Overpriced knives in terms of materials, quality & service

[Landshark99]

^ that's generally true, but oversimplified to the point of distortion. There's a real difference between luxury, collector, and necessity products and the market systems they create.

How so, whether the goods fall in any of those areas the same rules would apply, whether it is McDonald's or the French Laundry, a Ferrari or Camry, Four Seasons or Motel 6, they all are dependent on market forces.

 

[Gaston444]

I hate to say it, but you are digging yourself into a hole. The fixed blade arena is not that difficult. They are simple and much easier to diagnose and understand compared to a folder. And as far as thick edges go, we reprofile and sharpen them until they do cut very well.

If that's so how come no one ever does it? Changing the edge thickness requires a full blade re-finishing: I do pay a pro to do this, and if the knife is not flat ground he won't do it: Trouble is, hollow grinds give the edge a reserve of wear that doesn't change the edge thickness as it wears. All flat grinds grow duller as they wear upwards...

And if sharpness was so common, how come a ridiculous 20 degrees per side is considered an acceptable standard? That's a 40 degree wedge blundering its way through...

Where did fixed blades even enter this convo?

That's a good one: Why would anyone assume they were excluded from General Discussion?

Gaston

 

[Gaston444]

If you really have a need to chop that many cinder blocks, I would suggest buying a cold chisel and a small sledge hammer. As for overpriced, the most expensive model in the Randall Model 12 line, the Smithsonian, has a catalog price of $650, yet you paid $950? For $950, you could get two choppers made from CPM3V from a custom maker and maybe even have some money left over. I am a longtime Randall fan, but I also realize that they use "cheap" steel and old productions methods (by their on admission) and their pricing is driving primarily by their collectibility. They may be more unused Randalls in existence than any other knife brand.

Not the fault of Randall...

Cinder blocks are the thing Busse testers do: I could not care less about that nonsense myself, I am just amused that a thin-edged Model 14 ended up doing better with 440B than Busse INFI did in their very own "Busse-style" testing medium... Ah but he "Sasquatch" was thin edged as well, which was objected to... So INFI is good when it is chisel thick I guess...

I've seen at least one test where CPM3V tested way poorer than 440C, particularly on manila rope... And that was with identical purpose-built test mules for the test, not different knives from different makers... For me, Randall's 440B proved superior in comparison to everything I have tried while chopping wood, and better than most 440 in other knives... Rust resistance on CPM3V is also low if I am not mistaken... I have tried RJ Martin's S30V against Randall's 440B, equal edge angles, and S30V came out a close second... Not hugely impressed...

As to the catalog price of the Model 12, why are you even considering that? Catalogue price for Randalls is a four- five year wait... If you can find a 14 grind Model 12 available NOW for $650, please do show the link, I am intensely curious... Only 14 grinds mind you: I have no interest in their ugly curved clips...

As far as custom makers making better stuff than Randall, I'm sure they do exist, but very few of them are a known value... If they are a known value, the price will be higher than $450, and waiting time can be significant... In addition, how many custom makers can forge stainless? How many will consistently offer a given edge thickness of 0.020"? How many do hollow grinds? How many, for $450, will have leather sheaths that are even in the same league of simplicity and elegance?

I look and look for 9"-10" blades, and most custom knives I see offer flat-ground blades, traditional ornery handles devoid of checkering or finger grooves, ornery guards and decorated sheaths that are polar opposites to the simplicity I enjoy... Prices are not exactly low when ordering from dealers...

I can scroll for hours Arizona Custom Knives, or Nordic Knives, for 10" plus blades, and not see a single custom knife that combines thin-edged hollow grinds, chopping ability and a sharp straight-clipped point: Many intended to be choppers look a lot like Busse... I also don't like full tangs, as they are not balanced right and waste weight. Just not my thing...

Finally, and really the number one reason I am not interested in Customs: How many custom makers have a stock of finished knives ready to ship right now? Not many... Randall dealers do offer this. You pay a high price because they waited for you: A perfectly fair trade by me...

