Outdoor Knife that last

[Boris74]

My reality is that this is still all just your opinion.

"just stating what I've experienced and why I prefer a hollow grind for chopping"

-Dude, that is an opinion based on your experience, sorry to break it to you. And since when was this thread about the preferred grind for chopping?

The original topic went where it went. The drift is where the topic came up.

Some grinds put on typical axes.

 

[stvpourciau]

So, you guys want this thread to be closed then?

 

[Codger_64]

Questions of use and abuse and maintenance aside, I can tell you from my experience. I bought a new 1095 carbon steel knife in the very early 1970's and used it afield more than 40 years before it was stolen and it never broke, chipped, tipped or failed in any way. Before it was stolen I compared it to a new knife exactly like it still new in the box. Other than the patina, it was nearly indistinguishable from the new one. It accompanied me on many week and two week long trips into National Wilderness areas, skinned, gutted and processed well over a hundred deer, many squirrels, raccoons, fish and waterfowl. I kept it sharp on an old fashioned stone in between uses. I kept it oiled and stored outside it's leather sheath. But I grew up with mentors who taught me and my brother how to use and care for knives.

Another vote here for you to get one of Ethan Becker's knives. Used and treated properly, it will stay sharp and serve you the rest of your life.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Hollow grind may chop better but it is much more fragile.
Much more risk of getting chips in your blade.
The experts at blade sports tend to use other grinds

 

[marcinek]

If you were around as many tough hardwoods with not a single birch for at least a half days drive away you'd understand why. One side is always what looks like a hollow grind to me, at least on the better well designed ones.

You take what I'm saying out of context. I'm saying I have observed heavy thick long blades chop better when equipped with a hollow grind. That is not an opinion.

Wow! Not only is everyone else's level of expertise inferior to yours, the places where everybody else lives has wimpy wood!

No wonder your observations are not opinion but indisputable fact!

 

[marcinek]

Maybe you can end the whole "chocolate vs vanilla" ice cream debate once and for all with one of your declarations of fact.

 

[Gaston444]

How about this "opinion" to support plain and obvious "facts":

www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthre...FBM-FBMLE-Bill-Buxton-field-test-knife-review

Randall Made 12-9, BUSSE FBM FBMLE, Bill Buxton, field test knife review

I bought a Randall 12-9 merely because another thread made curious how Randall Made Knives basically compare to a contemporary design. I used a Busse FBM LE for 6 years. It was a so so chopper. It was a little too thick with a steep edge that would not penetrate hard woods well, plus, it had a flat grind and would basically gall onto the tree when you did manage to get a deep cut in a softer wood. The steel was ok, would chip like any other high quality knife that hit a rock in the process of being used in the field. The blade material, marketed as INFI, relies on the steep bevel to hold its edge, if you take it down a bit to improve penetration, it goes dull like any other quality production knife. I used it for 6 years and chopped hundreds of small trees that grow out of control on my rural property. It was thick, hence strong. Finally sold it because it took too much energy to use and found it unproductive in the field. Next I used a Bill Buxton made of forged 52100, it was was much better, and held an edge like no other. I did not take Bill's advise and ordered an 8 instead of a 9 inch blade, and it was a bit too short.

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[/URL][/IMG]As a result of the other thread I decided to try a Randall 12-9 made of a very high quality Swedish tool steel. I used it to cut a few dozen trees. It was the most effective chopper of the three. The cuts were deep even in hard woods, the hollow grind did not gall, the edge held up better than the Busse, but chipped a bit easier when the edge came in contact with a rock than the Bill Buxton. I used in an abusive manor in an effort to cause a break at the tang, which I presume is approximately 1/2 X 1/4 X 4.75 inches as it appears to be based off a #14 CDT grind. It seems one would have to break this knife on purpose in order to effectuate failure. The Randall and the Bill Buxton are expensive, and expensively made. The Busse appeared to be mostly machine made, but high priced. My point is, Busse prices into its MSRP an abuse warrantee. The FBM LE in 2007 was a simple construction $375 knife that actually retailed for $697 sans a sheath. The price of the hand forged Randall and Buxton do not reflect a warrantee for abuse, so the buyer has to self insure the knife under certain circumstances. But, they are forged, and the advantage to a carbon steel blade seems to be the same as on the cranks of a mountain bicycle, forged units require less material to create the same amount of strength compared the those CNC'd or chucked, machined, and ground, making this production method perfect for a hollow grind blade. The cost of self insuring the knife for abuse versus having it packed into the retail price would be a consideration a purchaser would have to weigh relative to their own personal comfort level, either you pay upfront, or only if you break it.

