Perfect survival gun?

Codger brought up a lot of the points I was talking about when I started this thread. With my BP shotgun I can carry much more loose components for loads to kill mice to moose than you can with a modern shotgun. Reloading had been mentioned several times I do reload but in a strict survival situation I likely as not will not have my rockchucker in my pack. I am estimating here and will do some testing to verify, but I would say for the weight of one box of modern 12 gauge shotgun shells I can carry 2 to 3 times the number of shots for the BP shotgun, and it kills just as effectively. Several people have mentioned rate of fire I am talking about putting meat in the pot, not protecting me or my family from 2 or 4 legged critters, when hunting I very rarely need another shot and if I do, reloading my BP gun is not that slow once practiced. As far as keeping your powder dry, I am not a buckskin and traditional type of BP enthusiast, in todays age of ziplocks, hi tech plastics, and dessicant packs if your powder gets wet you screwed up.

I can scavage enough materials to keep my BP 12 bore smoking, I probably could for modern guns as well but in my mind the BP gun would be easier. Chris
 
Hey Guys..

Codger you ole SOB....

I'd love to argue this with you,,,however...

You make some excellent points that I can't argue with....

Personally I'd still prefer the convenience of having premade cartridges,,but you do have some valid points for long term usage....

Thanks for the insight

ttyle

Eric...
O/ST
 
Trying to choose a "perfect" anything borders on lunacy, however, this Over/Under by Savage comes as close as I have found if the criteria is only one gun to help feed and defend yourself.
20 ga. for whatever shotgun needs you might have..... much more effective than a .410. and shells are considerably lighter than 12 ga.
22lr is the choice because of the ability to store ammo at a reduced weight. With careful shot selection, it is very effective.

Downside of this choice is that it could be called pricey although not so much by today's standards and at 8 lbs. it is not the lightest weapon a person could find.
All in all though, I think the quality and reliability of the Savage is quite good and this would be a good choice.

http://www.savagearms.com/24f20.htm
 
Normark said:
Hey Guys..

Codger you ole SOB....I'd love to argue this with you,,,however...You make some excellent points that I can't argue with....Personally I'd still prefer the convenience of having premade cartridges,,but you do have some valid points for long term usage....
Thanks for the insight
ttyle
Eric...
O/ST
Click to expand...
During the late War of Northern Agression, premade cartridges were in wide spread use. They were also used earlier during the Colonial Insurection by the fathers of the men in the later war. I make my own, though theirs usually came from manufactories and arsenals.

Take a nitrated paper (Zig-Zag, Tops, etc. cigarette paper), wrap it around an appropriate sized wooden dowel or brass cartridge to form a tube. Seal one end with a dab of Elmer's glue (or hoof paste for authenticity) Make up a few dozen tubes this way. Then stand the tube on end and fill with a measured amount of powder, press in the ball or Minne', and twist closed. Linen was used on some originals, with the bottom whip-tyed with linen thread, carried to the top to whip-tye the top. On these, the cloth becomes the patch. None is needed for the Minne', which is one of two types, solid which is "R.E.A.L." (rifling engraved at loading), or hollow based which expands upon discharge to fill the rifling and impart spin). Of course, with a roundball, the patch fills the rifling and grips the undersized ball to impart spin. All of this is non-applicable to smoothbores like the shotguns and muskets. There is no spin, but the patch is a gas seal still. The overpowder wad acts as a seal and piston on a shot column. Wasp nest works well because it does not burn like newspaper would. Still, shotgun cartridges for BP are doable. There are also plastic speed loaders which are virtually weatherproof.:p

C O D G E R E S S O B E E :D

Edit: I forgot to mention what not to do. 75 Daisey BB's with 75gr of powder in a .20 ga. Killed three ducks and nearly broke my jaw and shoulder.
 
If you are truly in a survival mode and have'nt eaten for 2 days and you see a ground squirrel 50 ft away what would be left of it to eat after your BP gun blew it to smithereens?
 
Hillbilly.223 said:
If you are truly in a survival mode and have'nt eaten for 2 days and you see a ground squirrel 50 ft away what would be left of it to eat after your BP gun blew it to smithereens?
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Shotgun Hillbilly, black powder shotgun.
 
For all around "survival" type gun, I think its probably the 12 gauge pump shotgun. Can handle anything from light dove loads to 3" slugs. I'm not sure whether shotgun shells have the level of waterproofness (is that a word) as a modern brass cartridge but its got to be better than the black powder.

