Perfect survival gun?

I've thought about a modern muzzle loader for a survival weapon, although modern centerfire firearms, as well as rimfire guns, are unbeatable in a SHTF scenario, IMHO. My idea would be to have a modern, preferably stainless steel muzzle loader, and all the accoutrements, powder, lead, moulds, etc. in a safe bug-out location, perhaps burried there. This would be used in conjunction with the centerfire guns, or in the case of small game, a rimfire weapon, thus conserving the modern ammo.
 
What about those over-under survival guns? I think Savage used to make one in 22LR/410 guage. Does anyone make a 22LR/20 guage? That would be pretty handy. Like everyone else said, I'm talking about for the stew pot, not the battlefield. :rolleyes:

If I were to choose only one gun I think it would be a 12 or 20 guage pump. I'm sure BP is a blast (ho ho) but I'm more comfortable with the reliability and versatililty of modern cartridges. Those Remington 870's that come with a rifled slug barrel and a shot barrel are going for around $350 here... that's a lot of shooting for the money.
 
GibsonFan said:
If I were to choose only one gun I think it would be a 12 or 20 guage pump. I'm sure BP is a blast (ho ho) but I'm more comfortable with the reliability and versatililty of modern cartridges. Those Remington 870's that come with a rifled slug barrel and a shot barrel are going for around $350 here... that's a lot of shooting for the money.
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I here you, and for the most part I agree, I have a 1187 with a 21" barrel, rifle sights, screw in chokes for every purpose under the sun. But it is a much more complex system, I can't carry as much ammo, and it weighs more than twice what my BP gun does. I think for me I would have a hard time deciding on either my BP 12 bore or my CZ 452 22lr, right now, because I am really enjoying it, the 12 is getting the nod. Chris
 
After shooting it.. the accuracy, weight and over all size kinda sold me on this.... I think I'm getting one for Christmas.. it shoots 5.7x28mm so ammo isn't exactally something you're gonna find in Wal-Mart... I took one for a test shoot and grouped 10 shots in 1" at 75yds, with the stock sights...

fn_cb_ps90.jpg

PS-90
 
I think we are talking about game guns not battle rifles. I have been very interested in that caliber in a petite bolt gun for a varmit rifle but it seems to be a bit big for small game and a bit small for large game, not sure where that rifle would fit in in the woods. Chris
 
It looks like that space age gun comes apart and the barrel goes into the stock...am I right? I guess it is a good weapon to have if it needs to be kept out of sight. Is it a single-shot? How much do these things cost?

Ten shots in a 1" group at 75 yards with open sights and a short barrel sounds almost miraculous. Tell us more. Thanks ... Coote.
 
It looks like that space age gun comes apart and the barrel goes into the stock...am I right? I guess it is a good weapon to have if it needs to be kept out of sight. Is it a single-shot? How much do these things cost?

Ten shots in a 1" group at 75 yards with open sights and a short barrel sounds almost miraculous. Tell us more. Thanks ... Coote.
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Breaks into 4 main groups in under 10 seconds for field cleaning. Holds a Maximum of a 50 round clip.. 7.5 lbs with 50 rounds in the mag...

Wikipedia Summary
 
Dang. Quite a bit different to a muzzle loader. Doesn't really LOOK like a rifle though.
 
What about those over-under survival guns? I think Savage used to make one in 22LR/410 guage. Does anyone make a 22LR/20 guage? That would be pretty handy. Like everyone else said, I'm talking about for the stew pot, not the battlefield
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Savage makes one with interchangeable barrels, as does(I'm guessing here) New England Firearms. I belive the NEF one was called the Handi-Rifle. The one I want to get is made by CZ for Springfield Armory:The M-6 Scout, .22 over .410 shotgun. It was made at various times in .22 magnum and .22 Hornet over .410 gauge.It is made in steel with a Parkerized finish, or the highly coveted stainless version. These were originally made as Air Force pilot survival rifles, thus they were made robust and easily maintained, with a minimum of moving parts. They also have a built-in storage compartment in the buttstock for .22 and .410 ammo. Definately a meat-for-the pot item.
images.jpg

Here is a link to a guy who makes the most from an M-6 Scout
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/m6.html
 
Over and unders are very nice but you have got the extra weight of another barrel. If this is a true survival situation don't you want to travel light? Are'nt you already carrying other stuff? Plus now you are having to pack TWO different ammos. Ammo ain't light. Look at how much 22 ammo you can carry.
 
