OT: handguns, chime in with opinions please

It is how you shoot not what you shoot.

I can talk about calibars and pistols vs revolvers, but the street has taught those who deal with the bad guys, shoot accurate and there is no arguments. The New York Italian policeman, who is the modern day Wyatt Earp, has killed more BG with a .38 special than anyone else in a modern shoot out.


A 100 years ago I instructed my class to have a weapon that they would have at all times. Your best pistol is the one you have now, . ;)

Sam BANG,
 
It is how you shoot not what you shoot.

I can talk about calibars and pistols vs revolvers, but the street has taught those who deal with the bad guys, shoot accurate and there is no arguments.
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That's _almost_ always true. I agree with you in spirit. Becoming proficient with your choice is the most important thing. Learning how to properly maintain it and what ammunition to feed it. Developing the mindset that allows you to react when everything goes to hell all at once.

BUT, there have been plenty of cases over the years where a person died because their choice of weapon let them down. Rusty already mentioned the Moros and the .38's. Some of those Moros died after killing the American and they discovered nice tight six shot groups in their chests. They still kept coming long enough to use that knife. The Americans brought in "obselete" SAA's in .45 Colt and the situation changed. Radically!

Lots of police departments had trouble with .38 Special, especially those that had to do traffic stops. You can be the best shot in the world but if your round won't go through a car door, you could be in real trouble. The Miami Shootout that started the whole last round of FBI tests showed that you can get good hits but the bad guy can still kill all the good guys. Rounds the FBI fired expanded too fast and didn't get deep enough penetration. That led to improved ammunition that we can all buy today. The Hollywood bank robbery showed that regular cops and regular handguns don't have much chance against rifle armed bad guys wearing body armor. Perhaps if one of them had been good enough to go for a head shot (called for on the radio) they could have shut them down but mainly they just needed the "right weapon." (In this case, a rifle.) Or the famous case of the trooper who died despite putting all six Federal .357 Magnums into the torso of a bad guy. The trooper was lying on the ground firing up though and the bad guy's huge gut soaked them up and kept them from getting to vital organs. He would have been much better served in that case with a heavy, deep penetrating 10mm.

So yes, you need to practice. But you also need to be up to date on the current knowledge of guns and ammunition. The true professional looks for every edge he can get. That 5% might be what saves his butt!
 
Your best pistol is the one you have now, .
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Mayday, Mayday, I'm coming in for a crash landing! What if you already have dozens of handguns?! Are they all _the best one?_ It's like telling some of the locals here that the best knife is the one they already have! That could make their eyes roll back in their heads!
 
Guys,
Guess I'm just old, was taught at an early age ,"Put two in the chest & one in the head" the BG won't care if it's a 45,38,380 etc!I don't have faith in magic bullets or one shot kills,if it happens ok!! I 'll just stick to the way I was taught! Ok,someone says,you can't hit him in the head,then what!! Simple!! Keep hitting him until he stops moving!:D
jim(Saint):cool: (Lordy,Ireally HATE agreeing with Rus about ANYTHING)!!:grumpy:
 
I had a beautiful old flat latch Chiefs'38 that was my dad's that I shot loose with a single box of +P.

My airweight Bodyguard is not rated for +P so I use Magsafes. The few 125 Nyclad std. pressure I have left are hoarded, and no longer available on the market. That is why I rate the std 38 out of a snub as equivalent to the 380. I am continuing a search for a limited expansion round that will also penetrate deeply ( 12-14" ). Once I replace the cylinder latch return springs in the unshrouded bbl Cobra and Police Positive Special ( both rated for +P ) I will move up to Cor-Bon 158 lhp's.

I also continue to search for limited expansion 380's that penetrate the same way as snub 38's ( 12-14" ).

( Most of home protection guns section deleted ) plus an FN49 with 200 rounds of 175 ball in 7x57 just in case I need to cull rogue elephants around downtown Hawthorne ( ala WDM - Karamojo - Bell ).
 
