OT: handguns, chime in with opinions please

Of course, you pick 3 of my favorite guns to choose between. Are you talking about a full size pistol, a mid size pistol, or a compact carry model?

If you're talking Full size:
1911's - All standard Springfields are good. can't go wrong with a 1911A1.
Sig - again, very good guns. I do still prefer 1911's and USP's over sigs, though.
USP - If you're going full size 45acp USP, spend the extra $300 and get the Tactical(USP Full size here is $700, Tactical is $982). It's a little bit heftier, but the accuracy increase is quite nice, and I do like having the full 5" of barrel length, rather than just 4.4" as well as the Adjustable sights.

Mid-Size:
Here my vote has to go to a Commander Length 1911. It's tried and tested and works quite well.

Compact Carry:
The Springfield Ultra Compact and Micro Compact are nice, but even though I'm a 1911 fan, they're just too small for my hands.
I also prefer carry pistols to be double action on the first pull of the trigger, so I'd suggest the USP Compact for a carry gun.

As has been mentioned here, Glock has a nice selection of guns, even though I personally don't like them that well. (Pretty much just prejudice though, I've just been using 1911's too long not to have a physical safety that I can activate)

TC
 
I hear a lot of good stuff about Glocks. But back when I used to shoot I tried a rental at the range and it just did not feel right. It felt like a toy, all that plastic. The HK is like that too so I might get that vibe when I try it. We shall see.
 
I think you can get the 220 with a plastic bottom. I was behind the learning curve with plastic. I rejected it too. I trust steel. Many people report the Glock grip angle wonderful, others not so good.

I wish I could be there to watch you experience this, Bobwhite. It would be fun. That's what this is about too.

It is worth keeping in mind that today's safties are redundant and can get in the way, as can operation selection, double action only, single action first shot, double action following...

munk
 
Well, sounds like you got the bux to get one of those top line HKs or SIGs, but I rely on my Ruger P-90 DC double action. It's a big framed intimidator, all silver and anodized alloy lower part. Its fer big hands, but has oversized trigger guard for ease in shooting iwth gloves. It was a fave in the Police biz for a while inn the 90's and saw certain screen debuts with Hollywood when it was new.

7-round straight clip, and if you need more than that, you're in a war, not a defensives sit.

Gun has good tolerances, wide ejection port, smooth operation, easy takedown, and no safety switch to trifle with. Has a hammer block, and a decock switch.

Good gun fer the money, but you sound like you're gonnna blow some $$$ on a 45, so I doubt that the piddly Ruger will satisfy your top end shooting tastes. You could get a Pair of P-90s for the price of that HK or SIG, I bet. My last name is Sauer, so I've always wanted a SigSauer.

There's probably some reviews of this an other 45s on the web.

Keith
 
Bobwhite most people quit carrying because they chose a weapon too heavy and too large. Sometimes they get taken down because in the excitement they forget how to deploy the weapon. I recommend you take a long hard look at the Keltec-32 http://www.kel-tec.com/ as a light, reliable and inexpensive weapon. You won't kill any elephants with it but then again, how many elephants do you meet? What I like is that the Keltec is double-action only, so it doesn't go off untill you pull the trigger. It also doesn't need to be racked to be ready or require going through the lock & load and decock of the others. You pull it out and point it. BTW, it makes an ideal purse gun for the missus.

Stephen
 
When the Ruger came out Dean Grennel was putting some beyond plus P loads through it. (Guns mag) "Are you sure you ought to do that?" Asked a staffer, "that's only a cast receiver."

"Yes, but it's a Ruger cast reciever."

Very strong arm. If the military could have waited four years I think they would have been better off with a military design P89 instead of the Beretta. Like the 1911, I think there would still be Rugers in service in 60 years....



munk
 
I wish I could take some of you guys with me when I go looking. I am going to be rusty and it is always good to have another opinion on the spot. I like Rugers a lot Ferrous, but I think Revolver with them. I plan on getting a Vaquero or a Blackhawk to get my single action wheelgun kicks with.
 
The factors that are most important to me are accuracy, reliability and ease of maintenance. Thanks for the input and keep it coming. [/B][/QUOTE]

Based on those factors, I'd look at the Sig/Sauer 220 or the Glock 30, whichever feels better in the hand. If possible, find a shop with a range attached so you can put some rounds through each.
Have fun looking ( I always do !)

Edwardbear
 
Whenever I've taken a class it's been pointed out the purpose of a defensive handgun is to STOP A SERIES OF ACTIONS on an offenders part.

Whether he lives or dies of the results is not an issue at the time. If one shot stops him and he lives, fine. If ten shots fail and you have to reload and fire more rounds into him, resultantly causing his death from multipe wounds it is/was his choice to continue the assault.
 
