Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

[Tai Goo]

It is the subtle, more individual, and intangible aspects of "performance", and the craft of bladesmithing, that interests me the most...

 

[Lorien]

...which is why I've asked you to make me a knife

 

[2knife]

It is the subtle, more individual, and intangible aspects of "performance", and the craft of bladesmithing, that interests me the most...

I am still listening... What do you mean? intangible?

You bring a different perspective about this. I am glad to hear such a person speak in the way you do. After reading your philosophy, i would have to encourage Mike to also give your thoughts a second glance, when he claims there is no soul imparted to a knifemakers work.

Maybe this personal thing the "soul" of a knife, the artists understanding and ability to send a message with his work, is the important issue. More than given credit. It cannot be measured by a test.

About the "craft" of it, I showed photos of my Ed Fowler knife collection to a master violin maker. Since it is part of my life/job too. Curious what he would say.. this was his response:

"They are all obviously by the same hand.

How cool is that? Homegrown knives! That is really awesome.
I've never caught, in any serious fashion, the collectors bug.
Even for violins.
I appreciate the impulse, actually I find it quite powerful.
Just the same my attention span is such that I'm relatively safe from
entering the fray.

Thanks for sharing the pics. Always nice to see other people's handwork.
As a matter of fact that is one of my big turn ons (sp?).
Presidents and such come and go but the works of man that last
generations are
special to me especially the ones that show signs of intelligence
i.e. a sense of proportion.

B

 

[caribooblades]

Hi.
The significance of the steel whether it be from an old truck spring, a lumber mill sawblade or a tank bearing. Excellent steels. There is so much quality high carbon steel out there. Known steels. Easy steel to forge an excellent knife from.
Routing through the scrap and bone yards finding what you know is excellent steel. The yard guy squirrels away chunks of copper and brass to trade you for a knife.
Handforging, shaping, making it move where you want it to go. Subtly infusing your spirit into the piece.
Taking time
and knowing exactly what you are doing, relying on your own instincts because you have the confidence to make...to create.
Making a knife with soul you’ve got to have soul.

Nothing better than a piece of pie baked with a little soul.

Scott.

 

[gator68]

To give science too much emphasis and authority on what is traditionally considered an art form, (such as bladesmithing), really spoils it and takes the fun out. It becomes tasteless and sterile after a while... Keep it up and the day may come when the "best knives" are made by robots.

What happened to romance, mystery, man, fire and hammer?
...
Science is fine (if kept in perspective), but knifemaking is not a science, nor should it be dictated by science. There are just too many non-scientific subjective intangible aspects, variables and considerations to the art/craft to take any strict scientific approach seriously... There is no genuine scientific approach to any art form,... only pseudoscientific.

Yes, it's all an ongoing study. And there is always room for learning and improvement. However, if you understand the "process" and can make a consistently good knife,... it's not an accident. You don't even need to know the science to understand the process, and can explain the process scientifically or unscientifically... just like baking a pie.

A great painter doesn't need to know the chemistry of the paints (outside of basic compatibility. Oil and water don't mix, obviously), or even anything about color theory. It can be done instinctively and intuitively.

There are also many great musicians who don't know squat about music theory. They do it all by ear.
They don't need to know the metallurgy behind their piano strings to play... That's ridicules!

"Concept" dictates art, and we don't all have to work with the same concept or concepts of performance or aesthetics. Depending on the concept, performance may play a greater or lesser role... there is no right or wrong to that.

I disagree with so much of what Tai has written that I suspect I must simply be misunderstanding completely what he is trying to say.

The idea that one can make a good knife completely from instinct is historically and patently wrong. Who first discovered that iron could be made into steel? Who discovered that steel could be shaped under heat and hammer, hardened and tempered? This happened by instinct? If I set a complete newbie in front of an assortment of steel and tools, with no other knowlege, what is the chance I would get a good knife out of that? Calling this simply "instinct" denigrates the learning we all have about steel that was gained over centuries of hard work. Tai has the luxury of denouncing the "science" in knifemaking because he has already internalized much of it.

I think Tai is trying to suggest that the design elements of a knife can be done instinctually. I would agree with that... although even there, if you want "performance" I would suggest real-world testing. For example, is your concept handle design comfortable under hard use?

I took a bunch of art classes in college and ran into this attitude all the time. The classes were full of people rushing to do "art" and never learning how to draw, paint or understand color or form. Picasso did not invent Cubism until after he had mastered drawing and painting. There are perhaps some savants who are able to create truely great art without training, but all of the greats I can think of are masters of their craft, theory and application. I don't see why anyone would want to limit themselves by deliberately ignoring information that would help them create in their chosen art form.

