Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

[Lorien]

Cariboo Scott- It's great to see you in here, a fellow BC Canuck. We met at the Filburg Festival a year or two ago.

www.caribooblades.com, for all you out there not familiar with Scott's work. Very solid working blades, definitely full of soul and made to perform:thumbup:

 

[Tai Goo]

The word "instinct" actually has several meanings like most words:

Instinct, the way I'm using it means, a natural "aptitude" or "gift", and is also synonymous with "knack", "faculty" and "talent".

Knifemaking and bladesmithing instinct is uniquely human,... but not all humans seem to have it. For the ones who do have it, learning comes much faster and easier, and the craft of bladesmithing or knifemaking comes much more naturally...

I just thought I should clarify that.

 

[David Schott]

The word "instinct" actually has several meanings like most words:

Instinct, the way I'm using it means, a natural "aptitude" or "gift", and is also synonymous with "knack", "faculty" and "talent".

Knifemaking and bladesmithing instinct is uniquely human,... but not all humans seem to have it. For the ones who do have it, learning comes much faster and easier, and the craft of bladesmithing or knifemaking comes much more naturally...

I just thought I should clarify that.

I totally agree. I think thats the "art" side of knifemaking, just as someone could take every painting course in the world and still be outskilled and outclassed by someone with natural ability and no formal training. Same goes for music...most people could learn the basics of playing an instrument, but only a select few can take those basics and make music others will pay to hear.

Knifemaking is a really cool mix of that kind of instinctual ability and the science which can back up that style and ingrained talent and push the functional ability of the knives even further.

 

[caribooblades]

I totally agree. I think thats the "art" side of knifemaking, just as someone could take every painting course in the world and still be outskilled and outclassed by someone with natural ability and no formal training. Same goes for music...most people could learn the basics of playing an instrument, but only a select few can take those basics and make music others will pay to hear.

...and, of course, those with instinct drive some people mad.


Thanks Lorien.

Scott.

 

[Tai Goo]

...and, of course, those with instinct drive some people mad.


Thanks Lorien.

Scott.

That's because there is no substitute for it.

However, those who have "marginal" instinct can do quite well if they work hard enough at it, but should refrain from trying to discredit those who have it,... or B.S.ing their way to the top...

 

[gator68]

That's because there is no substitute for it.

However, those who have "marginal" instinct can do quite well if they work hard enough at it, but should refrain from trying to discredit those who have it,... or B.S.ing their way to the top...

I think we are talking at right angles here.

You are right that good design takes a certain type of mind. I think it can be helped along with practice, critique and study. Your (Tai's) designs and execution are remarkable. I think you sell yourself short by insisting this is "instinct."

The science of metallurgy that you seem so concerned about is a different matter completely, and I would argue this is not a matter of instinct. There is no instinct that tells someone how to heat treat a steel. This is a matter of learning and practice.

One can make cool designs but have no idea of how to make the steel work; or do a perfect heat treat but have a crappy design. The best bladesmiths can do both.

I have no idea what you mean when you refer to people "trying to discredit those who have it,... or B.S.ing their way to the top..."

 

[Tai Goo]

Gator68, just go back and read post #182 again. The instinct or talent facilitates the learning of the craft as a whole... A person can have a talent or knack for heat treating, like anything else,... baking cookies, firing ceramics, annealing glass, etc...

After teaching this craft for over 20 years, I can definitely say that we each have a different level of instinct or talent... Those who don't have much often resent those who do, and may concoct wild stories, (often laced with a lot of scientific gibberish), to help support or promote their work... I'm not saying that they all do it though, or that there is anything wrong with an artist or crafts person promoting their work honestly.

 

[2knife]

I rally am getting a kick out of this thread. What I really should tell you all about me is that half the time, I'm not being very serious. I'm full of dry humor. And a few other things!!! Haa! It just doesn't come out in typing.

Mike

Mike,
Have you seen the movie "Jaws" ? .. reminds of the dry humor like the fellow who was the crusty old shark hunter, opposite Richard Dreyfus. "'..we're going to need a bigger boat."