Bob,
If I may offer a suggestion! Go check out a nice gun range,see what they have to rent to shoot & try out various guns,Glock 40's may surprise you! This way you are not out a lot of $$$ & get stuck with something you later wish you never had purchased,too heavey to conceal,jams,not fun to practice with etc.!! Just a thought.
jim(Saint)cool:
 
Stephen--I didn't think anyone would mention the Keltec-32. I keep one in my truck door pouch loaded with hollow-points which, with proper bullet placement, will do the job. Of course, I'll have my Glock 36 for backup. :) :)
 
I Agree with all of them,But a hole is a hole.What i find out is how fast are they going to bleed out(Groupings)....I have the Springfield 1911 MIL SPEC and I love it.Will order a Nowlin barrel soon.But anyway I would go for the Sig 220.My buddy has one and it's very accurate.I also like the de-cocking safety on it.As u can see I'm not an expert to carry the 1911 cocked and locked yet.:D So good luck and be careful!! FRANK C....;)
 
Bob,
IMO I'd go with whatever feels good to YOU. I'd try to find a gunshop near by that has one of each of the weapons you've mentioned or maybe a couple of your friends that have one of the guns mentioned that you could shoot. Shoot each if possible and buy the one you like.
For what it's worth all three weapons are an excellent choice. I've owned at one time or another one of each of these weapons. The Sig is a little on the large side but very well built, if weight is not an issue it would do well. The HK IMO is overrated and I personally didn't like it. The 1911 is an outstanding weapon, it's an old weapon design but it works well. It's easy to maintain and repair with lots of parts available to keep one up and running. And the basic Springfield model is a good platform to build a custom gun on if you choose to.
Hope this helps.
Mike
 
Bobwhite said:
I guess I will go looking this weekend and see which guns feel best in my hand and then shoot them if possible.
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That is when you will know which one you want. For me it was a Colt 1911. The first time I picked one up I could put five shots into an inch at 15 yards with no trouble. I had a hard time doing that with the CZ's, Berettas, S&W's, Rugers, etc. that I tried. The main thing is to try them all. Your hands will tell you which one they like best. ;) Have a look at the S&W L-frame revolvers and the Hi-Power too; they are both mighty comfy to shoot. .45 isn't the only game in town, and .38 special/9mm is cheaper to shoot (at least up here).


I believe in the have one gun and know it inside and out philosophy, so whatever I get will get used A LOT.
Click to expand...

:cool:
 
Both the 38 special and the 45 auto were an attempt to increase the stopping power of the army's 38 Colt round which failed to do the job in the Philipines on Moros hyped- up to continue their attacks as long as they could still will themselves to.

Into the 60's and 70's the 38 continued as an issue caliber with most law enforcement agencies. About that time Lee Juras of Super Vel and another guy named Harvey began to offer replacements for the full jacketed auto calibers and the lead round nose slugs of the revolvers. Now, bullets designed to expand out of standard length barrels are becoming commonplace. Where 38 specials before had a 50 % stopping average, they now run closer to 70-75 % single shot stops.

Short barreled 38 spl revolvers and 380 autos had performed roughly equivalent in effective power before the controlled expansion rounds came along. With the new bullets, they continue to do so, but again fall short of the standard service pistols. They remain for most people as much as they are willing to carry ( and to shoot well ). Though recent developments allow more powerful rounds to be carried, they also are much harder to shoot well.

I used 30 years ago to shoot a snubby 2 &1/2" K frame with full power loads in the Distinguished Master class, and full charge 680/700 foot pound energy 41 magnums out of 4" fixed sight revolvers in the expert class on good days. I used to shoot the snubby 357 offhand ( 2 handed ) at gallon milk jugs at up to 100 yard and regularly make hits more than half the time. That was then, this is now.

Today I carry a 38 spl airweight Bodyguard habitually, and with an increase in the likelihood that I may
need a gun, add a 13+1 shot 380 and extra magazine. My eyes, resistance to kick and blast leading to flinching and so on are functioning at a diminished capacity now. So I've moved down to less powerful but easier to shoot quickly and accurately calibers. If I know I'll need more than that, someone else can go for me. And they'll take a team along when they go more likely than not.
 
Rusty, why do you think a 90 or 115 gr .355 diameter bullet from a .380 equivilant to a .357 diameter 158 gr from a .38? It isn't, even from a snubby, especially considering 380's have short barrels themselves. Only in energy are they roughly the same.

Even the old 158 round nose from a 38 has a better chance of penetration than the 115 from a 380. It is simply a longer, heavier bullet and will outperform the shorter stubbier one every time at similar velocities.

While modern expansion bullets made the 38 more attractive, they have barely been able to make the 380 adequate.

No, that does not mean I would like to be struck by a bullet from a .380 !!! Certainly not 13 of them. 13 of them seem entirely, much more than 'adequate' to me! Especially in the hands of a shooter.




munk
 
I come back for a quick look around and discover you guys are talking about guns again! I guess I will have to chime in.