1911's are wonders in all the flavors they can come in. The grips can be thin or thick or custom to your hand. They can also have heavy or light triggers. They can be made so anyone can be a good shot with it. The problems are liability in a potential shootouts,accidental discharges and comfort.
I love the 1911's and have shot several hundred thousand rounds of factory fmj to target softballs. I do not know anyone who has a large amount of experience who can honestly say they never had a AD.
This is easy due to the single action and stress of the situation. It may be alright to lose a round on the range but another when you have a live target under the gun. 1911's are for those who are or close to pro's. For self defense its a gun hard not to shoot since it is so easy to fire.
I believe the glock is the way to go if you like the 1911 due to the longer trigger pull . I have used glocks for years and they are the easiest gun to clean. All you need is some carb cleaner, bore brush and a silicon rag.
I think sigs are the best for most people who intend to have a carry and target gun. The are dependable , safe, and have the best factory double action trigger around.
But what is all comes down to is , what do you like, feel and can shoot well with no warmup shots or warning. Try as many as you can and pratice. Best of luck.
 
I loved a M60. 7.62 belt fed. Some of the Team members could carry a load!!!!!!

I wasted a few zeros with a model 60 S&w .38........... done deal.

Sam

I thought I would add, I spent the evening at dinner with a Les Baer, Concept V, cocked and locked. A cobra, ready to strike! :(
 
re: penetration. If velocity and bullet construction are equal, the smaller diameter bullet will penetrate further. Think of an ice pick driving through a "bullet proof" vest. A hot 9mm is much harder to stop than a lumbering .45 ACP. - tusumal

You forgot to bring bullet weight into the above statement, which renders it nonsensical. Please add it before my mind ruptures! Yes, a hot 9mm may be harder to stop- more pentration, but has a lower percentage of one shot stops against human target because of that fat heavy .45 bullet transmitting more force.

Rusty, I have some nyclads. A few. They were one of the first attempts to make snubbies good.

All of you fans of the .380; good ammo for it is only recently available do to lack of interest- on the public or shooters part I'm not sure. The .38 has had good commercial loads for over 30 years.

I'm not sure what to make of the observation of HK's faster octagonal barrel. They used to say Colt was fast because the barrels narrowed almost imperceptably; many well made barrels are faster than average barrels. Yes, with a fast barrel, and the hottest load you can find, the 380 will do good things to bad people. A 38 will do it easier, especially in a plus p frame and 4 to 6 inch barrel.

I must say to being a little starteled by the sudden advocacy of the .380 Geeze; you'd think you were a misunderstood, unloved, disrespected group called out of the wilderness at last to stand by your round! Don't tell me about it. I've been defending the number one orphan for years; the .41 mag. And no, the 10, as fine a round as I know of, is not the equal of the .41 It is however, the best way to get or exceed .357 mag power with a larger diameter bullet in an autoloader. Shame on all of us for letting it die!

People say the .32H&R is not adequate as a defensive round but I can load it to normal mag pressures instead of those whimpy H&R break open pressures for which the round had to be set and make it zip.

You wouldn't want to get zipped, would you?

munk
 
Rusty, I've made worse or the same stupid mistake with guns as shooting plus p loads in a classic not built for them. Isn't it frightening the mistakes one can make without even trying hard?

Plus P snubbie .38's are everywhere. I had a Tarus.


munk
 
You forgot to bring bullet weight into the above statement, which renders it nonsensical. Please add it before my mind ruptures! Yes, a hot 9mm may be harder to stop- more pentration, but has a lower percentage of one shot stops against human target because of that fat heavy .45 bullet transmitting more force.
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Bullet weight matters if you are figuring muzzle energy. It affects that part of the equation called momentum. But it doesn't really matter to penetration. At least within normal limits. Sure, you could make a bullet out of plastic, have it be .30 caliber and push it to 4000 fps and it probably wouldn't penetrate a vest. But if you look at bulletproof vest rankings, straight 9mm hardball is the toughest "normal round" to stop. Actually 7.62 Tok is the "toughest to stop" with a vest in a handgun round but not that many bad guys running around with those. Toks and CZ-52's are fun to shoot though.)

The .45 ACP hardball has "more momentum" at 230 grains but you can stop it with the lightest bulletproof vest. Or a car door. I've shot at several junked cars over the years and always test driver's door penetration. If we throw out little plastic model cars and only look at ones with real sheet metal, I've never seen .45 ACP reliably punch through car doors. Sometimes it makes it through and you find it lying on the floor on the other side. Not enough remaining energy to hurt a cat much less a 240 pound drunk lunatic trying to run you down with a 3500 pound car.