If you like the blackpowder, by all means use it.
 
I like the idea of a dual purpose grocery getter! Our fore fathers typically had only a squirrel gun or a shotgun to put meat on the table(Ignoring snares and traps, trotlines etc.) Today we can have both in the same package.
Black powder has the advantage of allowing a supply of ammunition that is unlikely to run out (you can make all of the components relatively easily if you have lots of time. Get potasium nitrate from animal dung). I have heard tales of lold timers during WWII taking down the ol' shogun pouring some lead thru a sive and going hunting when civilian ammo was near impossible to get (one of 'em even claimed to have made his own powder). (This story led me to some small trouble in my younger years as it was quite easy to obtain the makins.)
Enjoy!
 
Guys I might have to side with the hillbilly on this one. I don't own either of these guns but the 10/22 would have to be almost half as light as the BP. If he misses he could simply pull the trigger again and again and.... Also if he misses the noise would not scare the game as much. Especially if he got the CCI subsonic ammo. It makes about as much noise as a pellet rifle and its hollow point. The jury is still out. I'm looking forward to more posts.
 
Hard to kill a moose with a 10/22, not saying it can't be done, just saying it is difficult. 10/22 weighs about the same as a single barrel BP shotgun, 10/22 is a much more complex system and prone to more failures and hard for most users to repair with rudimentary tools, 22lr is not reloadable although plentiful and cheap, once your supply is gone it is gone.
 
How many moose is the average Joe going to come across? You'd be lucky to get a shot at a mouse or a rat.
 
OK I will change moose to feral hogs and deer, in my native state of GA the average Joe is very likely to run across either. Small game would probably be most sought after but fresh pork is always nice too.

Have you ever tried to shoot flushing birds, ducks, geese or running rabbits with a 10/22, like the moose, I am not saying it can't be done, but a shotgun makes it a lot easier. Chris
 
There should be a contest between two folks, one with a shotgun, BP or otherwise< and the other with a .22. Basically, the deal would be you can have only whatever ammo you can carry and you can only eat what you kill. After a month, I'd be willing to bet the guy with the shotgun will be begging to be friends with the guy that has the .22.

In a true "survival" situation, you will not have the luxury of a stockpile of ammunition buried somewhere that you have ready access to -- hence you only get what ammo you can carry. And obviously, Mel's Diner is closed or not around, so you only eat what you can kill.

A shotgun may allow the taking of some game (faster or bigger) more easily than a .22, but how many people here could keep a deer protected from predators and spoilage for a month, again, in a true survival situation? Not many I'd bet. So there's probably a lot of waste unless you go for something smaller anyway. Yes, a shotgun is easier to kill a flushing pheasant with versus a .22, but unless you're fairly proficient with a shotgun, you may need more than one shot to actually hit the bird, and suddenly the notion of a BP shotgun isn't a good idea.

Everyone has their opinion on what they would take, and there may be no clear winner here. If survival is that social order in the world has come to an end and you must protect your family, then I think a shotgun is best. But if by survival you mean out in the middle of nowhere for an undetermined period of time and you need food, then a .22 is where it is at for me folks. And by a long shot at that!
 
H&R makes a nice little .45 colt/.410 rig that allows a big enough rifle cartridge to kill whatever, and a nice little .410 for squirrels, rabbits, etc. The main ?? is are we talkin' 3 weeks or 3 years here? My personal setup is a 10/22 with a scope, iron sights zeroed as well, and a parts kit for uh-ohs, and about 300 rds. of ammo in spare clips and ziplocs. If weight is really critical to you get a tactical solutions barrel (http://www.tacticalsol.com) 16.5 inches at a back-breaking 15 oz. and even pick your color.
 
.22 long rifle is the best. It will kill just about anything you'd want to eat in N. America. Good rifles are readily available and affordable. Ammo is about the cheapest, and can get it anywhere, and it is the easiest to carry.

I'm talking now about something to use when you are in the toolies, miles from the nearest grocery store, where you have to find your own food.

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/224survivaltg.htm

My second choice would be a Winchester model 94 Trapper model with the short barrel.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=094&cat=C

I like shotguns but if it were a matter of survival I'd shoot the bird on the ground or in the branch with my trusty .22.
 
