Performance in COLD! weather

B

Baumgarden

Joined
Sep 20, 2022
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A recent discussion with a friend about cutting and chopping wood in extremely cold conditions lead me to question what metal, geometry, treatment etc. is advantageous for use in those conditions. I've heard horror stories of axe destruction from hard use in negative degree weather, chipping, cracking and such. I realize there are a lot of external variables in play here like the medium being cut, how long the axe has been in the cold, power of swing etc. but all those being equal...

What combination of metal, geometry, treatment are "best" in the extreme cold?
 
I have heard of people warming axes inside their coat for this reason. If it would cause great hardship to break you axe, I would religiously follow this practice regardless of how good my steel is.
 
I am looking forward to responses here. It is currently negative 24F at my cabin and supposed to be pretty bitter for the next week. I have never chopped wood when it is that cold. I have split spruce and birch rounds with a maul in negative temperatures. I use a machete some during the winter if there are overhanging branches that I feel are better cut than using a saw when snowmachining. Those branches can be birch, spruce, cottonwood or alders. The live birch when near zero is not fun to cut but I have not broken any blades. I have used a GB forest axe and Estwing to limb downed trees close to freezing with no issue (fingers crossed). I will say that the maker of a pricey custom chopper bowie knife I have told me not to chop any frozen wood, so it stays home during winter.
 
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Steels high in nickel and I believe manganese as well perform better in freezing temperatures. Lower amounts of carbon makes a huge difference in terms of cold weather toughness. Anything below 0.6-0.5% carbon IMO would probably be alright in very cold conditions. Above this, without nickel additions in the steel, especially with thinner grinds, you may run into problems.

knifesteelnerds.com

Why Cold Steel Is Brittle - Knife Steel Nerds

How temperature affects the toughness of steel, which steels have better toughness in the cold, and how to heat treat to maximize low temperature toughness.
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com

^This link covers this subject in great depth
 
XJ-linux said:
The ax I bought at Montgomery Ward’s 40 years ago has split hard crap wood down to minus 30 and never missed a beat. No idea what steel or wood. Cost like $20. It’s red.
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Weight, Geometry?

Here's this discussion but concerning knives But an axe has (usually) greater thickness, less variety of material and experiences greater shock loads.

which type of steel will work best in extreme cold weather?

what type of steel should I choose when picking out my knife. I'm going to be living in the arctic. knife will be used for all around survival and I'll have another for processing game. I'm going to be far away from any way to replace the knife so it needs to be a knife that will last. I am...
www.bladeforums.com www.bladeforums.com
 
RedWolf4 said:
Steels high in nickel and I believe manganese as well perform better in freezing temperatures. Lower amounts of carbon makes a huge difference in terms of cold weather toughness. Anything below 0.6-0.5% carbon IMO would probably be alright in very cold conditions. Above this, without nickel additions in the steel, especially with thinner grinds, you may run into problems.

knifesteelnerds.com

Why Cold Steel Is Brittle - Knife Steel Nerds

How temperature affects the toughness of steel, which steels have better toughness in the cold, and how to heat treat to maximize low temperature toughness.
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com

^This link covers this subject in great depth
Click to expand...
That was a great read! and very relevant, I found "tempered martensite embritlement" interesting.
So below .6-.5 with nickle and the article mentions Molybdenum having a possible greater effect with the suggestion for 4340, the question is: who makes a 4340 axe and does the loading difference between the axe and the knife change the recommendation?
 
As far as splitting wood goes, the colder the better. Wood at -40 will split easier than at warmer temperatures. I much prefer splitting when it's cold versus warm for that reason but I don't care to work much below -30 anymore. My only source of heat year round is wood.

With regard to warming an axe by putting it under a coat it will be unpleasant to say the least. An axe taken indoors from very cold temperatures takes a long time to warm enough for the frost to come out.
I can't imagine actually trying to warm one with body heat.
I've also heard of people actually making a fire to warm an axe before use but that's simply not practical for anyone constantly on the move, clearing trails when coming across downed trees, building cubbies when trapping etc. And in extreme cold it would only be a matter of minutes before it's lost what little warmth it might have received.

While it's true that steel can become brittle in extreme cold I believe it's less of a problem or concern than the internet makes it out to be. Modern steels with a proper heat treat aren't subject to the same problems of axes a century or two ago.

My daily use axe rides on my skidoo all winter. Whenever I need it I grab it and put it to work with never a thought about the temperature.

Winter here can start in mid October and sometimes sooner and there's still snow on the ground into May with temperatures dropping to the minus 50's at times and -30's for weeks at a time isn't uncommon.
Using axes in all temperatures is simply normal for us without any thought to doing anything special.
 
cyc79 said:
While it's true that steel can become brittle in extreme cold I believe it's less of a problem or concern than the internet makes it out to be. Modern steels with a proper heat treat aren't subject to the same problems of axes a century or two ago.

My daily use axe rides on my skidoo all winter. Whenever I need it I grab it and put it to work with never a thought about the temperature.
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It is simply a question about optimization not a crusade to point out axe inadequacy. Happens all the time with knifes. Consider it a discussion.

cyc79 said:
Winter here can start in mid October and sometimes sooner and there's still snow on the ground into May with temperatures dropping to the minus 50's at times and -30's for weeks at a time isn't uncommon.
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Why?! just why.
 
Trees cut in early january are the best for firewood, as they'll carry much less water.