A well written and convincing post... And my reply, with a hollow ground Jereboam vs BK9 as an example...:

I am not surprised... I never understood how thick edges, convexed or not (makes no diffence in my opinion), were supposed to perform better than thin ones, like those Randall usually puts on their big knives at 0.5 mm to 0.6 mm wide at the V-bevel's top. After watching my Chris Reeves 8.75" Jereboam slightly out-perform my 9.25" BK-9 (the CR with a slightly sub-optimal 1 mm wide edge bevel top), I never understood how hollow grinds were supposed to be "inferior" as chopping implements either, given that they tend to be heavier-bladed (since they typically have no distal taper, unlike most fully flat ground blades) and also have the potential to be thinner-edged, and that there seems to be little or no binding in wood...

On the contrary, the hollow grind's secondary grind line prevents "sticking", and hardly causes much "drag" in wood when this grind is placed two thirds or more up the blade's side...

Another, much unsung, advantage of thin-edged hollow ground choppers is that the top of the hollow, when striking hard in small diameter soft wood, actually greatly reduces vibration and shock to the hand. This is because it "decelerates" the blade gradually as the hollow grind widens in a curve (thus acting as a very effective "buffer", or "shock absorber", especially in the few early blows where the blade is fully "pinched" by wood), instead of stopping suddenly and harshly as the non-gradual deceleration of a flat grind. The difference is more noticeable the more the wood diameter becomes smaller from 4" down, and thus more within the reach of normal knife chopping use... This "soft" deceleration greatly reduces vibration and hand fatigue on multiple medium limbs (not so much on one really big one), even if the handle is full uncovered round metal, like the Chris Reeves 8.75" one-piece line, whose handle proved much more confortable for chopping -bare handed- than even that of the BK-9...

I also find that, on a forged Randall 440B blade, when using a very sharp bevel of 10° per side (even if as thin as 0.5 mm at the top) it is still strong enough to support heavy chopping on maple, and even some reasonable side wrenching loads on pressure-treated 2X4s, since it took heavy leveraged loads to cause even minor damage on my Model 14...: Two minuscule chips, and some very mild edge sideway deformations, both with no effect on performance... (Be warned straight edge portions are far more vulnerable to gradual side load chipping/bending than the edge's belly, so keep gradual side loads to the edge's forward belly, and there will be no damage at all, even with such an extremely thin edge all the way to the point...)

I really like the ergonomics of the Model 12's handle pictured by the OP, as most have much more unconventional (often thicker-looking) handles it seems...

The Model 12 used by the OP was in 0-1 Carbon steel: The edge-holding of the Randall would have been slightly better in stainless, as Randall's forged 440B has proved more resilient chopping concrete than even INFI (and 440C edge-holding has also proved superior to all others -at the time- in a very elaborate 1990s test on various materials, including two early CPMs and INFI).

It does appear that with Randall you do get superior performance: I just wish the blade finish, and grind symmetry, was a bit more in line with the price...: At least the edge grind is paralell and centered to the spine, but that is about it...

Gaston

The reason flat ground distal taper blades have proved (or so it seems) competition winners is that they are all way over 2" wide to compensate for the mass loss of distal taper, and they probably have to go through unrealistically large material thicknesses, so thinner blade ratios are favoured by the choice of medium: The thicker the material, the more the saber grind will prove a hindrance...

