Performance in COLD! weather

About a dozen years ago I bought a Estwing Campers axe, the long handle one. I remember we were having a spell of cold and I wanted to try it to see how well it would stand up. Overnight the temp hit -41C. I left it outside all night and in the morning used it to split wood for a short time, about a half hour. I simply wanted to see if it would break under those conditions, which it did not. This is something I like to do anytime I get an axe, either new or used, since anything can break through faulty manufacturing and I want to have an idea whether or not I can trust a tool out in the bush.
Of course with the thin bit it's a poor splitter but it did fine with such frozen wood, as I mentioned before.
I don't know what steel Estwing uses but it's definitely tough.
I should mention that our trees here are mostly black spruce and jack pine, with the average tree being 4'' - 6'' so almost anything will work on such small wood.
I suspect things could very well be much different with some of the hardwoods encountered elsewhere, but I have no experience with such wood. The hardest we have is birch.
 
I'd trust a traditional Scandanavian company for an axe/blade/knife in extreme temperatures including Finnish blades/Axes, I'd probably convex the secondary bevel/grind too if lots of chopping was involved with a larger knife. .
 
I'd say -40F qualifies as extreme but I'm not sure the meer sub-zero its been here in the night would meet that standard in this instance. Today out cutting, conditions were what I'd call getting towards ideal - even lower temps. would improve things all the more. (Limbing) Work with the axe in particular, the wood all firmed up like that, a noticeable improvement in comparison to just last week not to mention to cutting in warmer weather, plus the (frozen, snow covered) ground making it easier hauling stems out. These axes of mine always stay out in the barn so remain consistent with the outside ambient conditions and I've never made accommodations in their set-up for cold weather (just how cold is cold, I have to ask it).

These special alloyed steels could have hardly any relevance for axes and would certainly not serve any improvement - to the contrary. They must be made strictly in service of heavy industrial mechanical applications beyond any stresses conceivable that an axe would be subjected to.

I think it is a safe bet that in the hundreds of years steel axes were used and relied on these things got themselves pretty well worked out. After all, it used to be even colder then.
 
Ernest DuBois said:
These special alloyed steels could have hardly any relevance for axes and would certainly not serve any improvement - to the contrary. They must be made strictly in service of heavy industrial mechanical applications beyond any stresses conceivable that an axe would be subjected to.
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To which are you referring to? C45, 4140, or 4340 ...all have made great axes and hawks
Knives are subjected to much less stress (or perhaps just different) and yet have very high performance metals in work, some of which are highly sought after. Maybe 1095 was good enough but the quest continues.

If your take is that it doesn't matter, why stop those to whom it does.
I like metal discussions, I like optimization, I like science, I swing an axe, so naturally I want to talk about scientifically optimizing the axe I am swinging. Now all that aside, I greatly appreciate people like C cyc79 who have great experience in the discussed issue and choose to share it.

Optimizing metal, geometry, treatments was the original question. So far I see some real world examples of cold weather usage given, a few "it doesn't matter", a recommendation not to run the grinds to thin(geometry) and an article giving test data on several different metals with the suggestion for treatment and chemical composition that achieved the best results. I'm impressed, but not completely satisfied (never am). There is always room to improve.

My Great-Grandfather swung an axe in the North country, I'd like to travel back in time and give him a nice 4340 Felling axe on a 30" American hickory handle. I'm sure he'd love it.
 
Baumgarden said:
To which are you referring to? C45, 4140, or 4340 ...all have made great axes and hawks
Knives are subjected to much less stress (or perhaps just different) and yet have very high performance metals in work, some of which are highly sought after. Maybe 1095 was good enough but the quest continues.

If your take is that it doesn't matter, why stop those to whom it does.
I like metal discussions, I like optimization, I like science, I swing an axe, so naturally I want to talk about scientifically optimizing the axe I am swinging. Now all that aside, I greatly appreciate people like C cyc79 who have great experience in the discussed issue and choose to share it.

Optimizing metal, geometry, treatments was the original question. So far I see some real world examples of cold weather usage given, a few "it doesn't matter", a recommendation not to run the grinds to thin(geometry) and an article giving test data on several different metals with the suggestion for treatment and chemical composition that achieved the best results. I'm impressed, but not completely satisfied (never am). There is always room to improve.