Seriously, thank you to everyone for the information. I have learned one fact here, if nothing else.. that i am not a scientist.
David

 

[Tai Goo]

Gator68, I actually think we are both basically saying the same thing, but are hung up on the word "instinct", which I tried to clarify.

Here is an excellent quote from RMLamey. Matt has a knack, talent or "instinct" for heat treating.

Expensive equipment does not always translate into superior heat treat. Ive sold very expensive digitally controlled ovens to go back to a good propane fired heat treat forge that gives me MUCH better results.

Heat treat is a funny thing, I can give another maker the exact way ive treated a blade, both using steel from the same batch etc... and we will come out with different results. IF it were as simple as whats written in a book then there would be little to no trouble out there with heat treating, and it wouldnt really even be a topic.

I went through a very similar experience... got rid of my top of the line controlled electric furnace along with other false crutches.

 

[Don Hanson III]

That quote from Matt is exactly what I have experienced in the last few years.

Actually I'm the one who got Matt's HT oven

 

[Tai Goo]

That quote from Matt is exactly what I have experienced in the last few years.

Actually I'm the one who got Matt's HT oven

LOL

... funny Don.

 

[Broos]

Finding a way to get good repeatable results using a repeatable method. Matt tested his blades, using the results to judge which method gave him the best results. You may call it instinct, but I'd call that use of the scientific method. I will not deny art or instinct, but also feel that if one understands the science behind it it can only help the final result.

 

[2knife]

Are there hidden faults (sometimes) in steel?

If so, what do these result from?
David

 

[deltablade]

rm will you be at the blade show this year

 

[Tai Goo]

Are there hidden faults (sometimes) in steel?

If so, what do these result from?
David

Yes, mainly from the manufacturing process,... things like porosity, gas pockets, impurities and inclusions. There can also be variance from one piece to the next and from batch to batch, abnormal grain size, and micro fractures...

 

[Tai Goo]

Finding a way to get good repeatable results using a repeatable method. Matt tested his blades, using the results to judge which method gave him the best results. You may call it instinct, but I'd call that use of the scientific method. I will not deny art or instinct, but also feel that if one understands the science behind it it can only help the final result.

I think that is mostly true. However, if you turn that around it comes out, "if one misunderstands the science behind it, it can only hurt the final result". That's a scary thought because I don't think anyone totally understands 100% of the science behind it absolutely correctly. Isolated facts can be real stumbling blocks if too much emphasis etc., is put on them.

Once the "basic" science is understood,... it comes full circle back around to instinct, aptitude and talent.

Does a chef need to understand 100% of the science behind baking a pie?

I think it comes back around to what Keith Montgomery and David Schott suggested, that you can know all the metallurgy and science in the world, but still not be able to make a decent knife:

I think there should be a mix of science and artistic creativity. A maker needs to have an understanding of the science of knifemaking. I don't think they need to be metallurgists, but they should understand enough about steel and heat treating to be able to do the best work they can. However, someone can know everything there is to know about the science of steel and not be able to make a knife worth a darn. To make interesting and beautiful knives of their own creation, makers have to have an artistic bent.

I totally agree. I think thats the "art" side of knifemaking, just as someone could take every painting course in the world and still be outskilled and outclassed by someone with natural ability and no formal training. Same goes for music...most people could learn the basics of playing an instrument, but only a select few can take those basics and make music others will pay to hear.

Knifemaking is a really cool mix of that kind of instinctual ability and the science which can back up that style and ingrained talent and push the functional ability of the knives even further.

I wouldn't get too carried away with this "science" business... I think it is where most of the modern myths originate.

 

[Tai Goo]

I think that there has been a big push by some to make science the “final authority” in the art/craft of knifemaking. That’s the BIG MYTH!

It is commonly accepted that all of the arts involve some science. I don’t think anyone is arguing with that.

However, if custom or handmade knifemaking and bladesmithing are primarily and ultimately art,… then we would all do well to study art, practice art and/or also seek out some formal training in that area...

One of the problems we face in the art of handmade knives is that many don’t understand or study art. Art is often taken for granted, swept under the rug, and misunderstood.

Does art involve science?… Sure it does.

Does art involve performance? Yes, any of the utilitarian arts or crafts do.