"Over and unders are very nice but you have got the extra weight of another barrel. If this is a true survival situation don't you want to travel light? Are'nt you already carrying other stuff? Plus now you are having to pack TWO different ammos. Ammo ain't light. Look at how much 22 ammo you can carry."

This thing is pretty light, only a couple of pounds, and .410 ga. shells are small. I can put at least 300 rounds of .22 in my pocket before I notice it.
I've been in the field with a 12 ga. shotgun, maybe 50 rounds for it, and had a 9mm on my side loaded, with two extra mags and maybe another 50 or so rounds in my pack, and all that would'nt come close to the M-6 with 1000 rounds of .22, and perhaps another 100 for the .410: it's just not alot of weight compared to major calibers/ gauges, IMO.
 
runningboar said:
Anybody shoot black powder shotguns, or rifles for that matter, great hobby. Chris
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Yup! Got me a .50 Lyman Great Plains Hunter flintlock last year. It's a Hawken replica. I've been having way too much fun with it, and am seriously thinking about getting a black powder shotgun as well. Here's a pic with some of my favourite cutlery:
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To keep this on topic, from a survival perspective my main concern would be keeping my powder dry, with rate of fire being a secondary concern.
 
JCaswell said:
I like blackpowder. It's fun to shoot and seems to be a more pleasant experience all round. I hate loading the things, though
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I like the loading; it's the cleaning that gets to me :).
 
coote said:
It looks like that space age gun comes apart and the barrel goes into the stock...am I right? I guess it is a good weapon to have if it needs to be kept out of sight. Is it a single-shot? How much do these things cost?

Ten shots in a 1" group at 75 yards with open sights and a short barrel sounds almost miraculous. Tell us more. Thanks ... Coote.
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It's the civilian version of the FN P-90, which is a SMG that fires a proprietary necked round designed to penetrate modern body armour at range, with a fifty-round magazine that lies flat along the top of the receiver. I hear that it also shoots nice and flat.

Not my cup of tea, but apparently a very nice gun if you're into that sort of thing.
 
GibsonFan said:
What about those over-under survival guns? I think Savage used to make one in 22LR/410 guage. Does anyone make a 22LR/20 guage? That would be pretty handy. Like everyone else said, I'm talking about for the stew pot, not the battlefield. :rolleyes:

If I were to choose only one gun I think it would be a 12 or 20 guage pump. I'm sure BP is a blast (ho ho) but I'm more comfortable with the reliability and versatililty of modern cartridges. Those Remington 870's that come with a rifled slug barrel and a shot barrel are going for around $350 here... that's a lot of shooting for the money.
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My grandfather had one of those Savage .22/.410 over/unders. My grandmother got six grouse and a rabbit with it one morning, back in the 1940's. He was still bragging about it decades later.

The 870 combo is a sweet deal. I've been thinking about getting the super mag version, but I think that I'm going to tough it out one more season before I buy one of these decadent newfangled cartridge guns :).
 
Hillbilly.223 said:
If you are trying to survive then you are trying to eat. That means you'd probably trying to hunt squirrel, rabbit and the like. Black powder? First of all too heavy. Ruger 10/22 for my money. Nice little backpack sized carbine.
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I'd be inclined to agree. Light, you can carry LOTS of ammo, accurate...
 
Hey Guys...

As much as I like PB guns,, they wouldn't be my first pick as a survival gun..

