Philosophical Question: Perfection vs Production

Col Defender

Col Defender

Joined
Nov 11, 2011
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Hi! This thread is inspired by a thought provoking critique of two of Nic's knives going now in Shop Talk.

Nic makes some pretty nice knives for a relative newbie. One of the responders on his thread though suggested he slow down and try for a "very good" or "perfect" knife, even if it took a year to do so. No doubt the same comments would apply to what I do and it has caused me to consider whether I am going about this the wrong way.

I started something over a year ago and have about 32 completed knives (ones that I count, that is). By my estimate, they are pretty good for a newbie and getting better. But they are not perfect. I would love to be able to make a perfect knife and perhaps some day I may come close. But what happened with me a year ago is that a hunting buddy liked a small skinner I made and wanted to buy it. That started my hobby on the road to becoming a small business which is making a number of folks around here happy, covering all my costs, and providing a modest profit besides. Mostly I work from orders so as soon as a knife is done it is gone. My customers think my knives are really good whereas the professionals on this forum would appropriately have a different perspective.

My question is, is it OK to do what I do - produce several knives a month for sale (and they all get sold) while trying to make each one better than the one which preceded it? Is there room in the craft for more than one approach? And just so there's no doubt about it, mediocrity is not a plan or goal here - I want my knives to be the very best I can possibly make but I know that may take a while to achieve.

Thoughts?
 
You ask a question that is not easily answered. What your contemplating is not a 'how to' really, it's more of question about an individual's character.
Some individuals will make 1 knife that is absolutely perfect and it take them a year and be fine with it. Others like the feel of accomplishment for each knife.
Perfection is a hard thing to nail down, much like why things are funny. It depends on the person and the context. A perfect knife to me is much much different than one to Stacy or Nick Wheeler. So what it comes down to is what are your standards and where do they fall? Each knife I create I strive to create better than the last. At some point I will reach my magnum opus and know I will never create anything better then that, some may match it, but none will surpass it. Which I'm fine with and most will, at some point, reach this point. So my suggestion is to learn more and apply it for each knife, perfection comes slowly and not without error.
But do I think creating 20 mediocre knives is good? No. Nor do I think making 1 in that time is a good method. I think doing 5 slowly is much better than the other two alternatives. Of course, these are my thoughts. You have to remember that each knife you put out has a bit of your heart, soul, sweat, and blood in it and they are a representation of your brand. Maybe this will help you with this question, maybe not. Cheers mate.
Joe
Halcyon Forge
 
Do what makes you happy. When I started I did the same,made a lot of inexpensive fixed blades and learned along the way.
Now I would rather make fewer knives per year and make them to the best of my ability.
 
I guess it depends on a few things. If you enjoy making quick and dirty knives then its not a problem. However, if you want to challenge yourself to make more difficult knives, to learn new skills, and to expand your customer base to higher end buyers, then I believe that you should focus on quality over quantity.

Personally, for the most part I am making knives that still challenge my skills. This ends up taking more time, causing the fit and finish to be better, and the knives can fetch a higher asking price.

I don't think I'll ever make a "perfect knife" but I strive to make each knife to the best of my abilities. I take pride in my work, and want to put my name on a good quailty knife.

All that said, there are different levels of collectors and users of knives out there. If you find a niche and are happy making a certain type of knife, then what more can you ask for?
 
I think that you should keep on doing what pleases you; perfection is a mark one hits over time, practice, and experience. If your knives sell, please your customers, and please you, I see no reason to alter what you are doing. My guess is that with each one, you improve... And so, you are already on the slow but steady road to perfection (if there even is such a thing).
 
Pursuit of perfection vs productivity is partially dependent on if you're a hobbyist having fun or are trying to earn a living.

It is my opinion that when you sell something, it needs to be worth what you're selling it for. An ugly knife with poor heat treat should not sell for more than a good walmart knife. People deserve value for their money.

There is a place for less-than-perfect but good functional knives just like there is a place for very expensive high end knives. If you sink 10 times more time into a knife trying to make it perfect and nobody can justify paying you 10 times more for it, you're spending your time in a non-profitable way, which is important if you have a family to feed. If you're a hobbyist that's another story.
 