.41 Magnum is great for that, even with the old "police loading." They apparently picked a lead bullet style with good penetration because they go right through even though muzzle velocity isn't very high. Hunting level .41's and .44's whistle right through both doors of course but not many people carry at that level.

This reminds me of one of my own peculiar behaviors. The wife likes to drag me along on long walks down country roads. Probably the safest place you can be but I always start thinking about the highway and how it is only a few miles away. What crazy city person might be out cruising unlit country roads looking for somebody to kill for fun? It could happen. _In Cold Blood_ (the book) gave a lot of country folks the willeys. Anway, if an attack came, how would I meet it? I figure people like that would probably try to use their car as a weapon. I would expect them to at least try to run you down. If you successfully got in the ditch they might come back and shoot at you from inside the car. So whatever I carry, it has to be effective against a car. So I've started to carry a Ruger Bisley Vaquero on walks. Not too unusual but the ammo is. I bought a couple boxes of that hunting ammo Cor-bon makes. They label it ".45 Colt Magnum +P" and recommend it only for Rugers or better. No SAA Colts or replicas. It fires a 265 grain bullet at 1350 fps. And that bullet is a "bonded core" style meant to hold together on the bones of an elk or something. I fired a few at some steel down by the railroad track and it went through everything I've got. Those loads would have no problem punching a big hole in an engine or the people in the car. It is a big heavy ass gun though!

re: stopping power of .45 ACP vs 9mm. We probably better not go there! Hardball vs hardball, no problem. But with the very best modern ammunition out of a service length barrel (like my Glock 17) I strongly doubt .45 ACP has more stopping power. I don't believe in the Marshall tests but we do know police departments across the country had great results with Federal .357 Magnum, 125 grain JHP's. Texas police said they put people down like a lightening bolt. Well 9mm +P ammo in 115 or 125 grain bullets are only 100-150 fps behind full house .357's. I have zero doubt they would stop a man better than .45 hardball and suspect they would work better than most .45 HP's (since most of the ones I've seen don't reliably expand). Now if you buy Cor-bon or Proload .45's or the FBI Hydrashocks or Golden Sabres, OK, I'll say you are _marginally_ better in stopping power. But only in frontal shots with no cover or bulletproof vests. In the real world where people crouch behind cover or wear heavy leather jackets with chains, I want more penetration than I'm going to get with a .45 ACP. I would either carry a magnum revolver, a 10mm autoloader, or even a good 9mm. At least I will get better tactical penetration.

Hey, we can't agree on everything! At least we both like .41 Magnums! And I hot load .32 Magnum myself with Sierra 90 grain JHC bullets and AA #7 powder. I can get it up to .38 Special +P levels. But I don't believe in using handloads for self defense. Especially ones loaded way above standard specifications. I use my hot .32's for shooting medium varmints like skunks, coyotes, etc.

Guess you guys are still having winter up there? We have already hit 80 once and have four more of those days coming. I've already planted some stuff in the garden. I think it's time to put out more! And I've been shooting almost every day. I stunk up the place shooting trap with the shotgun yesterday. I missed the first five before I got my timing back and didn't miss any more. Oh well, shotgun wing shooting is my worst thing.
 
Here's another 2 cents worth.

Carry a 1911 Colt with Federal Match 230 gr ball ammo. Condition 1 (cocked and locked). I used to carry only Black Talons until a lawyer told me about using that ammo (or any hollow point type) to prove the shooter was LOOKING for a fight otherwise why would he carry such nasty ammo? FMJ round nose works almost as well. Plus no feed problems and it is target ammo.

I do know this much. No matter how nasty the bad guy, somebody loved him. You may avoid criminal prosecution but you can count on a civil action and getting sued for everything you own if you ever shoot someone.
 
You may avoid criminal prosecution but you can count on a civil action and getting sued for everything you own if you ever shoot someone.
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Not to belabor the obvious but if someone breaks into my house with a machete and the intention to chop up my entire family, I'm not going to worry TOO MUCH about whether I get sued or not. I would rather be alive than dead. I would rather have my family be alive than dead. If you force me to choose between you being alive or me, I'm sorry but I don't know you and you must go now!