My Great-Grandfather swung an axe in the North country, I'd like to travel back in time and give him a nice 4340 Felling axe on a 30" American hickory handle. I'm sure he'd love it.
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I believe he was referring to 4140 and 4340 as they are not typically used for cutting tools due to their low carbon content. 4140 only achieves 54-59 as-quenched and then has to be tempered back at least a few points. 4340 only hits about 55 RC as-quenched. In general, attaining higher hardness is more important than attaining extreme cold weather resistance for the majority of axes, and rather than using exotic alloys you can typically get away with using plain conventional axe steels of good heat treatment. If you needed more cold toughness just heat treating plain steels softer into that same low hardness range would work fine in all but the most extreme cases. Those steels were developed not for edged tool use, but for industrial applications where much higher loads were used. Their use cases are simply outside the relevant range of axes from what I can see. Something like L6 would probably be a better choice if looking for a nickel-containing steel.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
would work fine
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Not the question nor is their an argument being made against such.

I owe some an apology, my question may have not been clear, this is not an effort to say your axes you have (or sell) are not good enough. It's a question about what Metal, Geometry and treatments are optimal.

Here maybe this will help:

PSA: Your axes is good enough, don't go rushing out to buy a new one. Your fine, life is good, chop onwards and upwards.
PSA2: Do not ask mfg to start producing axes with metals that aren't already being done. There is only one type applicable.

I think the article (post #4) that was linked earlier from Knife Steel Nerds, that went into great depth on how metals react to temperature, grain size and DBTT was the information that answers most of the questions...for knives. I do realize that axes have quite a bit more metal behind that edge and the edge is not as thin (usually) and that we may be talking about theoretical applications and not practical ones. Also, mfg cost and profit margins are not a foreign concept to me and I realize that the optimal combination may not be in production. There are, or at least have been, craftsmen who have produced a 4340 axe to great acceptance.
 
Baumgarden said:
Not the question nor is their an argument being made against such.

I owe some an apology, my question may have not been clear, this is not an effort to say your axes you have (or sell) are not good enough. It's a question about what Metal, Geometry and treatments are optimal.

Here maybe this will help:

PSA: Your axes is good enough, don't go rushing out to buy a new one. Your fine, life is good, chop onwards and upwards.
PSA2: Do not ask mfg to start producing axes with metals that aren't already being done. There is only one type applicable.

I think the article (post #4) that was linked earlier from Knife Steel Nerds, that went into great depth on how metals react to temperature, grain size and DBTT was the information that answers most of the questions...for knives. I do realize that axes have quite a bit more metal behind that edge and the edge is not as thin (usually) and that we may be talking about theoretical applications and not practical ones. Also, mfg cost and profit margins are not a foreign concept to me and I realize that the optimal combination may not be in production. There are, or at least have been, craftsmen who have produced a 4340 axe to great acceptance.
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Who made a 4340 axe exactly? I think I may have missed where you shared this information. I think you missed where I specifically said that if choosing a specialized steel L6 would be better than 4340, which directly answers your question. There's a lot of snark coming through in this response, which I'm not sure is intended or not, but it sure reads that way.
 
I don’t know of any maker using 4340 or 4140 steel for making axes.

I know that a fellow forum member, ipt is selling online quality 4145 cast axes on the big river syte as mapsyst, and also through the axeandadze.com and axsessive.com online stores. He grinds, heat treats and hafts the axes. They are mostly traditional European bearded axes, though some are massive enough to do some serious splitting as well. He also has a traditional Finnish style axe.

The link below compares 4145 to 4340 steel:

SAE-AISI 4145 Steel vs. SAE-AISI 4340 Steel :: MakeItFrom.com

www.makeitfrom.com www.makeitfrom.com

Finally , I am not sure how much does steel composition help in reducing brittlenes at cold temperatures, but I would listen to what FortyTwoBlades says.
 
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Don't misread my post, I've no desire for bickering, Life its to short for that nonsense. If you are offended, all apologies.

L6 was previously mentioned in the article.
Do a search you'll find 4340 mentioned as being a great axe (and knife) steel for the characteristics it possess.

I wil move my question over to a blacksmithing forum. The interest does not seem to be here.
 
Part of the problem is that you're essentially asking "which is heavier, a pound of bricks or a pound of feathers?" in that when all other factors are ignored as potential variables, any axe that isn't damaged by normal use in the conditions you describe is sufficient for the task, and making it any more cold-resistant is like having a supercharged hotrod being driven on public roads. It may be able to go very fast, but it never gets the opportunity to show that off if you're using it to run errands in because the use conditions are well below its peak thresholds. With a low hardness axe you'll run into issues of edge stability in thin geometries, and the softer you run the wider the minimum supported angle becomes and the lower your cutting performance as a result.

