers. I've never told anyone they were going to my "Hell" (well, except maybe for atheists.) :D . But I'm happy to tell them why I believe what I believe, and I don't expect them to change unless I offer them something better.

I give presents on Christmas, and I eat jelly beans at Easter, but I have no illusion that these are "Holy" occassions decreed by my faith, any more than Labour Day or Independence Day are- And I will cook out and eat hot dogs and hamburgers on those days. Our observances of these days are now much more social than religious. So please, apply the labels a little more carefully if you can. :)
 
MacHete said:
Amos 5:21-23 "...Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them; neither will I regard your peace offerings or your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs;...
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Andy 4:20 "OK Boss. We'll skip the barbeque, the bootie house, and the jazz club, and head straight for the crap game."
 
MacHete said:
Hmm. that "bunny on the moon" looks a whole lot more like an earwig to me. If I had been an ancient astronomer, would everyone be eating chocolate bugs in the spring? :D

I'm with Danny on this. I have to admit I bristle a little when I hear the term "christian" applied to what would more accurately be called "Catholic"....

...I am not bashing Catholics or 'heathen' here. Catholicism may have found it worthwhile to meet converts half-way in their practices, just to get them into the fold. I understand that, but my particular version of Christianity doesn't go there...

...Our observances of these days are now much more social than religious. So please, apply the labels a little more carefully if you can. :)
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Yes, my use of the labels was general. Perhaps more general than you think.

Many "heathen" "pagan", "pre-Christian", non-Christian, polytheist, ... ( choose your label) religious practices the world over seem to be based around the seasons. This includes the Middle-East. They served a spirital and practical purpose, insuring that crops were planted at the best time, for example. Perhaps "Calender-worship" would be a good adjective.

Missionaries (those who seek to attempt to persuade or convert others to adopt a belief or religion) existed before the Catholic church, or the birth of Christ, for that matter. Some religions choose to actively seek converts, some to accept converts that seek out the religion, and some require being born into the religion.

I don't think it is inaccurate to describe someone contemporaneous with Christ who actively seeks to persuade others to accept Christ as a manifestation of God as a missionary. The same would apply to anyone else from a different religion trying to get others to adopt theirs.

I wouldn't say that the early Spanish in C. and S. America met converts half-way in their practices, quite the opposite. Yet obvious remnants of the pre-Christian observances remain entwined with Catholic observances in many places there. The people themselves chose to retain them, despite the efforts of the Catholic Church. What degree of religious importance those remants are actually accorded by their practitioners is in the end, up to the practitioners themselves.

If you wish to draw a distinction between coercive and non-coercive means of persuasion, fine.
(BTW,revocation of societal rights or privilages, or declaration of eternal damnation seem coercive to me).

If there is a better word to use than "missionary" for one who seeks promote a particular religion (coercively or non-coercively), what is it? I'll use it instead. "Evangalist" doesn't seem suitable.

I'm no student of the Bible--Is Christ's birthdate accurately described?
The date now observed is 9 months after the spring equinox, the time of fertility. Many pre-Christian religions incorporate an important figure whose conception and birth follow the same schedule.

Does recognizing that similarity somehow detract from or insult Christianity (in whatever variation)?
It doesn't to me, but YMMV.

Everyone, no matter what religion (or non-religion), is subject to time and the seasons, and must learn how to best live with that. If Christians convert a society of "calendar worhipers", the need to live with the seasons remains. That's a fact whether it is viewed as "meet[ing] converts half-way in their practices" or not. Is your dependence upon a watch (which say, tells you when to it is time for church) idoltry? I might seem so to a "missionary" from Mars.

Sorry for the ramble, and no "bashing" here, either.
 
The Roman Catholic church absorbed a lot of the local traditions as it went across Europe. Celebrating at the same times as the previous religions meant that Catholicism was accepted more readily by the local populaces.

John
 
Spectre said:
The Roman Catholic church absorbed a lot of the local traditions as it went across Europe. Celebrating at the same times as the previous religions meant that Catholicism was accepted more readily by the local populaces.

John
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Of course. The point is that keeping track of those times was important (sucessful agriculture could depend on it), no matter what religion was practiced. Any religion that didn't meet that need could not be accepted. It's no coindence that those outside of the cities whose lives were most closely connected to the seasonal variations would be the last to convert.
 
Firkin, I wasn't trying to make the case that Christianity ignores the seasons, or that it should. In fact (here we go with some more scripture quoting) the Biblical account of creation has God saying:

Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years"

-Which I take to mean God is encouraging us to observe and understand and use the signs of the seasons. I think it's interesting that this was the 'Fourth Day' of creation, and -whaddya know- there are four seasons. :) I think the disagreement arises because Monotheist Christians make a distinction between worshiping The Creator and The Created. We have been ingrained with the notion that God made everything, so cut the middleman out of your worship, and go straight to the source. The "middle man mark-ups" are what have corrupted every religion, when the priest, shaman, profit, imam, rabbi, seer, oracle or whatever has exploited people's fears of their God or Gods.

I wasn't objecting to the use of the term "missionary" either. Baptists have a whole bunch of them. :D I know some, and I'm pretty sure they don't, in fact can't, coerce their recruits. My real objection is having all of Christianity lumped together with Catholicism. I would prefer to distance myself and my beliefs from things like the Inquistion, the Crusades, and the peculiar idea of a supposedly monotheistic religion praying to its own deceased believers, rather than to the God who created all of them. (Wow, now that does sound like Catholic-bashing doesn't it.) :eek: Well, I also resent the fact that the KKK presents itself as a "Christian Order".

As for the birthdate of Jesus, most scholars can agree it was not in December, and I think the leading concensus now is that it was in early September, around the time of Yom Kippur.

