Perfect survival gun?

runningboar

runningboar

Joined
May 27, 2006
Messages
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I have been shooting and hunting with muzzleloading rifles for over 20 years but have never fooled with a shotgun. About a month ago I was in one of the local pawn shops and they had a Thompson Center New Englander 12 bore single barrel in kinda rough shape and were asking 125 dollars, I asked if they would take a 100 and the deal was struck.

I have been on vacation this past week and have been working up loads for this gun and I have to say I am impressed. The gun is choked IC and with 80grs of FFG, a thin overpowder wad with a lubricated felt cushion wad, 1 1/8 oz #6 shot and a thin overshot wad I am getting very good, very even, modified to light modified patterns at 30 yards. With the same exact load except with a .715 round ball I am getting clover leafs at 25 yds, and about 3" at 50, plenty good for thick brush hogs and deer. I haven't experimented with buckshot but that is next on the list.

I am now thinking that a perfect survival game gun would be a 20 bore flintlock. Suitable for any game, and if push came to shove 10 pounds of powder and a 100 of shot would last a long, LONG time. True, not as convenient as modern cartridge arms but in my mind more versatile and easier to feed.

Anyone have any thoughts, maybe my wife is right and I have finally gone all the way off the deep end. :D
 
Anyone have any thoughts, maybe my wife is right and I have finally gone all the way off the deep end. :D
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Whatever sparks your Frizzen:D
 
How do you keep your powder dry during downpours and foarding streams and rivers, and when your powder gets wet how do you dry it out.
 
I carry my powder in a modern plastic flask, if you are asking about bulk I would say a modern military ammo can would work great. The Lewis and Clark expedition used lead casks that they melted down for shot when they were empty. Also the traditional way to carry powder is in a powder horn made from a cows horn which are extremely waterproof. I have hunted in wet conditions and as long as you are careful it is no problem, I have not had a misfire in a long time. Chris
 
I have and enjoy two muzzle loaders. They are fun to shoot, and hunt with. All that being said, if I were in a survival situation, I would be much happier with my modern, cartridge fed, nearly rustproof, rapid fire pistols and rifles. I have a couple of thousand rounds loaded for each right now, thirty or so pounds of powder, a lead pot, moulds, ten thousand or so primers, lots of brass...you get the idea. I won't be hurting for ammo any time soon. If your point is that you can make powder for BP arms under primitive conditions, yes that is true then you can load that black powder into brass behind a cast bullet, rack the slide/bolt for every shot by hand if you have to, and still shoot much faster than a muzzle loader. Mercury fulminate can be made under primitive conditions also. I don't know about primer cups though......though I bet you could come up with something.
 
I guess if I had to sum up to a point it would be that my BP shotgun is much more effective than most people, even myself, gave it credit for. You mentioned the fact about shooting much faster than a muzzleloader, why would you want to shoot fast. Everyone bare in mind I am not in any way, shape, form, or fashion talking about a battle rifle, but strictly a game gun, that is easy to load with no special equipment, easy to maintain, and effective on game.

I know I am being a bit romantic and that there is a reason that cartridge arms replaced muzzle loading arms. That doesn't change the fact that I can carry a lot more assorted loads loose for both big and small game than I can loaded cartridges for say a 12 gauge remington 870. Also if I carry a spare lock, my gun is nearly indestructable, with very few moving parts.

I also reload modern cartridges and have many modern firearms but I sure enjoy taking a step back, moving a bit slower and putting meat on the table with my charcoal burners. :thumbup: Chris
 
Just another .02 for the cup but I have seen a firearm I could live out with for a long time. It was a Remington rolling block with a laminated buttstuck made from a cast off production rifle. All metal was fit along with a new hammer,extractor,tigger, pins/screws(all in a recess under the buttplate)- then hard chrome plated. Cartridge was 45-110-- would take 45-70 cases as well. It shot everything from 45 round balls at rabbit/squirrel charges to 500 gr hard cast. Black powder or moderate smokeless(factory 45-70) loads. Very few parts- NO small screws or springs. Wore irons and blocks for weaver rings. I couldn't fault it and am looking toward building my own.
I also have a .62 Indian Trade smoothbore flint that I love as well :)

Bill
 
OK, it is the perfect survival gun, if:

-it does what you want, and
-you are pleased with it.
 
runningboar said:
That doesn't change the fact that I can carry a lot more assorted loads loose for both big and small game than I can loaded cartridges for say a 12 gauge remington 870.
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I don't really have anything to say about your choice that you don't already know. But I have seen this line of reasoning many times in regards to muzzle loaders- you can make light or or heavy charges every time you load. But my problem with that is, how do you know whether the next thing to jump out will be a deer or a rabbit when you're hungry? What if you're loaded with a light charge of shot for quail when a fat doe presents herself at 75 yards? At least with a modern gun you can quickly slip in a different and more appropriate shell.

It seems to me that if you're tramping around in country thick with big game, you'll end up always carrying the gun loaded for big game in case of targets of opportunity, thereby negating this arguement. 'Course, a deer slug will kill a rabbit dead, too. :)
 
In this case, to me, the description "perfect survival gun" most closely fits a survival situation that involves living off the land in a homesteading situation. A gun like this is relatively low-tech.... so individuals are more likely to understand it and maybe be able to repair it (and perhaps make powder for it). It would be great thing to have with you while working a trapline in case something big stumbles across your path, or wants to eat you.