I've used my Fiskars in -30°C/-22°F a lot and never had a problem. I know, lots of traditional axe lovers despise them, but they just work 🤷‍♂️
 
Baumgarden said:
That was a great read! and very relevant, I found "tempered martensite embritlement" interesting.
So below .6-.5 with nickle and the article mentions Molybdenum having a possible greater effect with the suggestion for 4340, the question is: who makes a 4340 axe and does the loading difference between the axe and the knife change the recommendation?
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Don't know of any makers using 4340. Lots using 4140 which would be adequate for cold weather use, but not to the same extent as 4340.

cyc79 said:
Winter here can start in mid October and sometimes sooner and there's still snow on the ground into May with temperatures dropping to the minus 50's at times and -30's for weeks at a time isn't uncommon.
Using axes in all temperatures is simply normal for us without any thought to doing anything special.
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You in Nunavut bud? ;)
 
First off, my apologies to you Baumgarden and anyone else if I came across as being critical or judgemental. I was merely trying to point out that
using an axe in cold temperatures is not as much of a worry as is commonly thought by some by showing the temperature extremes in my area. Of course we have much milder temps at times as well throughout the winter. It's not always brutally cold.:)
The majority of people simply don't live in areas of extreme cold. I've read where some people think that an axe should be warmed in temps hovering around just below freezing and I am trying to show that they have nothing to worry about providing their axe has a good heat treatment.

As far as steel composition I have no idea about what steel is better than another. I can only say which axes I have experience with in low temps and the two brands I use regularly is the Iltis Oxhead and the Gransfors Bruks. The Oxheads are the most common by far and are used extensively by trappers, prospectors and people working in the bush in northern Canada.
RedWolf4, no I'm not in Nunavut but it's not uncommon to see very cold temperatures here. I took this screenshot on December first but have edited the exact location as I'd rather the whole world doesn't know where I'm hiding ;):).
I'm currently in a town for Christmas but it's not much warmer here than where I live :eek:
Merry Christmas everyone.
apfJe0el.png
 
I've used 1075 machetes around 2mm thick at 52-55 RC in about -15° F to chop down small ~4" thick trees. For warming the bit you just need to start with some gentle blows in the same spot so the friction of the chopping has a chance to elevate the temperature a little. Most axes on the market are something between 1045-1060
 
cyc79 said:
First off, my apologies to you Baumgarden and anyone else if I came across as being critical or judgemental. I was merely trying to point out that
using an axe in cold temperatures is not as much of a worry as is commonly thought by some by showing the temperature extremes in my area. Of course we have much milder temps at times as well throughout the winter. It's not always brutally cold.:)
The majority of people simply don't live in areas of extreme cold. I've read where some people think that an axe should be warmed in temps hovering around just below freezing and I am trying to show that they have nothing to worry about providing their axe has a good heat treatment.

As far as steel composition I have no idea about what steel is better than another. I can only say which axes I have experience with in low temps and the two brands I use regularly is the Iltis Oxhead and the Gransfors Bruks. The Oxheads are the most common by far and are used extensively by trappers, prospectors and people working in the bush in northern Canada.
RedWolf4, no I'm not in Nunavut but it's not uncommon to see very cold temperatures here. I took this screenshot on December first but have edited the exact location as I'd rather the whole world doesn't know where I'm hiding ;):).
I'm currently in a town for Christmas but it's not much warmer here than where I live :eek:
Merry Christmas everyone.
apfJe0el.png
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Hard to believe, that Vaughan would spend R&D and marketing money on non-existing problem
https://archive.org/details/Vaughan...Fine Tools 1940/page/n7/mode/2up?view=theater
BookReaderImages.php
 
While I do not doubt that it was of some real benefit, I'm of the impression that Vaughan has long had a predilection for novel features and methods, at least in part, as a means of distinguishing their products from the competition. In the start of the catalog you'll see it stated that all of their axes are made using the electric fusion process, which was kind of their solution to gaining the benefits of an inserted bit with the longevity of an all-steel axe and easier (at scale) manufacture compared to the insert method since the constituent components are able to be drop-forged. You'll find the original patent document details this, going so far as to describe it as "simple". Remember that we today are no less swayed by the marketing of yesteryear than were consumers contemporary to these goods' manufacture.

Nevertheless, we do know that many axes used to shatter in extreme cold if not carefully warmed beforehand, but I think much of this can be attributed to steels with more carbon content than actually needed to achieve high hardness being used, and cases of axes with heat treatments that yielded larger grain size than we generally have today. Combine the two with a thin grind in the cheeks supporting the edge and you'd be bound to end up with considerable chipping in extreme cold weather.
 
RedWolf4 said:
Don't know of any makers using 4340. Lots using 4140 which would be adequate for cold weather use, but not to the same extent as 4340.
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Yes, although 4140 specifically lacks the nickel content.
C45 is .4 ni and .1 mo to 4340's 2.0 ni and .3 mo.
Is C45 the closest, regularly produced, axe steel to the 4340 as far as those are concerned?

Some searching here turned up this https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/4130-4340-any-good-for-a-hawk-head.862578/

cyc79 said:
First off, my apologies
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No need, Your real world experience in cold (very cold) environments is always a valuable contribution to any discussion, one that I respect.
cyc79 said:
I'm currently in a town for Christmas but it's not much warmer here than where I live :eek:
Merry Christmas everyone.
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Merry Christmas to you as well, and a Happy New Year
 
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