4340 or 4140 can achieve only "acceptable" hardness when fully quenched and tempered, most likely settling around 52-55 RC which is about as hard as a "hard" machete of good quality. While much depends on the specific steel and heat treatment, you were looking for performance, which I--perhaps falsely--presumed included factors like being able to accept thinner edge geometries without becoming overly delicate. In order for thinner edges to hold up, especially on frozen targets, you're going to want higher hardness out of a steel that remains tough at those ranges. L6 would allow you to hit 58 RC without issue while having nickel for toughness and further alloying elements that assist in achieving fine grain and sufficient depth of hardening, all in all giving you excellent toughness despite being capable of supporting thin geometries.

Efficiency and resiliency are usually diametrically opposed to one another so for the highest performance you'd still run some risk of damage in extreme cold, but it's a matter of how much resiliency or "insurance factor" you are willing to sacrifice for the sake of increased task efficiency.

The whole thread so far makes me think of all the people who drop $500 on a timbersports racing axe then try to use it for regular work and blow the edge out because it's so finely tuned and not made for general use. What is "best" is all in what metrics you judge it by. Ask yourself CAREFULLY what yours are in this context.
 
Baumgarden said:
why?
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It is just my opinion and suggestion, but FortyTwoBlades has repeatedly shown he is knowledgeable and his advice proved many times helpful for me. Your opinion may vary and that,s fine.
Some people here don’t like him and that’s fine too.
His advice was practical, given the lack of easily obtainable 4340 steel axes.
Since they are not widely available, they are not widely used either and there is not much, if at all, head to head comparison of the performance of 4340 vs simple carbon steel axes at freezing temperatures.
If you an get a 4340 steel axe and test it in parallel to a carbon steel axe, maybe you could post your test results.
That would be helpful for the whole community.
Good luck with the blacksmithsforum.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Part of the problem is that you're essentially asking "which is heavier, a pound of bricks or a pound of feathers?"
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You are incorrect, simply what makes the temperature dependent optimal combinations. You have read into the question beyond it's intentions.

FortyTwoBlades said:
340 or 4140 can achieve only "acceptable" hardness when fully quenched and tempered, most likely settling around 52-55 RC which is about as hard as a "hard" machete of good quality. While much depends on the specific steel and heat treatment, you were looking for performance, which I--perhaps falsely--presumed included factors like being able to accept thinner edge geometries without becoming overly delicate. In order for thinner edges to hold up, especially on frozen targets, you're going to want higher hardness out of a steel that remains tough at those ranges. L6 would allow you to hit 58 RC without issue while having nickel for toughness and further alloying elements that assist in achieving fine grain and sufficient depth of hardening, all in all giving you excellent toughness despite being capable of supporting thin geometries.
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this is acceptable, thank you

FortyTwoBlades said:
The whole thread so far makes me think of all the people who drop $500 on a timbersports racing axe then try to use it for regular work and blow the edge out because it's so finely tuned and not made for general use. What is "best" is all in what metrics you judge it by. Ask yourself CAREFULLY what yours are in this context.
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you ended how you started, you really need to quit this line of flawed logic. I have already acknowledged the question is better suited for another audience namely blacksmiths or metallurgists not axe resellers.

Fortytwo you are young have much to learn.
 
cyc79 said:
About a dozen years ago I bought a Estwing Campers axe, the long handle one. I remember we were having a spell of cold and I wanted to try it to see how well it would stand up. Overnight the temp hit -41C. I left it outside all night and in the morning used it to split wood for a short time, about a half hour. I simply wanted to see if it would break under those conditions, which it did not.
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I too live in a similar climate (i'm not hiding from anyone so here: 64.73715° N, -156.93066° E :)).

There's plenty of broken Eswings around (i likes the remnants,make for some nice bottom-tooling at the forge:)),but not from the cold*.

As 42 says it's largely a hypothetical problem as the tool warms up rapidly from use. We had this discussion before,more than once,and the consensus was that given a modicum of care the issue is avoided easier by just paying attention to what you're doing vs seeking some Unobtainium as head material.

There's more danger the further South you go as the species get harder,and Square_peg had always wisely warned about them Doug fir knots on a cold morning...

But South or North it'd be an accident that would likely chip your axe,like here in a desperate situation if you whack the edge into that sno-go ski carbide ,why you're likely to bugger up that blade no matter what the T outside!:)

So if you just use your head and take care with where and what and how you aim that axe it'd probably work better than the fanciest of alloys.

* i'm sure that if you Wanted to you can slam an Estwing flat enough on a cold-enough day to fracture it,however all breaks i've ever seen were from the vapor trapped and corroding the thin metal of the handle at juncture with shank.
Pi$$ poor design,that,with all the force concentrating there as well,but the worst about them things is how hard the handle rubber gets in the cold. Lethal-slick in certain mitten/glove palm material...
 
Titanium axe head.


lFiOYI5.jpg
 
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