If you were to limit blades to a width under 1.6", thin-edged hollow grinds would absolutely demolish flat ground distal taper blades in chopping contests, even at equivalent edge thickness, and mind you a 1.6" wide blade is already a huge width to tot around...: This is the blade width of the oversized-looking Randall Model 12...

Look at the comment on the Busse above vs the Randall: The Randall had deep penetration even on very hard wood, while the Busse was too tiring to use to be productive: Yet the Busse is as heavy or heavier...

Look at another thin edged hollow grind like the SOG Super Bowie, at a mere 7.5": Depending how thin the edge actually is, the hollow grind allows it to chop superbly for its size, and many users have commented on this (this is unfortunately not true of Randall's own hollow ground Model 14s and 18s, because the blade stock is too thin at 3/16", instead of the actual 1/4" claimed: Another huge penalty is the large full-length swedge of 18 style blade designs, which robs even more blade mass). Meanwhile the San Mai III Trailmaster outperforms a Busse that is 10 ounces heavier, yet in most test I've seen, the Trailmaster is beaten by the non-distal taper BK-9, which is in turn matched or bested (in confort) by a shorter and quite a bit narrower-bladed Chris Reeves Jereboam...

If you limit the size of the blade profile to a "real" knife-sized package, say a blade 9.5" in length by 1.6" in width and 1/4" thick, there is nothing that will out perform a thin edged hollow grind at this size, or any size under.

If the shoulder of a hollow grind is two thirds or more up the blade, the usual complaints about this secondary grind "binding" usually become non-factors, except for delicate kitchen useage... It really is quite mystifying to me that the hollow grind has gained such a bad reputation for heavy outdoor uses, when it allows the edge to wear up and retain the same thinness, while most other knives tend to get thicker...

Gaston

 

[Boris74]

Wow! Not only is everyone else's level of expertise inferior to yours, the places where everybody else lives has wimpy wood!

No wonder your observations are not opinion but indisputable fact!

No, I'm not talking about anyone else. I'm telling you what works best for me and what kind of wood I encounter. I'm not asking you. When you take a saber and flat ground blade to the wood in my area and experience performance less than a hollow ground knife, there is absolutely nothing wrong with posting about a hollow ground knife doing better. For the technical reason why see Gaston444s post.

I am not big into icecream, but when I do get it I get the soft serve vanilla chocolate swirl. For me it's the perfect solution.

After some of the axe comments though I am suspect of some peoples replies now. How can you not know axes for different purposes have different grinds? the thought of taking my splitter to fell a tree hasn't even crossed my mind, same reason a flat or saber grind will never be considered for a knife expected to chop. I didn't learn that from reading posts online or buying a knife because it has a popular name. Just good ole knife in hand knife to wood experience.

Instead of telling me why I'm wrong, and I obviously am, you even said so, tell us what works best for you.

 

[jdk1]

Wow! Not only is everyone else's level of expertise inferior to yours, the places where everybody else lives has wimpy wood!

"Girly wood" is what Hans and Frans would call it

 

[marcinek]

Instead of telling me why I'm wrong, and I obviously am, you even said so, tell us what works best for you.

I stated my opinion back in post #14. No doubt you missed it. Why read other peoples' posts when they are from inexperienced dilettantes who have never put in an honest days work with their knives?

 

[craytab]

How about this "opinion" to support plain and obvious "facts":

www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthre...FBM-FBMLE-Bill-Buxton-field-test-knife-review

You clearly are still not getting this. And quoting some guy who has no reputation here with only 9 posts isn't going to prove your experiences are obvious facts like you claim, Posting walls of text that no one is going to read also doesn't make your opinion a fact either.

At this point, I don't even know what you are arguing for or against. What I do know is that opinion is not fact. And with that in mind you can go ahead and get others to drink your cool-aid. I'm done here.

 

[LostViking]

Same knife in both pics lostviking?