Nobody should be out there with a gun who thinks it would be cool to shoot somebody. But I honestly wouldn't hesitate to put somebody down if they were trying to kill me or somebody else. They made their own choice when they decided to try to murder somebody. I'm not going to worry about whether their mother loved them or if I will get sued. If somebody is going to be murdered if I don't act, then I will. We will deal with the fallout afterwards. (And you can bet I will say "I was in fear for my life" many times!)
 
tulsamal

Just to be clear, I didn't say don't shoot the bastid. :)

But realize what will happen later. :cool:
 
Tusamal- if the bullet construction and sectional density and ballistic coefficient is the same for 2 bullets, one large diameter and one small, and their energy is the same, you may then generalize about some characteristics of penetration- but it entirely depends upon what is being penetrated! Wood? Rhino? Men? Plasterboard?
Penetration is an issue for the more marginal rounds, not the 45 acp. You'll get enough penetration to do the job, with that and almost all defensive pistol cartridges unless you go to the 25 or 32 acp.

If you want to argue nine vs 45 you are correct, we disagree, and science and stats back my postion that the 45 is altogether a superior defensive fight stopper. You cannot possibly compare the velocity of a 125 gr .357 at 1400 to 1500fps out of a 4" to 6 inch barrel to that of a Nine, and then use the former to demonstrate how good the Nine is. The Nine is not a 357!!!! The Nine does 1200fps with a 123-4 gr bullet, if that. And for all of you out there in, Defend Your Favorite Cartridge Land, finding a rare specialty load that defends your postion is not the same as being able to walk into any store and buy a suitable ammunition for cartridge without difficulty.

If you want to argue superior bullets have narrowed the gap, I agree.

People like different calibres for different reasons. The .41 is more efficient out of shorter barrels than the .44 mag; but it is still not a .44 mag nor is the .44 mag even a 45 Colt if that grand old bird is loaded right.

I like small calbres very much. I am not an Elmer Keith afficianado but liked Jack OConnor and his 270

But for stopping bad guys, or bad animals at close range, bigger heavier bullets are the way to go.

What is it about gun guys anyway? IF we devoted this much opinion and effort to curing cancer you gotta wonder what the world would look like today.

munk
 
Semper Fi, Black Talon got a rep and splashed into the news and was scapegoated. There were and are defensive ammuntions as good or better. You do not have to use hardball. Many companies make ammunition specific for home defense, and it probably says so on the box.

I wouldn't buy a box of Johnny Rip His Heart Out, but there's enough to choose from and I don't think even Ayoob would object.


munk
 
You cannot possibly compare the velocity of a 125 gr .357 at 1400 to 1500fps out of a 4" to 6 inch barrel to that of a Nine, and then use the former to demonstrate how good the Nine is. The Nine is not a 357!!!! The Nine does 1200fps with a 123-4 gr bullet, if that.
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Cor-bon sells a 9mm +P that sends a 125gr. .355" bullet out of a four inch barrel at 1250 fps. And I get that much or even slightly more out of my Glock 17 so they aren't lying. Now I agree that the .357 Mag is going to get about 200 feet per second more but that's not _that much_ of a difference for the same diameter bullets. If the .357 with 125's is a "10" then you would think a 9mm with 125's going 200 fps slower would at least be an 8.5!

I do sometimes carry that load but after I reviewed the data about penetration and expansion, I decided the results were basically the same for Cor-bon's 115 and their 125 grain bullets. If the 115 is tough enough to penetrate just as far but still expands reliably, then I'll take the higher velocity. The 115 +P load from Cor-bon runs over 1350 from my guns. And as a dedicated .357 Magnum man, I can tell you I don't see much difference in actual killing power between them. I haven't shot a man with each but I have shot critters on the farm. They both are totally deadly on skunks or wild dogs.

I have a basic 1911 in .45 ACP. I like shooting it but don't have much luck with it for similar types of things. The arching trajectory makes it much tougher to hit a smallish animal at any real distance. And my "mil-spec" type 1911 isn't nearly as accurate as my .357's or my Glock 17 either. "Minute of man," sure. "Minute of skunk," nope. And when you do hit an animal with it, you don't get the sledgehammer kill you do with .357 or 9mm +P. You get a big hole but you don't get the energy transfer.