Now I'm gonna shut up before I get in any more trouble.
 
MacHete said:
As for the birthdate of Jesus, most scholars can agree it was not in December, and I think the leading concensus now is that it was in early September, around the time of Yom Kippur.

Now I'm gonna shut up before I get in any more trouble.
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We traditional ndns neither coerce nor convert nor send missionaries. But there are a few tests to see if you really are sincere or just curious, but either are welcome.:D ;)

According to the Urantia Book the birthdate of Jesus is August 21st.
The Urantia Book is said to be the Fifth Epochial Revelation to mankind. The last part of the Book is the Jesus Paper's and covers the time said to be lost in the Bible. Jesus did indeed spend about 3 years or so in India as well as other parts of the world. Many ndns are in agreeance that Jesus is also the one known as The Paleone that came to Turtle Island to teach us ndns how to live.
There are many things enlightening in the Uranta Book up to and including a Jesus I could/can follow, in the traditional way of course, as The Paleone.;) !:eek: :D
The Paleone taught us to live in peace as well as to just live as we should. Of course if we live as we should then peace generally isn't too far behind now. ainnit?:D
Doesn't all the great world religions teach that very thing?;)
 
I knew there was some flesh eatin/blood drinkin symbolism in communion but...;)

Seriously, tho. I live in a world dominated by monotheism, in an area once called "the bible belt." I say each to his own, the good are good whenever, wherever, however. I was born into a Protestant family, went to that church for a while, did a clean out period as a Non-Theist/Realist, and a new set of things spoke to my soul, from my soul. I am content to be heathen, and content to let others be what they may. I do not attempt to preach or convert, just to answer rightly when asked well.

"Learn not the way of the heathen"--Oops! All yall good christians may want to turn 'the other cheek' to this thread, lest ye lord be lookin in. Seriously, learning the way of the heathen is pretty tough unless you seek it out, so I bet you can still deal with heathens (just don't let our stuff rub off on ye). You guys DO NOT want to know the oath I crafted to my gods...suffice to say it is a reversal of forced conversion speeches of old.

I hope the handful of non-christians here are not gonna get youse guys in trouble with your lord. He's big on forgiveness, right? Love thy neighbor, kay?

I do despise fear as a control in ANY religion.

Keith
 
Ferrous Wheel said:
I do despise fear as a control in ANY religion.

Keith
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Hayv*, Cherokee for, "It is true!!!!"

Keith I wholeheartedly agree!!!! Some of the things I hear from my s-i-l makes my skin crawl, not an easy thing to do. She claims to be a Xtian and I don't argue with her but I feel really sorry for her. She must think she is being condemned to hell at least a hunert times a day or maybe even more.
I would hate to live under that kind of fear of being punished for something I just did if I were to be in a car wreck and killed five minutes later and hadn't asked for forgiveness for it.:eek: :grumpy: :rolleyes: :(
 
Yvsa said:
According to the Urantia Book the birthdate of Jesus is August 21st.
The Urantia Book is said to be the Fifth Epochial Revelation to mankind. The last part of the Book is the Jesus Paper's and covers the time said to be lost in the Bible. Jesus did indeed spend about 3 years or so in India as well as other parts of the world. Many ndns are in agreeance that Jesus is also the one known as The Paleone that came to Turtle Island to teach us ndns how to live.
There are many things enlightening in the Uranta Book up to and including a Jesus I could/can follow, in the traditional way of course, as The Paleone.;) !:eek: :D
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Yvsa, I have never heard of this, but I would like to hear more. :) I have read the Book of Mormon, and understand that their faith is based on a similar belief. How do the two compare?

Yvsa said:
The Paleone taught us to live in peace as well as to just live as we should. Of course if we live as we should then peace generally isn't too far behind now. ainnit?:D
Doesn't all the great world religions teach that very thing?;)
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Yes, all the great religions teach it, but not all of the great religions followers are that great. :rolleyes:

Ferrous said:
I say each to his own, the good are good whenever, wherever, however. I was born into a Protestant family, went to that church for a while, did a clean out period as a Non-Theist/Realist, and a new set of things spoke to my soul, from my soul. I am content to be heathen, and content to let others be what they may. I do not attempt to preach or convert, just to answer rightly when asked well.
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I agree. Jesus spoke of those who are redeemed because they "kept the law" even though they never received it. I respect, actually admire anyone of any faith who 'practices what they preach'. I am a big fan of integrity. In fact, I think I have more respect for someone who "converted" out of a sincere seeking than for someone whose religion is a matter of habit.

Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but I'm kinda getting a vibe that Christians are, by practice and nature, intolerant? If this is based on your past experiences, all I can say is I'm sorry, and I hope I can change your mind. :confused:

I understand it, though. I grew up in a suburban Baptist church. There were no Blacks in my neighborhood, but quite a few at my church. I saw, sat next to, talked and played with black kids every week. No big deal. I was in the third grade before the first black student came to my school. The faculty apparently considered this to be enough of an event that they 'warned' us he was coming, and gave us a briefing on how we should behave. Even as a stupid eight-year old, I thought that was a ridiculous waste of time. What was the big deal? Several more black students enrolled, eventually swelling the student ranks to a point where, my freshman year in high school, I was bussed with the other kids in my neighborhood to a nearby school that was mostly white. In those six years, I could not understand why the black kids hated me. I came to understand that they hated me because they thought I hated them. As I grew older, I understood why- past experience. Or, more likely, the past experience of their parents. I cannot help but think we all missed out on something because the tolerance had been abused. :(

I apply those same lessons to my views on religion, politics and sports team support. Ferrous, I love this phrase:

"I do not attempt to preach or convert, just to answer rightly when asked well."

Can you read what I wrote earlier, and believe that I believe that as well?
 
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