Yes sir, Fallkniven S-1 Forest Knife

 

[Icculus]

How sad is it that the last two pages of nonsense actually make me wish the OP would come back to this thread and "get it back on track". That conversation was far more entertaining.

 

[LostViking]

Yes this thread could certainly use some lightening up.

In a similar heated debate over carbon or Stainless on another forum. I offered this up as a way to lighten up the mood a bit.

But also to illustrate there really is no one right answer. That's the cool thing about the woods. There are many right ways to do things.

People who spend time in the woods understand this.

After watching many folks achieve their desired results with different approaches and different gear. I like seeing what other people use and their methods. Some I adopt, some I don't. What I like most about the woods is there doesn't seem to be the need for this sensless bickering.

So in hopes of giving folks a chuckle, while still providing some solid feedback. Without further ado, I give you the 6S System.

Enjoy,

Disclaimer:
There is no sense reading beyond this point. Anyone who would take a Stainless Steel knife into the woods is most certainly a duffer. His advice will likely get you killed if followed. Please read and sign the release at the bottom before continuing.

Well, now that we have the legal BS out of the way. Here are a few shots of the S-1, I promised to deliver last week. These shots were taken this morning prior to coffee and breakfast. Since I needed a fire anyway. I figured, why not make use of the two birds, one stone, thing.


Here it is. I wasn't going to share this. The Government is already overhead with the black unmarked choppers and real Certified Survival Instructors have put a bounty on my head. But here goes.


This is my "Super Secret Stainless Steel Survival System" Code Name 6S. You didn't hear that from me.


Most of the items contained in the 6S kit are only issued to Tier 1 SOF, so you may have trouble obtaining them.


Second Disclaimer:
This is not an actual survival situation. Unless you consider no coffee and no breakfast a survival situation. Personally, I do. This was done in my back yard. Which in truth, is more wilderness than some will ever see.


For demonstration purposes. I grabbed one round piece of wood off the pile to the right.


Here is the 6S Kit, you have all been sworn to secrecy at this point. Because if this leaks out. Well, let's just say heads will roll.

It consists of 1-Fallkniven S-1 Forest Knife. A green pouch so I can look tactical. Which incidentally fits on the sheath quite nicely. And some super secret Military Fiberous Blasting/Incendiary material. I don't remember what they stand for, but the initials are T.W.I.N.E. seriously bad stuff.



A quick shot of the knife out of the sheath,


Well no supplied kit is ever enough for a real survival situation. So a little scavenging netted me some Birch Bark. Or as I call it "Natures Napalm" It even burns when wet.


Next onto that piece of wood. I tried to baton my knife through it. All the while wondering if that laminated VG-10 would even make it through without disintegrating.

But the wood is too big, I can't hit the end of my knife with the baton. I don't have a bigger knife. I am so screwed. I knew I should have bought that Nuclear Reactive Battle Princess.


Wait, over the years, I have had the luxury of working with many Instructors.
But the words of my first Survival Instructor leaped into my mind. I remembered when I was two years old and almost choked to death on a piece of steak. Mom, my first and probably best instructor. Said, take smaller bites stupid, and you won't die.

Ma knew a lot more than she let on. She was UDT, (Under-Appreciated Domestic Trainer) I took smaller bites, maybe, I really don't need that 37" chopper.



I worked my way around the wood. Knowing I was going to need some smaller pieces anyway.



Soon enough, I could just take it down the middle,


I batoned some of them down to smaller diameters for different purposes. Then made a quick feather stick. This is an integral part of the System.



Here is a shot of the entire system assembled, and about to be deployed.



One artsy shot just because I can,



OK, we have reached the meat and potatoes part of the system.


I placed two dry pieces of wood on the ground. So the fledgling fire wouldn't have to fight the ground moisture in its early stages.

Then I added the feather stick, some of the Birch Bark, and the Spec Ops T.W.I.N.E. I cut it to about two inches unraveled the three strands, and fluffed them up. You can see it in the picture just right of center.



