OT: Childhood Depravity or What?

MacHete said:
Yvsa, I have never heard of this, but I would like to hear more. :) I have read the Book of Mormon, and understand that their faith is based on a similar belief. How do the two compare?
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Nope. Joseph Smith said that there were plates of gold that Moroni, an angel, gave to him and the Book of Mormon was printed off of them IIRC and then the plates of gold mysteriously disappeared leaving no proof? Joseph Smith was also indicted for treason in the Great State of Missouri, and was a child molestor to boot according to some accounts I have read.:rolleyes:
Not personally knocking the Mormons as my daughter claims to be a Mormon and I gave her my blessings such as that may be.:) I figure her religion is up to her and her belief's.

AFAIC there is no comparrison at all. The Urantia Book is a very complicated book that doesn't take half of itself out of the Bible. It gives a history of our planet, the Rebellion, the story of Jesus and so on. I personally think it's good reading although it's some 2,097 pages long and the foreward is damned near nigh impossible to understand. This is the only book I've ever seen that starts out extremely hard and gets easier, it's usually the other way around.:D

MacHete said:
Yes, all the great religions teach it, but not all of the great religions followers are that great. :rolleyes:
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I agree as long as Xtians are included.;)

MacHete said:
Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but I'm kinda getting a vibe that Christians are, by practice and nature, intolerant? If this is based on your past experiences, all I can say is I'm sorry, and I hope I can change your mind. :confused:
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Mac it would be great if you could change -my mind-, but there are too many Xtians that have and are still acting wrongly for that to happen. Personally I think Xtianity is a good way to live, and to die but that not many people can follow it to its letter. In other words most don't practice what they preach.:(
 
Yeah, Yvsa. And, some parts of the Judeo-Christian religions believe in original sin, so yer already damned, and ya hafta be saved.

Mac, well met! Do not apologise for the shortcomings of others, that is their path. You're obviously on the right path, and well grounded in your faith. They need more MacHetes in church! (wait--that didn't come out right...;))

Mac, apparently Yvsa and I observed the hypocrisy in most folks we saw that are chruch-goers, saw it even when I was going to church meself (poeple who pay lip service to their god, for one hour every seven days). Also I felt a bit brushed off, as no one there really had the answers, always came down to faith, which is like a parent saying "Because I said so." This seemed like the big brush off to me.

The only vision, only true religious exp I had was with my current set of beliefs...it was an amazing exp that happened one day, left me full sobbing and hot and cold sweat, goosebumps all over me (luckily it happened when most of the office folks were at lunch) it was quite a thing, a singular event that made my brain burn, and reality change around me. I felt reconfigured, reconnected to the old godheads, the ancestors, etc.

I have met a few competent and devout Christians, they reminded me of Buddhist monks in their holiness and groundedness. One was born again, and one was a Hindu that converted. He was very interesting to talk to. Interestingly enuf, they were farthest from being dogmatic bible-thumpers, not bound by words but by deeds.

Keith
 
Ferrous, my two best late friends both were Christians, though one a Mormon, and both fervently believed in Jesus and God. One was a mechanic and the other a engineer and physics instructor. Both though were wise men.

Bible thumpers get a lot of bad press.

I thought I'd tell you about original sin- how I finally got it. Like you, to me it made little sense, and was the groundwork of a religion of guilt. When I was around 30, I re- read the New Testament. Now, I'd read the Upanishads, the I Ching, and Lao Tse (If I've spelled his name right) The New Testament staggered me when I re- approached it. Doors opened. Anyway, I came to see Original Sin as the fact that no matter what we do, we are doomed to inflict harm on ourselves or others, if for no other reason we are limited in time and space. You're always saying you see things from different points of view at the same time- for instance, the Iraq mess is a good example- the truth is that when Men act they act in linear fashion, whereas both the World and Reality are round and not straight paths.