The very best advice you have gotten is to go to a range that has rentals and try several. I personally love the feel of the Glock 17 in my hand but when I handed it to Yvsa he was very certain of his dislike. Different people like the feel of different things. And "feel in the hand" is just one part. You also have to have "feel on firing" because there have been several guns I liked over the years right up until I fired them. And it wasn't because of heavy recoil or something since I still like that stuff. It was just that they "felt wrong" to me.

re: penetration. If velocity and bullet construction are equal, the smaller diameter bullet will penetrate further. Think of an ice pick driving through a "bullet proof" vest. A hot 9mm is much harder to stop than a lumbering .45 ACP. Especially if the .45 is a hollow point. 230 grain FMJ does tend to go through a lot of things since it doesn't deform and there is a lot of mass there to slow down. But the lowest level vest will stop one. Whether penetration of walls is a problem depends on where you live. I'm aware of where my children sleep (room next door) and wouldn't fire in that direction. But there is nobody else out here for miles so it wouldn't bother me to unlimber an AR-15 or FAL if that was all that came to hand when bad guys kicked in the door. (Although how they would get that close with ten dogs in the yard and house I don't know!) I have a Russian side by side 12 gauge with hammers that I keep loaded and on top of a seven foot china cabinet if time allowed.

re: carry vs open carry or just shooting at the range

As several have said, size and weight matter the most when using your CCW and carrying. I normally carry a S&W 640-1 in .357 Magnum. It shoots very, very well for me and isn't too big. I can drop it into my fanny pack or coat pocket and go. I sometimes put it in the front pocket of my overalls when I go to town to Wal-Mart or something. The H&K you mentioned is a fine "duty gun" or range gun but I wouldn't want to try to carry it concealed. The other two would both be fine _if_ they feel good to you.

You didn't mention what your experience level was. I'm very reluctant to advise people to get SA automatics unless they are approaching professional level expertise. I see the 1911 as just that: a choice of professionals. I love old slabsides but I can't see recommending it to people for CCW without a really good idea of their experience level. And if they had that much experience, would they really be asking people on a knife list about them?

Ideas for other guns to try at the rental range:

Check out the Paras with LDA triggers. The new CCW model feels _very_ good to me and is much safer for carry than a standard 1911.

Go ahead and shoot a Glock. Try the single stack 36 and the double stack shorties. Of the micro Glocks, I prefer the 26 (9mm) or 27 (.40). They have their own issues though and need careful holster selection. Don't drop one of these in your pocket bare! (The new Glock 37 in .45 Glock looks very interesting as well but I haven't seen or shot one yet. And I do like the 10mm a lot but it is another _expert only_ type of thing. There are advantages compared to .45 ACP no matter what the King of Senility says. Will you people still be quoting him when drool comes out of his mouth when he speaks? http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm

The biggest problem I have with .40 S&W is that is has to be loaded right up to red line to be effective. That is what leads to KB's with unsupported barrels. A slight setback of the bullet in the case during feeding, reloading a bulged case, or just a slightly "too hot" charge and you have a serious incident. I would like to keep all my fingers and eyes since God said I don't get any more. I shoot .40's but I can't really fall in love with them. I tend to either drop down to 9mm (which is a great round with modern ammo) or up to 10mm or .45 ACP. And that assumes that I only get to use semi-autos. My love will always be revolvers. That's what I usually carry. Any of the big boys (.357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, or .45 Colt) gives me better feelings of peace and security than any autoloader.

Go forth and figure out what feels good to you!
 
munk,
Your views on 38 vs. 380 may be rightBUT what happens to your theory if the 380 is a H & K P7K3(380)!! It has an octagone(sp??)barrel & comes out "hotter" than a normal rifled barrel!!I agree with your thought ,I don't want to get shot with ANYTHING!!
jim(Saint) :cool:
 
I might as well get in this debate as well!

Here's a page of .380 ACP Advocacy. It lays out the numbers and issues fairly well: http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/380/380-advoc.htm

If we look at Cor-Bon's site, we can get some hard numbers: http://www.cor-bon.com/ammo.html

These numbers were taken in 4 and 5 inch barrels so let's ignore the actual top number and look at the differences between rounds instead. So we would expect a 3" .380 to have a similiar drop in power compared to a 3" 9mm. (It doesn't exactly work out that way but close enough for now!)

It looks like we give up about 450 fps when we go .380 +P from 9mm +P. That is a big drop for the same bullet. But it is only abou 200 fps slower than a .38 Special +P (slightly heavier bullet though). So yes, .380 isn't too great but it isn't THAT bad. With modern ammo, it will probably do as well as a .38 Special with non +P ammo. You do need to make sure you are using a premium brand of ammo like Cor-Bon or Proload.

But I'll take the big revolver rounds. A 125 grain .357 Magnum at 1450 fps stops people right now. So does a 170 gr. .41 Magnum at 1275 fps. (But notice that 10mm can almost do that: 165 gr. at 1250 fps.) Or a medium load in .44 Mag, 165 grains at 1300. I sometimes carry a .44 Special with Cor-bon's and that gets a 165 grain bullet up to 1150 fps. That should work quite well. (To be honest, I've shot a few medium size critters with Cor-bon's 9mm +P round and it worked very well. You would expect that since it has nearly .357 Mag velocities: 115 grain JHP at 1350 fps.)

Cor-bon makes a new round called the PowR-Ball that looks interesting. If I carried a .45 ACP I would be testing it: http://www.cor-bon.com/PowRball.html Same basic specs as the above .44 Special with a special bullet that should feed well and expand reliably.
 
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