Gaston

 

[jdm61]

Most custom makers, myself included, choose NOT to forge stainless. To be honest, forging is only good for fun or to make damascus. The odds that your 440B Randall performs BETTER because it is forged is nonexistent. To the contrary, it is more likely to be messed up in some manner. 440B is basically a fairly tough, inexpensive mass market stainless steel. it might have been a "good" choice in the 1960's for a tough knife, but not now. the idea that it would have better edge retention at 55-56 Rc than some other steels, PROPERLY heat treated CPM 3V at 60 included, is just silly.

Not the fault of Randall...

Cinder blocks are the thing Busse testers do: I could not care less about that nonsense myself, I am just amused that a thin-edged Model 14 ended up doing better with 440B than Busse INFI did in their very own "Busse-style" testing medium... Ah but he "Sasquatch" was thin edged as well, which was objected to... So INFI is good when it is chisel thick I guess...

I've seen at least one test where CPM3V tested way poorer than 440C, particularly on manila rope... And that was with identical purpose-built test mules for the test, not different knives from different makers... For me, Randall's 440B proved superior in comparison to everything I have tried while chopping wood, and better than most 440 in other knives... Rust resistance on CPM3V is also low if I am not mistaken... I have tried RJ Martin's S30V against Randall's 440B, equal edge angles, and S30V came out a close second... Not hugely impressed...

As to the catalog price of the Model 12, why are you even considering that? Catalogue price for Randalls is a four- five year wait... If you can find a 14 grind Model 12 available NOW for $650, please do show the link, I am intensely curious... Only 14 grinds mind you: I have no interest in their ugly curved clips...

As far as custom makers making better stuff than Randall, I'm sure they do exist, but very few of them are a known value... If they are a known value, the price will be higher than $450, and waiting time can be significant... In addition, how many custom makers can forge stainless? How many will consistently offer a given edge thickness of 0.020"? How many do hollow grinds? How many, for $450, will have leather sheaths that are even in the same league of simplicity and elegance?

I look and look for 9"-10" blades, and most custom knives I see offer flat-ground blades, traditional ornery handles devoid of checkering or finger grooves, ornery guards and decorated sheaths that are polar opposites to the simplicity I enjoy... Prices are not exactly low when ordering from dealers...

I can scroll for hours Arizona Custom Knives, or Nordic Knives, for 10" plus blades, and not see a single custom knife that combines thin-edged hollow grinds, chopping ability and a sharp straight-clipped point: Many intended to be choppers look a lot like Busse... I also don't like full tangs, as they are not balanced right and waste weight. Just not my thing...

Finally, and really the number one reason I am not interested in Customs: How many custom makers have a stock of finished knives ready to ship right now? Not many... Randall dealers do offer this. You pay a high price because they waited for you: A perfectly fair trade by me...

Gaston

 

[FA1BladeGuy]

L

Funny you should say this. I've been a jeweler for 20 years. When I first started I always thought Rolex were the premier timepiece. After many years I now realize they are very over rated....not to say that they are not fine, as they are incredible, but they are easily outclassed by so many other watch makers. Granted their prices are more affordable than many others and an excellent choice, but the high end Rolex is a low to mid grade Patek Phillipe. And Rolex has been using the same technology and designs for decades. Basically the timepiece world has the same issues of this "overpriced" topic that knives do. Hell its common knowledge that a Quartz timex is more accurate than a fine mechanical. It's all what the consumer thinks is worth the price.

I appreciate your post sir because it touches on two of my favorite watch makers. I wear a Rolex 114270 Explorer all the time. Would a Patek Philippe Nautilus keep better time, maybe? But I still name it as my dream SS sports watch. I think Rolex occupies the same position as a Chris Reeve Sebenza does. They're well regarded but to many they are an overpriced version of what one could get for less.

 

[bld522]

Mostly looking at production and mid tech knives.