There is no conflict between understanding the proper heat treat of a steel and making whatever form wanted from that steel. However, not understanding what is going on in the steel leaves the maker open to accidentally getting it right... what is the guarantee they will get it right when they are making your knife? Relying on the "process"? What if the process is marginal? This is a standard real-world problem studied in any manufacturing environment.

 

[Michael Lovett]

2Knife- sorry I left out one of your questions. Yes. A stock removal knife can be differentially heat treated just as a forged knife. Just has to be similar steels.

Now Guy's. I've been yanking your chains just a little. Of course a forged blade can have a soul.
A part of ourselves that we put into each and every knife we create. The only difference I can see to our beliefs is that as a maker that makes knives both ways. If you knew all the time and trouble I put into a knife to get an ultra clean and functional tool. (Some world say a work of art. I never went that far.) )As Bob Loveless has said many times. I'm just a craftsman. Trying to make the best tool I know how. Something I can be proud of. You would hesitate to claim that it has no soul. Whether it was hit with a hammer before grinding the flats or not. We all feel the same about the knives we produce. I was in my own way trying to get people here to see that we can have pre prejudiced attitudes toward what we like. Sure I ruffled a few feathers saying that a forged knife has no soul. Now how would you feel is your preferred method was stock removal, and the same was implied about all your years of research and toil. Same, same.

It's like sorta like two people from two religious denominations arguing on who will go to heaven or who will not. We all have our preconceived notions and believes. Being Half Indian, I am at least allowed to believe that an inanimate object can have a soul. Looks like a lot of makers and collectors are coming around to our way of thinking!!! Haaa! Lol!

Just don't rush out and tell your Preacher, Reverend, Rabi, or whatever about us all believing that a man make object can have a soul. We'll all be burned at the stake for heresy..

I rally am getting a kick out of this thread. What I really should tell you all about me is that half the time, I'm not being very serious. I'm full of dry humor. And a few other things!!! Haa! It just doesn't come out in typing.


Mike

 

[Tai Goo]

2knife, by intangible I just mean more the psychological aspects of performance or preference, than the physical. I think we each condition our minds (or let them be conditioned) to a certain degree, which has a lot to do with tastes, preferences and how we perceive performance.

gatot68, bladesmithing and knifemaking are both inherent human instincts. You don't see animals making knives do you? Fire and knives may have been the first two human attributes that separated us from apes... Tap into that primal human essence!

If our ancient ancestors had to know metallurgy as a material science the way we think of it today in order to work with metals, we would still be in the stone age,… and there wouldn‘t be any metallurgy at all.

Like I said, science is fine and it may actually help some makers, but we need to keep it in perspective. The problem comes when too much emphasis is put on science and makers start to credit themselves and discredit others over it. When you mix science with agendas, assumptions, personal preferences, philosophy, opinions, aesthetics, anything subjective, etc... it can become the source of all kinds of trouble.

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

gatot68, bladesmithing and knifemaking are both inherent human instincts. You don't see animals making knives do you? Fire and knives may have been the first two human attributes that separated us from apes... Tap into that primal human essence!

If our ancient ancestors had to know metallurgy as a material science the way we think of it today in order to work with metals, we would still be in the stone age,… and there wouldn‘t be any metallurgy at all.

Like I said, science is fine and it may actually help some makers, but we need to keep it in perspective. The problem comes when too much emphasis is put on science and makers start to credit themselves and discredit others over it. When you mix science with agendas, assumptions, personal preferences, philosophy, opinions, aesthetics, anything subjective, etc... it can become the source of all kinds of trouble.

I have to point something out here. You state you are not a scientist, and that we must keep it in perspective. Fine. But please do as you advise and stay out of speaking about scientific principles that you have not studied.
Bladesmithing and knifemaking ARE NOT instinctual, they are learned. put as much soul and art into your knives as possible but stating that they are instinct instead of learned is the same lies as stating theories about edge packing, pyramids, and quenching in chickens blood. You do your position nothing by stating a fact that is most assuredly not a fact. Stick to knifemaking, and artistry and what you get out of things and let those with the training in materials science and anthropology state the facts about their field of study. As you state when you mix these fields with agenda (which you have done yourself) then it is the source of problems, especially when you are not educated in these fields and state something as fact!

 

[Tai Goo]

Do you consider observing action and reaction, and trial and error to be science?

If so, then animals are scientists too...

 

[Don Hanson III]

(Mike L.) I rally am getting a kick out of this thread. What I really should tell you all about me is that half the time, I'm not being very serious. I'm full of dry humor. And a few other things!!! Haa! It just doesn't come out in typing.