First of all,, if BP isn't stored properly, it can shoot improperly, causes several different problem..Moisture is the biggest of these problems...
Secondly, it could possibly become hard to find if "TSHTF" type of scenerio...

Probably the best survival gun would be a 12 guage shotgun (Smokeless powder).. There are many ,many different loads that can be fired from this gun,, and you can shoot anything from Tree Rats to Moose with it, pretty muc any game in NA...
Slugs, to 000 Buckshot, to #12 shot for Doves...

The second consideration is price...

12 guage can be had by the case,, or crate if you like for a fairly reasonable cost. A good supply of relaoding gear can also be safely stored in large quantities...
When I was reloading,, I had 5-6 5 gallon buckets stuffed to the top with reloaded shells,,literally thousands of rounds.

Another gun that would also be in the Top 3 would be the .22LR.. The gun is up to you,,but the Ruger 10/22 is an excellent choice....

The nice thing about the .22 is that it is cheap as hell to shoot. you could easily store 5000-10,-20,000 rounds at a reasonable price....

The .22 can take small to mid sized animals, and under the proper conditions, can take deer as well,,however this should never be attempted unless it is absolutely needed...

So I guess if I had two choices for guns it would be a .22 of some type(Including 22 Mag) and a 12 guage shotgun..
If I had one gun to choose it would be a .22 Mag/12 Guage Combo

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
While black powder is hydroscopic (absorbs moisture), it can easily be dried. Black recovered from Civil War artillery shells was used to fire the salute rounds for the burial of the crew of the CSN Hunley submarine a few years ago.

It is not a chemical compound, but rather a mechanical mixture, and with a bit or research and practice, can be made under the most primitive conditions with very low-tech methods. Bat dung or even human urine can supply the needed nitrate. Charcoal is not hard to make either. I'll not go into the manufacture process since it is so easy to find, but I will say that it is easier to make than nitrocellulose based powders.

On the "caps vs, flint" thing, there used to be a "tap-a-cap" on the market which was a small die to punch percussion caps out of aluminum cans. Kid's capgun cap rolls supplied the needed propellent. But a tin of 100 #11 percussion caps costs little and is smaller/lighter than one shotgun shell. A roll of these tins (1,000 caps) is smaller than a can of cheeze whiz. flints take but little room too, and field expedient flints are difficult, but doable.

Lead round balls are easily cast at a campfire from discarded wheel weights, cheap or free at junkyards and tire shops. Any thin cotton cloth works as patching, though even thin leather can be used. In a pinch, paper, or no patching can be used if your ball is near bore sized, and you don't mind the loss of accuracy. Shot can be salvaged from any guage of modern shotshell. Whatcha gonna do with 12 guage shells when your shotgun is a .410? or you find 16 or even 10 or 28 guage shells?

And speaking of complexity of mechanisms, you can't get much simpler than a lock, stock and barrel. Yes, thick barreled traditional BP rifles can be heavy, but the shotguns are considerably lighter than modern ones. And I cannot fathom trying to lug modern shotgun reloading equipment afield.

Cleaning a BP firearm is not the difficult process most non-bp shooters imagine. And even modern firearms have to be cleaned regularly in order to be considered reliable. Like the small caliber over the big bore? BP rifles come in .32 and .36 cal too. They can be loaded with small roundballs, or elongated heavier bullets for larger game.

Lack of familiarity with the antiquated BP firearm keeps many folks from enjoying and using them. My grandfather and father used them well into the depression, and almost up until WWII because the more modern ammo was costly and not to be found everywhere. That was surely a SHTF scenario, true?

The modern BP rifles aren't much heavier than their cartridge counterparts, and the breach plugs are removable for ease in cleaning, or just to unload the gun after a hunt. While the range is not quite the same as with modern cartridges, the accuracy is well within acceptable parameters. I can drill a deer at 100 yards with either.

But then I am just an old....

Codger
 
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