Of course, these are somewhat subjective opinions. No malice intended.

For me Brous Blades, Medford, Rockstead, Strider, Emerson, Defiant7, MicroTech, Benchmade Gold Class, Pohl Force, Extrema Ratio, etc. It doesn't mean all their models are overpriced but mostly yes.

Some others possibly heading to the overpriced realm or already there: Andre de Villiers, Ferrum Forge, Olamic, Reate, etc.

I thought Shirogorov were overpriced until prices on them tumbled this year to something more realistic.

I don't think Chris Reeve and Hinderer are overpriced.

So getting back to the topic, Aluminum-handled folders with D2 blades from one of the manufacturers you mentioned are currently available from a well-respected online retailer for a base price of $199.00 to a high of $239.00. They're nice folders, but there isn't anything particularly spectacular or unique about them. They're just your basic bearing flipper with a liner lock and a 3.5" blade. And the price I quoted isn't MSRP. It's their selling price. Now to me, that's overpriced. So my question is, who would spend that much money for an aluminum-handled, D2, bearing flipper with a liner lock and why?

 

[RamZar]

So getting back to the topic, Aluminum-handled folders with D2 blades from one of the manufacturers you mentioned are currently available from a well-respected online retailer for a base price of $199.00 to a high of $239.00. They're nice folders, but there isn't anything particularly spectacular about them. They're just your basic bearing flipper with a liner lock and a 3.5" blade. And the price I quoted isn't MSRP. It's their selling price. Now to me, that's overpriced. So my question is, who would spend that much money for an aluminum-handled, D2 folder and why?

Personally, the epitome of overpriced are Brous and Medford.

I think you're referring to the new KSF exclusive Brous Bionic XL with a 3.5" D2 blade, aluminum handle and liner lock. Very ordinary, if you ask me, going for a ridiculous $199-$239.

There's also the Brous Sniper with aluminum handle, liner lock and 3.75" D2 blade going for $169-$209.

 

[bld522]

Well I wasn't going to name names, but now that you mention it . . .

Clearly, Derrick has enough faith in those Brous Bionics to have ordered an exclusive run of them and my guess is he'll sell them all . . . which leads me back to my question. Who would buy those knives for those kinds of prices and why? On a good day, they appear to be maybe $125-$135 knives. But $200-plus??? I don't get it. What am I missing?

 

[RamZar]

Well I wasn't going to name names, but now that you mention it . . .

Clearly, Derrick has enough faith in those Brous Bionics to have ordered an exclusive run of them. And my guess is he'll sell them all, which leads me back to my question. Who would buy those knives for those kinds of prices and why?

I have a Bionic 2.0 which was $169. Same aluminum handle, liner lock and 3" D2 blade. Although I think it's overpriced it appealed to me due to its size, light weight (2.5 ounces), good flipper action and aesthetics. Brous Bionic 2.0 goes for $159-$189.

These Bionic 2.0 should sell for under $100. Kershaw Camber which is made in the U.S. with aluminum handle, 3" S30V blade and liner lock goes for about $70-$80.

 

[somber]

You're comparing a large, multi-national company to a small knife manufacturer and saying that the pricing should be equal?

Give me a break...

 

[RamZar]

You're comparing a large, multi-national company to a small knife manufacturer and saying that the pricing should be equal?

Give me a break...

So, just because Brous is a smaller company than Kershaw it should charge twice as much...

LionSteel, which is a small company, has the aluminum integral frame SR-1 going for $200. That's a lot more complex manufacturing than a liner lock with two aluminum scales.

U.S. made Hogue EX-01 aluminum with 3.5" 154CM blade is $170.

 

[Zero_Time]

So, just because Brous is a smaller company than Kershaw it should charge twice as much...

LionSteel, which is a small company, has the aluminum integral frame SR-1 going for $200. That's a lot more complex manufacturing than a liner lock with two aluminum scales.