Well, Mike, this helps folks understand a bit where you're coming from. I like dry humor, more use of the smilies in your earlier posts would have helped

Also, the forging myths that you are referring to, have been dispelled long ago. I didn't realize anyone still believed them The makers I'm around don't but I guess the gun show crowd is different

On another note here, I've learned a lot from the science of knife making but I tend to make knives more in line with what Tai is talking about (I understand him completely, I think ). I find myself balancing the two and make knives because I love to.

If we all used the same steels and methods, it would be very boring and handmade knives would soon fade away.

 

[Michael Lovett]

I hate to tell you this Tai, but trial and error is science. You don't have to wear a white lab coat to experiment and apply what has been learned. The passing along of gained knowledge, and the study of the same, along with constant testing of theories and methods, with the resulting outcomes is the very definition of Science. So my friend. It is in many ways Science. The Art of forging is in and of its self a Science. Of course unless one chooses to ignore all knowledge that came before. The key word here would be ignore. It's where the word ignorance comes from.

None of us (I Hope) are ignoring all the benefits of what has been learned in the past.
But just as foolish would be ignoring what is being learned today. Whether in the forge, or lab. knowledge is power. Steel is power. Put the two together, and there is no limit as what we can do! Only the limits we set in our own mind.

Flint is out! Steel is in! From a Practical or Scientific stand point anyway. Lol!
I guess I fogot about the advanced feature for posting smillies!

Mike

 

[Michael Lovett]

Well, Mike, this helps folks understand a bit where you're coming from. I like dry humor, more use of the smilies in your earlier posts would have helped

Also, the forging myths that you are referring to, have been dispelled long ago. I didn't realize anyone still believed them The makers I'm around don't but I guess the gun show crowd is different



On another note here, I've learned a lot from the science of knife making but I tend to make knives more in line with what Tai is talking about (I understand him completely, I think ). I find myself balancing the two and make knives because I love to.

If we all used the same steels and methods, it would be very boring and handmade knives would soon fade away.

Yeah, You got that exactly right! Don, I still read this stuff in the Knife Rag's. It's like it's part of the sub culture now. You read an article dispelling it, only to have a article putting it right back to the front of the class again. shows and talking. Or explaining to us poor olé uneducated stock removal makers, all the magic marvels were missing out on! Of course they aren't going to explain it to you. they figure you guys are the Mystic Masters. They would feel unworthy to tell a Master Smith the secrets of steel! Trust me on this one. I hear it at every single show I attend. The Myths may have been dispelled in our ranks, but to the un initiated show going dude, it is sacred. Just as much as the myths surrounding the Japanese blades are to the Mall Ninja. It will take years for all the damage to be undone. If ever. And why should the Smiths really want to. It still makes money. If I was a smith, I wouldn't spend time telling prospective customers that the very beliefs that make them yearn for a forged blade are just that. Beliefs. Not facts.

One thing I thing every one here will agree on, If not of the science of metallurgy, all these assumptions of what was going on inside the blades would still be put fourth as facts. Just as they were just a few short years ago. So you see there is room of science and knowledge of our craft. Just as there is room for learned skills and artistry. .


I think the Forged Knives are beautiful enough to be an art to them selves. No Magic of steel needed. They stand in their own light. Simply for the joy of owning something made in the old ways. That should be plenty for most. It is for the makers. And it is we who decide what we are going to make and how we are going to make our Knives.






Man. If I had a dollar for every bit of miss information printed in B**de and K**ves I**.
. I could retire. Heck we all could. the last one was an article explaining how, for like of a better word, framed handle was the strongest of all handle types. Here we go again! I guess they really do run out of anything to say in the rag's.

Mike

 

[David Schott]

Do you consider observing action and reaction, and trial and error to be science?

If so, then animals are scientists too...

I'd say if you are consciously testing, looking at results and refining, its a science....theorize, test, observe, refine, repeat....

If you are just trying random things and hoping for the best, its luck and discovery....lots of "science" started by pure chance, but needed lots of "real science" to refine into something usable. Spilling rubber on a stove and noticing its more flexible is luck and discovery. Testing different rubber mixtures and heats to improve on your luck and discovery is science, IMHO.

I don't think animals are scientists as they dont go into something looking to imrpove upon it or learn from it...they go through cycles of luck and discovery and adapt, but are not really conscious of it. A dog might learn its faster to run on carpet then a wood floor and do so, but he didnt say "im going to test both, observe which was faster and why, then decide where to run...." I guess its a fine line but a big one....

 

[gator68]

gatot68, bladesmithing and knifemaking are both inherent human instincts. You don't see animals making knives do you? Fire and knives may have been the first two human attributes that separated us from apes... Tap into that primal human essence!

If our ancient ancestors had to know metallurgy as a material science the way we think of it today in order to work with metals, we would still be in the stone age,… and there wouldn‘t be any metallurgy at all.

