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Para 2 pivot bushing??? ...not sure about it.
- Thread starter archieblue
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I can tighten my para 2 all the way down, and it still has 0 friction and 0 blade play. Correct me if i am wrong, but spyderco's bushing does the same thing as CRK, but is a cheaper version and might not last as long with wear.
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Actually, you are wrong. It is designed differently, works differently, and is made to different tolerances.
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I didn't say they were designed the same, actually I know they aren't. More specifically my question is this, Do the titanium handles tighten down on the bushing and not the tang or what?Actually, you are wrong. It is designed differently, works differently, and is made to different tolerances.
I am asking because I do not own a sebenza.
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I didn't say they were designed the same, actually I know they aren't. More specifically my question is this, Do the titanium handles tighten down on the bushing and not the tang or what?
I am asking because I do not own a sebenza.
The "bushing" on a Sebenza rides on a separate pivot pin and the blade rotates around the bushing. So there are 2 contact points between the pin and the blade. The photos on the CRK site has a good photo of exactly how it works.
http://www.chrisreeve.com/sebenzaclean.htm
The bushing and pivot pin are one single piece on the Spydies. It's directly screwed against the liners while the blade rotates around it. So there is 1 contact point between the "bushing" and the blade. And the shoulder on the pivot pin prevents the liners/scales from being too tight.
The difference is tolerances is apparent where almost every Sebenza is buttery smooth with practically no side play regardless of how tight the pivot pin is. The looser (relatively) tolerances on the Spydies can result in a bit of side play while others are smooth and tight. I have yet to find an unmodified Manix 2 that will stiffen up by over-tightening the pivot screws. But a few Para 2s appears to over-tighten if the stop pin screws are tightened as well. I think messing with both these screws can create an angled low spot that can put sideways pressure on the blade tang.
I have my Para 2s adjusted to my satisfaction and my "user" Manix 2s have modified pivot bushings to allow for tighter adjustment. It does defeat the "fool proofing" built into the design and nullifies the warranty on these 2 knives but I can't stand side play. Loctite prevents things from going out of adjustment.
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Blue Locktite is good stuff but the Teflon tape is really difficult to use in that application. It is designed to prevent leaks in pipe threads and is quite slick. If you try using it on large standard threads it doesn't hold and often you'll end up over torquing due to the lubed threads. If you use it in very small applications like this it seems I, at least, end up with a pile of it above the female threads and none in the threads and no locking.
Amazingly there still seems to be no real consensus on whether the scales clamp down on moving parts and should be adjusted a la cheap folder or clamp down on a non moving bushing like CRK....
Edit: Good explanation dsmegst; sounds like a tie breaker to me. The Sebenza explanation I understand, the Para 2 not so much. Can't quite picture the friction point on some if overtightened. Do the scales go out of parallel causing the bushing to bind? Did you modify the Mannix bushings by using shorter ones and allowing the washers to ride between scale and tang?
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On the Manix 2s, I ground the shoulders down a tiny bit (1 or 2 thousands of an inch) to make things tighter. My goal was to get it to a point where a fully tightened down pivot would prevent a free swinging blade while a tiny bit of loosening would give me a smooth and easy opening. It's easy to find the sweet spot and the loctite prevents any change.
On the Para 2s, I didn't need to grind anything. For some reason, tightening down the stop pin screws along with readjusting the pivot screws let me dial out all side play. My G-10 Para 2 was very loose from the factory. And no matter how tight I cranked down on the pivot screws alone, it would always be too loose. Tightening the stop pin screw changed all that. And the only difference I can see between the M2 and the Para2 is the use of a stop pin on the Para 2.
I can only assume it's changing the angles of the liners and therefore the bushings enough to tighten it. I haven't experimented with this assumption though.
It just works for me.I understand; thanks. I suppose possibly the stop pin keeps the scales in parallel. As precise as the CRK knives have to be, it's a wonder they don't behave differently at different temperatures. I've noticed that phenomena in cheap folders in which I've replaced Teflon washers with bronze and used them outside in the wet and cold after being carefully adjusted inside. Obviously no real problem as they still work and once brought to the carefully regulated pocket temp they go back to normal. Maybe why they are called pocket knives......
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I didn't say they were designed the same, actually I know they aren't. More specifically my question is this, Do the titanium handles tighten down on the bushing and not the tang or what?
I am asking because I do not own a sebenza.
Dsmegst got me off the hook with a better explanation that I think I could have managed.
On a practical note, some of M2s and P2s will cinch up just like yours, but others will clamp the blade if fully tightened, and I have read posts here and at SF about M2s and P2s with pivots that couldn't be tightened enough to eliminate sideplay. I'm definitely not criticizing either the design or workmanship in these knives - there's a reason that the Sebenza is as expensive as it is.Give me a para 2 without the bushing pivot, and it gets closer to perfection then imo. Tightening my para 2 pivot bushings to the max still would not get rid of quite a bit of side to side play. IMO, that was unacceptable, so the para 2 had to go. I hope the Military 2 doesn't have the bushing pivot, also hoping the Military 2 has some larger handle screws and pillars as well. :thumbup:
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Oh yeh! I would have gotten one or two when they became available, if they came without the bushing pivot.
I just received my EDCF Manix 2 and I can over-tighten it if I choose to. This specimen has a just about perfect bushing; I've found a nice sweet spot with extremely smooth action and no blade play. My regular production Manix 2, however, has significant side to side play even when the screws are completely tightened.
I got two para 2 -one black handle /regular blade and one digicam /black blade and both have very little side to side play .I was very dissapointed to find that and I'm thinking of ways to eliminate that blade play .One thing I might do is sand just a little the bushing so that the washers on both sides can touch both the blade tang and the liners . Does anybody think this would help eliminate blade play .It will be great if somebody who has dissasembled they para 2 could post pis of the bushing and the washers .
Lenny
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Yeah, I came home and tried that. I'm eating my words.
I have a Para2 on the way, but I've had my eye on the CRK Seb. The big difference is the price with the Seb costing nearly 3x the price. Does anyone own both and do they still prefer to carry the Seb or Para 2.
How can this be of any help -there is no up and down play .Could you explain ?
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I have knives that cost 4, 5 times what a Para 2 costs. But I still perfer to carry the Para 2. The latest ergonomics from Spyderco wins over anything else. My big and small Sebenzas are great knifes but they are relatively heavy, the handle lacks good traction, scratches easily, and the blade is heat treated softer.
All these factors make the Para 2 the better user for me.
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I did this also and it helped a great deal. My theory is that tightening the stop pin skews the liners a tiny bit and the extra pressure from the "low spot" is enough to tighten up the play. We're talking about 1 or 2 thousands of an inch here. A tiny change is all that's required. :thumbup:
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It could slightly compress the liners.
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How confident are you that you'll be able to keep the relevant surfaces parallel and perpendicular? How confident are you that you won't take too much material off the bushing?