Small firms don't have the volume to produce cheap goods. Period. One of my favorite sandwich places sells sandwiches for $20. They're literally twice as large as a LARGE sandwich- but they can't afford the opportunity costs that selling sandwiches for $10 would cost.

That's a long way of saying, Brous can't keep it's doors open, no matter what style lock or whatever, for a cheaper price. That's a problem for most artisanal places.

Zero

 

[bld522]

Small firms don't have the volume to produce cheap goods. Period. One of my favorite sandwich places sells sandwiches for $20. They're literally twice as large as a LARGE sandwich- but they can't afford the opportunity costs that selling sandwiches for $10 would cost.

That's a long way of saying, Brous can't keep it's doors open, no matter what style lock or whatever, for a cheaper price. That's a problem for most artisanal places.

Zero

Yep. The difficulty arises when the "cheap" goods are as well made and constructed of better materials than the goods being produced in the artisinal places.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

I wouldn't call Lionsteel a small company. They are able to do manufacturing for many brands including their own. I'm not 100% sure, but I would guess they have more employees than, say CRK. Where Brous is essentially Jason & Keena.

And yes I do feel a lot of Brous' offerings are overpriced for the materials used. Considering the overhead I can understand the markup to an extent, but once you get to ~$300 I expect better.

 

[bld522]

Once I get to $200 I expect better. And for $200, better is real easy for me to find . . . better handles than aluminum, better steel than D2, and better designs to my eye as well.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

Once I get to $200 I expect better. And for $200, better is real easy for me to find . . . better handles than aluminum, better steel than D2, and better designs as well.

No argument here on cost vs materials, but I find a lot of Brous designs to be appealing (i.e. Reloader, SSF, Stryfe, Sinner, Division)

Also a "Made In USA" stamp is almost a guarantee to jack up the price on labor differences alone. So IMO a $200 Kizer, if made here would likely cost over $300

 

[B.F.U]

Personally, the epitome of overpriced are Brous and Medford.

I think you're referring to the new KSF exclusive Brous Bionic XL with a 3.5" D2 blade, aluminum handle and liner lock. Very ordinary, if you ask me, going for a ridiculous $199-$239.

There's also the Brous Sniper with aluminum handle, liner lock and 3.75" D2 blade going for $169-$209.

Wish I hadn't read this post. I traded into a Bionic before Brous prices skyrocketed, and really the only thing I didn't like was it was too small and sharp in hand. That Bionic XL looks nice, but not $200 nice. The Sniper (which I also didn't know about) at $170? That's tempting. Looks like a super easy to carry knife with nice simple, uncramped ergonomics.

 

[RamZar]

I wouldn't call Lionsteel a small company. They are able to do manufacturing for many brands including their own. I'm not 100% sure, but I would guess they have more employees than, say CRK. Where Brous is essentially Jason & Keena.

And yes I do feel a lot of Brous' offerings are overpriced for the materials used. Considering the overhead I can understand the markup to an extent, but once you get to ~$300 I expect better.

LionSteel is a small company with about 20 employees. It manufactures smal batches for many companies. CRK is about the same size.

Brous Blades is not just Jason and Keena. They subcontract a lot. Also, I'm not sure if everything is made in U.S.

 

[bld522]

Wish I hadn't read this post. I traded into a Bionic before Brous prices skyrocketed, and really the only thing I didn't like was it was too small and sharp in hand. That Bionic XL looks nice, but not $200 nice. The Sniper (which I also didn't know about) at $170? That's tempting. Looks like a super easy to carry knife with nice simple, uncramped ergonomics.

Agreed. But for that kind of money, at least give me Ti handles.

 

[somber]

LionSteel is a small company with about 20 employees. It manufactures smal batches for many companies. CRK is about the same size.

Brous Blades is not just Jason and Keena. They subcontract a lot. Also, I'm not sure if everything is made in U.S.

"I think" you should at least have some proof before making slanderous comments and not just speculations. Lots of conjecture with not much substantiation .