mystic munk
 
The Urantia Book is a very interesting read, especially the life and teachings of Jesus. Yvsa, have you ever heard of another similar book called Oahspe? If you like the Urantia Book, you might want to try to find a copy--they pop up on ebay pretty regularly for $10 or so.
--Josh
 
Josh Feltman said:
The Urantia Book is a very interesting read, especially the life and teachings of Jesus. Yvsa, have you ever heard of another similar book called Oahspe? If you like the Urantia Book, you might want to try to find a copy--they pop up on ebay pretty regularly for $10 or so.
--Josh
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Haven't heard of it Josh. You say similar, may I ask what is dissimilar about it if anything?;)
Generally interested in new reads such as this but I'd like to know a little more about it. I'll see what I can find out on Google.:D
 
thanks fer sharing that view and interpretation. There is an old Japanese saying that runs concurrent to that. It basically states that mankind is imperfect, will routinely F things up, and that it is prefection or a miracle when we don't F things up, and that is what we must strive for (not F-ing things up).

This also means if you remove man from the equation, then it balances much better (but gets boring fast).

I have invented perhaps 3 "maxims" and this one is in regards to Order vs. Chaos and observance of these principles as they run through all of existence:
"Chaos drives change in Order."

This also means that they are a function of each other, inseperable. In the most chaotic of times, there are islands of order. In the most static system, there will be pockets of chaos popping up. Order and chaos are equal yet opposite ends of the balance.

Wow this must be the third or 4th tangent on an OT thread that went OT...

Keith
 
Josh I Googled Oahspe and found out what I wanted to know. The Book is online, as well as the Urantia Book as I also discovered.
I found Its dissimilarity and read enough to know I'm not interested. At least the Urantia Book is written in a more plausible and scientific manner than Oahspe. Oahspe is way too far out for me.:eek: :D
 
There is an old Japanese saying that runs concurrent to that. It basically states that mankind is imperfect, will routinely F things up, and that it is prefection or a miracle when we don't F things up, and that is what we must strive for (not F-ing things up).

This also means if you remove man from the equation, then it balances much better (but gets boring fast).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferrous

Actually Keith, it doesn't balance better. We are nature.

< "Chaos drives change in Order."< . Ferrous
and as you write this, surely you must know that.

munk
 
Yvsa said:
Josh I Googled Oahspe and found out what I wanted to know. The Book is online, as well as the Urantia Book as I also discovered.
I found Its dissimilarity and read enough to know I'm not interested. At least the Urantia Book is written in a more plausible and scientific manner than Oahspe. Oahspe is way too far out for me.:eek: :D
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I guess I meant they are similar in the sense that they are both revealed texts (supposedly) of near-biblical proportions. Also, they both spend some time discussing the hierarchies of divinity, for lack of a better term--kinda like a celestial bureaucracy :D . Oahspe was written back in the late 1800's by a dentist. Of the two, I definitely prefer Urantia, but find them both interesting. There's another one by JJ Hurtak called The Keys of Enoch: The Book of Knowledge, though if you find Oahspe obscure, you probably wouldn't be interested in The Keys of Enoch either:) . I Guess I just like weird religious texts.
--Josh
 
OK Josh, here's a weird one, but its more about 112 paths to enlightenment. You pick one that sounds interesting, then do the mind technique for about a month. the Enlightenment happens all by itself. (A word of warning, though..some folks can't handle the truths revealed by some of the enlightenments. The world will shock you after you see it. I could tell some stories...) Each technique has its corollary opposite technique, for those who see the other side of the technique. Both will lead to the same enlightenment.

_Book of Secrets_ by Osho.

At the Amazon link below, you can read the Table of Contents and see if it sounds cool to you.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312180586/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref=nosim/104-4404021-1603155

Background:
"Osho elaborates on the meditation techniques described in the 5,000-year-old scripture, "Vigyan Bhairav Tantra". Different meditations relate to different energy centers in the body, and Osho explains the importance of opening ourselves up to these sources of well-being. Through an understanding of each method, listeners can isolate the technique or techniques that work best for them."