I disagree. Tool use is very human, yes, but mining, refining, forging etc is anything but instinctual. It is learned. The steels we use today couldn't exist without the science we have today. And without those steels, many things would be much harder or impossible.

The early work -- starting with making stone tools -- forms a long chain stretching from history to now that results in the very cool and capable knives people make today. A steel knife is better than an iron knife... which is better than bronze... which is better than chert. That is not a criticism of the past but merely stating the facts of the matter. Progress is a good thing!

Like I said, science is fine and it may actually help some makers, but we need to keep it in perspective. The problem comes when too much emphasis is put on science and makers start to credit themselves and discredit others over it. When you mix science with agendas, assumptions, personal preferences, philosophy, opinions, aesthetics, anything subjective, etc... it can become the source of all kinds of trouble.

Whether you admit it or not, the process you use now is not instinct. It was learned. Science is one method of understanding and learning. People have spent a lot of time and money researching steel. Why would anyone not wish to benefit from all that effort that others have made?

How would understanding and acting on modern metallurgical information prevent you from doing the kinds of designs you do? I love your designs, I own one of your knives, I'm not knocking you as an artist. But as long as people are talking about knives, not simply art, one cannot ignore the fact that steel is steel, and one can heat treat it well or badly. I see this as a completely separate issue from the design of the knife.

 

[Tai Goo]

Cuts Like A Kris, I actually have studied metallurgy, anthropology, and psychology in college, and on my own. I do hold a "master of fine arts degree", MFA, which is the highest degree in the field of studio arts. My area of specialization was in "metalsmithing", which you could think of as creative applied science or metallugy if you like. Those things were "part" of my studies in art, and studied separately.

I don't see how anything I'm saying could contribute to the problem here, because I have been fair to both sides of forging vs. stock reduction and have not claimed my knives to be superior in performance,... better or best. All I've really said is that it's all subjective.

 

[Tai Goo]

I don't think of myself as a scientist. I am a human and have human cognition and reasoning...

If you guys like to think of me as a scientist though, I don't have any problem with that. You can call it whatever you want. I've been called worse things.

 

[Tai Goo]

If I’ve offended anyone, then I apologize.

I have my own perspective an way of looking at things, but don’t see it as being "objectively" any better or worse than anyone else’s.

I don’t really want to get into a debate over circular thinking vs. linear thinking or Eastern philosophy vs. Western philosophy. The whole east meets west thing is nothing new...

 

[Tai Goo]

I'd say if you are consciously testing, looking at results and refining, its a science....theorize, test, observe, refine, repeat....

By that definition art is also a science,... which is fine by me.

However, art is different than science, or by that definition, I would have to conclude that art is a special kind of science,... and science is a special kind of art...

... Do we really even need to make those kinds of distinctions? If so, it probably has more to do with communication and "concept" than anything else.

 

[Michael Lovett]

If you are just trying random things and hoping for the best, its luck and discovery....lots of "science" started by pure chance, but needed lots of "real science" to refine into something usable. Spilling rubber on a stove and noticing its more flexible is luck and discovery. Testing different rubber mixtures and heats to improve on your luck and discovery is science, IMHO.

A perfect example. Mr Goodyear is the one who spilled the rubber on a stove. Pure accident. However he had no idea what it was good for . Other than making rain Coates more flexible. He died a popper, and a broken man. A very sad tale considering what it led to. It took applied science to put it to good use. And the rest is as they say, is "History". Good Year Tire and Rubber became one of the GREAT AMERICAN SUCCESS STORIES.

My father retired from Good Year after 36 years there in the Gadsden Plant. He worked
in the lab for many years.

I actually have studied metallurgy, anthropology, and psychology in college, and on my own. I do hold a "master of fine arts degree", MFA, which is the highest degree in the field of studio arts. My area of specialization was in "metalsmithing", which you could think of as creative applied science or metallugy if you like. Those things were "part" of my studies in art, and studied separately.


Tie, You had me going. Here I thought you had total disdain for the Science of Metallurgy, and here you are a student of same. And people accuse me of being dry witted! You old sly fox!!!

Mike

 

[Tai Goo]

Mike, I guess it's just where you put the emphasis.

I don't think of myself as a scientist, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant of science or that I don't like science... I'll even accept bladesmithing and knifemaking, as "fringe sciences"... maybe that sounds a little better than pseudoscience... I don't know though,... I like the way the word "pseudoscience" rolls off the tongue.

I think of myself as an artist. However, I can see that the two really aren't much different... They both involve basic human cognition, although the aim of each may be slightly different.

You are half Indian and I am half Chinese. So, we have those peculiar hybrid traits ...

My hammer has a soul,... and a whole bunch of atoms!