Does art require talent? Of course it does. However, with out hard work, practice, desire, and dedication, all the instinct or talent in the world won’t do you much good. You have to use, nurture and develop your talent.

Is there a difference between art and aesthetics? Yes there is.

Art is very latitudinarian and involves many fields of study and various disciplines,... yet is a distinct field of it‘s own.
That’s why I say,... art transcends science.

 

[2knife]

Yes, mainly from the manufacturing process,... things like porosity, gas pockets, impurities and inclusions. There can also be variance from one piece to the next and from batch to batch, abnormal grain size, and micro fractures...

In stock removal and forging, both (generally speaking) are the same as far as risk, inconsistencies and gas pockets, etc..?

i have heard that etching a blade will sometimes reveal deep scratches, which are otherwise invisible.
David

 

[gator68]

I think that there has been a big push by some to make science the “final authority” in the art/craft of knifemaking. That’s the BIG MYTH!

I have not seen this at all. You've made allusions to people using "science" to discredit you and others. Can you point to examples? I have seen people pointing out the facts about heat treating steel. I appreciate seeing the results of other people's research. Don't you?

Re RMLamey's quote about heat treating, with all due respect, if two people are getting different results heat treating, then they are doing something differently. This is not a surprise given that most bladesmiths do not have a well controlled process. Try using this excuse with the FAA or military when you are delivering heat treated parts to use on planes. You will be (at best) laughed out of business, if not taken to court.

However, if custom or handmade knifemaking and bladesmithing are primarily and ultimately art,… then we would all do well to study art, practice art and/or also seek out some formal training in that area...

That is a mighty big IF!! There are some people who approach knife making first as an art (yourself I assume) and others who approach it first as a tool-making craft. How many knife makers do you hear talking about how they want their knives to be used? How many are proud to have knives in the hands of hunters, or soldiers deployed overseas? How many test their knives to try to improve real-world performance?

I see nothing wrong with studying art to improve knife design. I do wonder though why you seem dead-set against studying metallurgy to improve knife performance?? Have you sought out formal training in steel heat treating? Wouldn't you encourage a neophyte to seek out formal training in understanding steel?

One of the problems we face in the art of handmade knives is that many don’t understand or study art. Art is often taken for granted, swept under the rug, and misunderstood.
...
Art is very latitudinarian and involves many fields of study and various disciplines,... yet is a distinct field of it‘s own.
That’s why I say,... art transcends science.

I'm a big fan of art. I've been studying and practicing various forms of art since I could pick up a crayon. I appreciate your views on art and bladesmithing, and I appreciate you trying to bring some formal tools found in the art world, like the critique, into the world of custom knives.

I still disagree that technical skills, knowledge and honest testing can be replaced with instinct.

 

[stephanfowler]

Re RMLamey's quote about heat treating, with all due respect, if two people are getting different results heat treating, then they are doing something differently. This is not a surprise given that most bladesmiths do not have a well controlled process. Try using this excuse with the FAA or military when you are delivering heat treated parts to use on planes. You will be (at best) laughed out of business, if not taken to court.

UMMMMM, the FAA and the Military have the wherewithal to order 1000 TONS of a certain steel chemistry and require EXTREME tolerances in terms of alloying elements. Us poor bladesmiths are sorta stuck using whichever batch of steel happens to be around.
Ever heard of "Black Diamond W1" - Its a trade name for a PARTICULAR batch of W1 that was frickin awesome to HT. I can buy W1 all over the place. But unless by some freak accident they ACCIDENTLY hit the EXACT alloying of the black diamond batch, W1 will never HT exactly the same.
Each batch is different. When you start to work beyond "good enough" HT your process MUST take into account the minute alloying variances allowable.

W1
Carbon 0.70-1.50%
Chromium 0.15%
Manganese 0.10-0.40%
Molybdenum 0.10%
Nickel 0.20%
Silicon 0.10-0.40%
Tungsten 0.50%
Vanadium 0.10%

That's a .8% SPREAD of carbon, a .3% SPREAD of Manganese, and .3% SPREAD of silicon

If you've ever studied HT to any depth you realize that can make a HUGE difference.