Rusty already mentioned Super Vel and the history of super high velocity hollow points in handgun ammunition. Most everybody thinks that went too far. We ended up with bullets like Winchesters Silvertips in 9mm. They expanded beautifully but only penetrated 7-9". In opposition to that were people who wanted a big heavy bullet that would penetrate to the vitals. But it is important to recognize the importance of the Miami shootout and the subsequent FBI tests. All the major makers went back and redesigned their hollow points to give much better penetration. In actual anti-personnel use, today's handgun bullets are the best we've ever had. Until you really test some XTP's, Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, or Hydrashocks, you can't really appreciate how reliable they really are. If I can get nearly .357 Magnum velocities out of a 115 grain HP which will penetrate over 12" in gelatin and passes all the FBI tests, why would I want to use a .45 with hardball? (And that is exactly what I see most .45 people carrying for 100% reliability in their 1911's. I already said I admire the .45's in Hydrashock or Golden Saber but I don't really think they have much real advantage over the top 9mm's.)

I think a lot of the 9mm/.45 debate goes back to military service pistols. We all loved our 1911's and lots of us don't like the M9 (myself included). If I had to follow military rules and carry only hardball, then of course .45 is the way to go. I'm not and I don't.

The FBI could carry whatever they wanted. They would have gone to .45 if they really believed it was the ultimate in stopping power. They didn't, at least partly because they were concerned about tactical penetration of hard barriers, heavy clothing, and bulletproof vests. They went to the 10mm which had promise. And then they asked that it be downloaded so much that the .40 S&W was born. In a lot of ways, it is a great compromise between .45 and 9mm. It just bothers me that it has to be loaded so hot to be effective. I would rather use 10mm myself but that means you have to use a .45 size gun instead of a 9mm size one. Everything is a tradeoff. The Glock 29 is a sweet little thing though!
 
200 fps means a lot with handguns, much less with rifles, as the difference between 800fps to 1000fps, or 1000fps to 1200fps in a handgun represents a substancial power increase whereas the 200 fps increase of a 308 calibre from 2700 to 2900 much less. The nine is no 45. The history of one shot stops does not support the nine, but the 45 and 357. The 357 was the leader when I used to read this stuff. that may have changed in the last 10 years.

Yes, the FBI wanted something other than the .45 acp, which many found difficult to handle, and more powerful than the nine. Their elite units, as well as elite military units, prefer the 45. Swat teams pick the 45. LA Swat just picked the 45.

I never was on the anti nine bandwagon via it as a poodle killer. That it isn't as good as a 40 or 45 does not mean it is not reasonable. It is reasonable.

Frankly, why go 40 if you can go 45 within the same mag capacity? The 40 is not as accurate as the 45acp. It is arguably just as 'difficult' to shoot, if difficult is a fair description, as the 45 acp because of the higher pressure to which it is loaded to make up the difference between itself and the larger round within the small case.

WE should have gone 41 action express. Could have swapped nine barrels out and bushings and had a whole new level of defensive use.

High capacity mags are useful, but we must remember the miss to hit ratio went way up upon transition from revolver to high capacity semi auto by police.

munk
 
Side arms are just plain handy. That is why we carry them instead of long guns most places.
 
Frankly, why go 40 if you can go 45 within the same mag capacity?
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The #1 advantage is that you can move to a 9mm size frame instead of a .45 size one. So you can get a micro Glock like the Model 27 in a "big bore" caliber. Or some of the small Kahr's or XD's. You can put .40 in guns you can't put .45 in. Well, unless you are talking the new .45 Glock. It is going to be very interesting to see if we get micro Glocks, Kahr's, etc. in that caliber. It looks good on paper. But won't it suffer from the same structural problem as the .40: must be loaded to maximum pressure to be useful.
 
WOW!!! You guys are really getting into the details! I feel that when you get in this cal. anything 9mm and up is like comparing Ford to Chevy...not really that much differance unless you are shooting into gellitin or some controlled test. Just like knife steels 99.9% of folks won't be able to tell the differance between S30V,D2,440c,1095,A2 in day to day use. Same thing with the guy that gets that .40, 9mm, .45, 357(sig) or whatever in the heart/head, he's not going to be able to tell what it was eithor!!!!:D Even in cheap plinker rounds you are going do massive damage to anyone in any calaber even .22 will take your head off at close range or penatrate the heart. These rounds even tone down are plenty powerful for defence and quiet capable of killing anyone even plinker rounds...I sure as heak wouldn't want to take one anywhere on my body!:D
 
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