And a review by a reader:
"I didn't need to adopt a new religion, nor even have a religion, nor take up strange practices. (Depsite the dramatic title.) The approach here is a method; Tantra is a method, not a belief. All that was needed was an open mind and the will to try something simple. Osho expresses himself in English very clearly and vigorously, there is no mystical-technical jargon/tedium! If it works for you, there's no strenuous effort! But you may feel like you've lost a backpack of rocks you never knew you carried..."

Keith
 
Keith, is Osho the artist formerly known as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh? I've read a few of his books under that name. Good stuff. I'll have to check out the Book of Secrets.
--Josh
 
Easter can put a whole new spin on the bird and the bees here we have a rabbit that delivers eggs,try and explain that one to a child. Kinda like a chicken delivering puppies.
 
smokinbasser said:
Easter can put a whole new spin on the bird and the bees here we have a rabbit that delivers eggs,try and explain that one to a child. Kinda like a chicken delivering puppies.
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Or a chicken going to the dentist.
 
For those who profess Christianity as their belief system, and want to get into it more deeply some fascinating book(s) I found valuable are:

Richard J. Foster's:
Celebration Of Discipline and also his
Celebrationg the Disciplines: a Study Guide to accompany ( COD ), and Richard J. Foster's Study Guide for COD

He's a Quaker, but teaches the discipling methods going back to the Desert Fathers. He also has a book on Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home, which disects the different kinds of prayer and their uses.

Not pushing anything, but much like the Western Martial Arts were forgotten for the last century or two doesn't mean they never were, likewise the spiritual disciplines of Christianity have been preserved quietly and are again available.

If you want to go with Eastern religious practice to find a path to enlightenment, fine. I just wanted to make you aware of the Western traditions/disciplines available to you.
 
Hm...IIRC...
By one man death entered into the world, and death by sin, so that death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

There is none righteous, no, not one.

All our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Etc...

The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom...

(For you Christians- ever notice how many times you're commanded to "fear the Lord"?)

Though, interestingly enough, "God hath not given us the spirit of fear..."

:barf:

(But, no Christians need worry about this heathen quoting the Bible, 'cuz "God's word will not return void"...)

John
 
I didn't understand fear of the Lord until I understood being exposed by the Light. There are two Lights in this context; one dissecting, thorough, and impartial, the other Expansive and Perfect and Giving. The first is as if by Man, and is probably made by Man. The second the Great Heart. With the second you can live- forever? With the first you might as well die. Most intelligent men see the first, and many think the second only a dream.

When men fear the Lord- they fear the sum total of their deeds and awareness measured exactly against an impartial media. No one stands against that. If you've ever awakened at three am without hope you know the first. I know you well enough to say you know the second also- but probably not in my terms.

I never thought anyone should follow my gobbledy gook, learned wandering the Mojave, but it works for me. It works because it really isn't mine, you see.

edit- I guess I should say the second is more than you will ever know, 'transcendent' comes to mind, and is easy as breath to carry, it is a Gift. The first is exactly all you will ever know in weary detail, laboriously hammered or etched out, as if on your hide.

munk
 
Proverbs 8:13 "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil..."

I've always taken the "fear the Lord" phrase to mean "be humble before, respect". Sort of the way a dog 'fears' it's master. I wish I were fluent in the ancient languages from whence the English word "fear" was translated. But I gather from the sum of it's uses in the Bible, that God is telling us 'I AM the only thing you need to be afraid of. Do right by me, and I'll take care of everything else.'

And Spectre- The verse is "For by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, so that death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

"Sin" merely means "to fall short" or "fail to reach a goal". I make a distinction between 'sin' and 'evil'. Our human imperfection, no matter how hard we try, makes us all 'sinners'. 'Evil', in my understanding, is an act of will. But, a perfect God cannot tolerate either, although He's been known to give credit for effort. :D
 
That's right. I'm always so happy when I finally start forgetting verses! Gives me hope that there'll be more room for stuff I actually want in my head. :)

Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.

John
 
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