In my situation, I would probably choose a .22 of some sort. I figure that if I have to buy any reloading component at all, then I may as well buy and store hundreds of rounds of .22 ammo. Any .22 would work, but I would select a strong one. Currently I feel quite a bit of appreciation for a Gervarm semi-automatic .22 that I have. It fires from an open breech position, and instead of having a firing pin mechanism, it simply has a ruddy great chisel edge on the bolt that leaves a huge dent right across the cartridge case and strikes the rim in two places simultaneously. It does not have an extractor because the cases are blown out as the gun fires. I have used it to fire many rounds of a certain brand of ammo that I have which, while very accurate and reliable, does not seem to extract well from some guns...perhaps because of the softness of the brass or the shape of the forward part of the rim. While I definitely don't recommend a .22 for larger game, I have bagged a number of goats and pigs with a .22 using subsonic ammunition. You can store and carry a large number of .22 cartridges compared to other ammo.

But black powder is definitely a good option for hunting. Another "survival" situation it would be good for is the one where modern guns and ammo are outlawed, unavailable, or restricted...and I think a few of our brothers and sisters around the world could already be in a situation like this. It is not impossible for a reasonably skilled person to make a black powder weapon, and it is comforting to think that if one day my country goes the way of some other countries, I could call on my trade skills and maybe put some sort of black powder gun together. I have actually been toying with the idea of using electrical ignition for a gun like this. Instead of having a complicated trigger mechanism, just have a fusible wire running through a paper cartridge filled with powder. The wire could be made red hot fairly quickly by connecting it with a decent battery. So instead of a trigger mechanism you would have a switch.

I would love to be able to make my own black powder that will work fairly consistently in a flintlock. I have made it so that it will burn impressively, but I have never made it well enough for the flame to carry through the flash hole.

I would love to learn more about making my own black rifle powder. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance... Coote.
 
IIRC, 20 ga = .62" (cal) and would be an IDEAL survival firearm! It was 200+ years ago as a matter of fact! ;)

A shotgun of any type can deliver what most need in a survival situation. Those of us that are 'gun nuts' tend to like something more 'exotic.' I'm partial to .44's and the .22 WMR...Others would argue both, but it's a matter of having it when you NEED it and being CONFIDENT with it!
 
I think I would take a .22 and ten pounds of long rifle over a BP gun.

That said my one and only long gun here in Brazil is an 18 inch BP 20 ga (approxamately) with a locally designed inline percussion ignition. The barrel is made from the steering column of a car. It packs a wallop. I bought it mainly for the novelty. I don't shoot it much. Mac
 
I like blackpowder. It's fun to shoot and seems to be a more pleasant experience all round. I hate loading the things, though, so I've gravitated to the ideal compromise:
Black Powerder cartridges! Lots of consistent power with that softer, smokier black powder punch, but you just drag out an enormouse piece of brass and drop in another and away you go. They can also be reloaded with extremely primitive tools if you like.
I have a really nice little original Remington Rolling Block in 45-70 saddle-ring carbine that's super short, really handy and AHH! ... those big blackpowder cartriges make shooting it so much nicer than my old 1865 New Model Sharps SRC, even though it too is a breechloader.
 
I hunted with muzzleloading shotguns in the early seventies. All that were available then were the cheap, lightweight .20 & .28 guages imported from Spain. I didn't have a source for cards and wads, but did have gasket punches for making cards, and used wasp nest for the wads and overshot. Loose loads are a danger to watch for. You can ring or burst a barrel easily if your load moves downbore while walking. Need to uncap (or feather the touchhole) and repack before shooting to be safe. And modern requirements (here) for shot other than lead on waterfowl. Steel, tungsten, etc can damage the thin steel bores on those cheap guns, though the more modern ones are thicker and chromed.

I haven't figured the shots per pound of black, and cost of shot in a long time, but back then it was costing me about two to three cents a shot. And in a pinch, most anything can be a projectile if you mind the weight, provide a sabot or cup to keep the stuff together. Generally speaking, lighter powder loads produce better patterns, heavy charges tend to spread the shot. Light shotguns were not made with 500gr. balls in mind. Repro muskets and trade guns were. Their barrels are much thicker, and they will still pattern shot pretty good. Best results are with the modern repros from folks like Dixie Gun Works. Val at Navy Arms helped design some of the better ones from Pedersoli I think. They come in 20, 12, and 10 guage, single and double barrel. Dixie has most of the loading cards, wads, caps, and such as well. If you really get hooked on bp shotgunning like I did, you can make up cartridges of premeasured powder, card, wad,shot column, and overshot card from cigarette papers. Loading is a snap then. Almost as fast as a single shot cartridge shotgun.

Codger
 
If you are trying to survive then you are trying to eat. That means you'd probably trying to hunt squirrel, rabbit and the like. Black powder? First of all too heavy. Ruger 10/22 for my money. Nice little backpack sized carbine.
 
How about a 44 magnum handgun. Plenty of power in a small package. You can load light or heavy loads and also shoot 44 specials and shotshells. It should take care of just about all of your needs. THANK YOU! Kevin
 
Hillbilly.223 said:
If you are trying to survive then you are trying to eat. That means you'd probably trying to hunt squirrel, rabbit and the like. Black powder? First of all too heavy. Ruger 10/22 for my money. Nice little backpack sized carbine.
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My sentiments exactly, although I'd probably take a Mark III due to smaller size. Even hunting something big, a kill should be viable with a .22 with reasonable shot placement.
 
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