DGG said:
.22 long rifle is the best. .
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I started this thread to get discussion like we are and am enjoying it very much, I was interested in hearing other peoples perspectives, thank all of you for participating.

DGG I quoted you because I really don't believe in absolutes, what might be best for you may not be best for me and all situations are not the same, so there really is not "best". This is a hypothetical situation of course, no one can go into the woods for 3 months with different guns to test their effectiveness. I own 3 ruger 10/22s and love them and think that they would be a great choice, and a man armed with one would not go hungry if there was game available. I really only shoot 22s, shotguns and pistols I don't fool with centerfire rifles too much. I am an accomplished shotgunner and wingshot, so for me perhaps a shotgun of some sort would be better suited, but as I have said in other posts it would be a toss up with my cz 452 22lr.

BP firearms, shotguns in particular, are much more effective than people think they are. With a little practice you are not handicapped much at all as I meant in my first post, if you haven't tried them don't discount them. Chris
 
If the situation was not a "Global Calamity" type situation, and you had the ability to pick and choose at your leisure a gun and any extra ammo/supplies/etc. then would it be a survival gun or a huntin' gun? I say this because one tool for several jobs is key in selecting gear for the above mentioned "GC". If what is needed is a non-hostilities, just livin' in the woods gun then most any well maintained firearm will do quite well, since hunting will be only one of several ways of gathering food. And if one is carrying 110 lbs of powder and shot/leadballs, in addition to a load of basic wilderness gear, then clearly one has the means to tote just about anything shy of a 105mm howitzer. That said, I believe that woodsman skills are the foundation your gun rests upon anyway. An idiot with a laser cannon would still most likely die if he didn't have a working wilderness skill set to fall back on. I would like to be proficient with whatever I may end up with, knowing that I might not be able to pick. And heck no, I would not turn my nose up at a nice BP gun if I needed it. On a different track, if I was engaged in long term wilderness living as an option, I would utilize a .22 cal. single stroke pellet gun for rats, birds, etc. to compliment my main guns. ammo is superlight, report is relatively quiet, and not hard to maintain at all.
 
beckerhead said:
And if one is carrying 110 lbs of powder and shot/leadballs, in addition to a load of basic wilderness gear, then clearly one has the means to tote just about anything shy of a 105mm howitzer..
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I was with you on everything but this statement, nobody mentioned anything like 110 pounds of anything, all that was mentioned was a comparison of loose components compared to modern shells.

beckerhead said:
If what is needed is a non-hostilities, just livin' in the woods gun then most any well maintained firearm will do quite well
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I disagree, try getting a mess of squirrels with a 7mm mag. Chris
 
I was referring to you mentioning how 10 lbs of powder and 100 of shot would last a long time. And that 110 lbs of any combo whether BP or 700 nitro express is alot, and opens a lot of possibilities shy of artillery. I was not chunkin' rocks at you. And yes a 7mag would be overkill (so would a .715 punkin') for a squirrel . But, the point is you could survive. The difference between bugging out post apocolypse, and just living off grid is huge. Thats why I wanted to ascertain the exact scenario. Making it with a smokepole is 100% doable, heck we're here aren't we. Somebody didn't feel too handicapped way back when now did they? The same guns will kill the same way they used to. If I was gearing up for full on hillbilly livin' I would have a small battery of guns, ammo, and any necessary tools. In addition to the notable amount of needed items for establishing wilderness living. a solid 2 week survival kit is still not a complete groundwork for establishing permanent residence. You can just survive, or you can thrive. In a planned departure from modern society one could make arrangements for needed components to make powder, shot, balls, etc. So could one do the same with reloading supplies. In an Oh S*#@ your gonna get outa dodge and make due. Otherwise it is a complete matter of preference that should be based on ones personal competence. On a sidenote Runningboar you mentioned hogs earlier, are you close to Arkansas? I love hog hunting and am always looking for a new trip.
 
Very good discussion- Looking at something along the lines of a baby rolling block in .357 Mag- enough for deer and .38 loads would work great for small critter, ammo is small and very easy to reload with hand tools. a melting ladle and mould would having me recycling spent wadcutters or turning wheel weight/scrap lead into bullets. Scavenging ammo from any place that used to sell sporting goods would be easy.
Meanwhile I have a Romanian trainer in .22 lr that could occupy tinker time while thinnking this project through.
Bill
 
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