To that I added some of the smallest pieces of batoned wood from the log. And now we are ready to catch a spark,



My camera shut off, while I was striking my steel. So I didn't get the tiny flame I was hoping for. Here is how it goes, spark hits T.W.I.N.E., it bursts into flames, igniting the feather stick, which itself bursts into flames, igniting the Birch Bark. And it just takes off from there. This is what it looked like by the time I got my camera on and focused.



Add some of the larger pieces once things get going. And you've got fire. Note this wasn't overly seasoned, but it wasn't green either.




A quick picture of the knife and the baton, to prove they were actually there.



No pictures of today's breakfast, but a quick swipe up the arm says the S-1 is still sharp,



For those who are curious breakfast usually looks something like this,



Folks, don't let yourselves get pigeoned holed into one side or the other. There are quality blades on both sides of the debate. And don't put too much emphasis on the destruction tests. Just go out and use your knives.

My Fallkniven S-1 makes fires in this fashion 3-6 times a week. All I have done to keep it hair popping sharp is strop it on a double sided strop with green and black compound.

Well that's all she wrote. I have to go wash and oil my knife before it starts to rust.

Oh wait?

Ha, I crack myself up!

 

[Boris74]

You clearly are still not getting this. And quoting some guy who has no reputation here with only 9 posts isn't going to prove your experiences are obvious facts like you claim, Posting walls of text that no one is going to read also doesn't make your opinion a fact either.

At this point, I don't even know what you are arguing for or against. What I do know is that opinion is not fact. And with that in mind you can go ahead and get others to drink your cool-aid. I'm done here.

So now people who never post online with no cyber cred know exactly nothing about what works, so how could someone with 9 posts know anything. That sounds like something someone would say who seen a YouTube video and thought it would be cool to get into knives because of it and started at zero knowledge with post number one would say.

Here is what I see happening. Someone gets a thick long heavy flat or saber ground blade and try to do some fine work an agile blade does easily. They realize it sucks pretty bad at them tasks but man, it chops decent. So that's all it gets used for. Somewhere along the line of posts and people repeating things they've never done it becomes true. Wait a second, it is true! Them heavy thick saber and flat grind blades do suck at the finer work, but they do chop decent. So how could anything be better? Well I have a long thick saber ground knife and it is horrible at finer details. I have a slightly shorter just as heavy hollow ground blade that weighs the same and it chops much better, in fact it chops almost as good as the twice the weight semi hollow ground SCHF37 I got.

You clearly aren't getting some people get better chopping results from a hollow grind. Just because other grinds are decent at it and suck for other tasks don't mean that grinds best suited task will be better than other grinds for chopping.

I haven't seen any supporting evidence of what the anti hollow grinders are saying. All I see is you're wrong, you don't get it, I'm right, listen to me. Even when people do try to give supporting evidence all it does is help the hollow grind show it's better for chopping. No one has came along to support their axe comments yet. I want to see them explain why the axes I've shown are better suited for chopping than axes ground for splitting. Maybe if one of the guys trying to prove a point can take an 8lb splitting maul and a 2ld Michigan double bit axe to two similarly sized trees and time how long it takes to fell them. You'll get it then.

 

[Icculus]

Awesome post LostViking.

 

[craytab]

Re: Boris. More walls of text that I ain't gonna read.

Those were awesome photos LostViking. Thanks.

 

[Lonewolf01]

Who would have thought that a thinner primary grind and edge would have better penetration and cutting ability than a thicker one.

 

[Codger_64]

Who would have thought that a thinner primary grind and edge would have better penetration and cutting ability than a thicker one.

The guy who broke knife after knife after...

 

[rpn]

Yes sir, Fallkniven S-1 Forest Knife

Thank you! The artsy photo of yours looks like it has more tip and sweep than I thought the S1 had. Great pic! Had a lot of knives pass through my hands, but never a fallkniven. Looks appealing!

How about the few folks who want a debate on grinds and who is smarter start their own thread?