here's my take on this, it all depends on what you want and what your customers want... are you happy with what you are selling? IE: are you proud to put your mark on each one and have people see it as a reflection of your work? then GREAT! for me, personl pride is a big part of it because it will give you satisfaction in what you are doing. Are your customers happy with what you are selling them? that's really a big part of it as well because if nothing else, they are the one that paid the money for it. Also the more people like what you do and are happy with it, the more customers you will get returning and telling their friends about what you do... in turn bringing more business by word of mouth. Bonus if it's paying for itself... if you are trying to improve and put that money back into what you are doing to constantly get better materials and equipment then awesome. Someday you might be a maker that nobody ever criticizes... best of luck on that! I guarantee that no matter how good you ever get there will be a few that call your work junk for one reason or another and you're just gonna have to deal with that... pride in your product sometimes requires a thick skin. To add to that most people that will call your work down have never put a file to a piece of steel and wisely spend their time criticizing those who do. Most makers have an understanding that everyone likes something different and that the work that goes into whatever someone else does means a lot to them and the only good input is positive input unless otherwise asked.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a rant there, all that is to say that knife making is a personal thing between you and the knife. Selling is a personal thing between you and the buyer... who gives one sweet S#!T what someone who isn't or won't be a customer of your knives thinks? they aren't your target market anyway and likely never will be. As long as you and your customers are happy, cest la vie! Haters gonna Hate

caveat to this is if you make junk knives expect they won't be received or sell well I guess.
 
rustyrazor said:
here's my take on this, it all depends on what you want and what your customers want... are you happy with what you are selling? IE: are you proud to put your mark on each one and have people see it as a reflection of your work? then GREAT! for me, personl pride is a big part of it because it will give you satisfaction in what you are doing. Are your customers happy with what you are selling them? that's really a big part of it as well because if nothing else, they are the one that paid the money for it. Also the more people like what you do and are happy with it, the more customers you will get returning and telling their friends about what you do... in turn bringing more business by word of mouth. Bonus if it's paying for itself... if you are trying to improve and put that money back into what you are doing to constantly get better materials and equipment then awesome. Someday you might be a maker that nobody ever criticizes... best of luck on that! I guarantee that no matter how good you ever get there will be a few that call your work junk for one reason or another and you're just gonna have to deal with that... pride in your product sometimes requires a thick skin. To add to that most people that will call your work down have never put a file to a piece of steel and wisely spend their time criticizing those who do. Most makers have an understanding that everyone likes something different and that the work that goes into whatever someone else does means a lot to them and the only good input is positive input unless otherwise asked.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a rant there, all that is to say that knife making is a personal thing between you and the knife. Selling is a personal thing between you and the buyer... who gives one sweet S#!T what someone who isn't or won't be a customer of your knives thinks? they aren't your target market anyway and likely never will be. As long as you and your customers are happy, cest la vie! Haters gonna Hate

caveat to this is if you make junk knives expect they won't be received or sell well I guess.
Click to expand...

Well put!
 
Aias said:
I think that you should keep on doing what pleases you; perfection is a mark one hits over time, practice, and experience. If your knives sell, please your customers, and please you, I see no reason to alter what you are doing. My guess is that with each one, you improve... And so, you are already on the slow but steady road to perfection (if there even is such a thing).
Click to expand...

Wow - so many GOOD answers here and this by Aias says it all very well. Yes I am improving and yes my customers are pleased (even if they are local folks who will never see BF.) And I am REALLY grateful to my customers, especially the repeat customers, who allow me to keep doing this. Right now I have a repeat customer who wants me to make two large Damascus hunters, with jimping, finger grooves, a secondary bevel, and a brass guard; Except for jimping I have never done these extras and he is not only allowing me all the time I want, he even told me to make a third one from 1084 (to practice the new stuff on something less expensive in case I screw it up - and he will buy that one too.) These may be the knives on which I pursue perfection, even realizing that they too will fall short. And these I work on just a little at a time in between all the others so when I get to them I can really focus on detail.

So yes, my techniques are improving and I am finding opportunities to add entirely new features to what I do.

Thanks all, for the positive encouragement.
 
Col Defender said:
Hi! This thread is inspired by a thought provoking critique of two of Nic's knives going now in Shop Talk.

Nic makes some pretty nice knives for a relative newbie. One of the responders on his thread though suggested he slow down and try for a "very good" or "perfect" knife, even if it took a year to do so. No doubt the same comments would apply to what I do and it has caused me to consider whether I am going about this the wrong way.

I started something over a year ago and have about 32 completed knives (ones that I count, that is). By my estimate, they are pretty good for a newbie and getting better. But they are not perfect. I would love to be able to make a perfect knife and perhaps some day I may come close. But what happened with me a year ago is that a hunting buddy liked a small skinner I made and wanted to buy it. That started my hobby on the road to becoming a small business which is making a number of folks around here happy, covering all my costs, and providing a modest profit besides. Mostly I work from orders so as soon as a knife is done it is gone. My customers think my knives are really good whereas the professionals on this forum would appropriately have a different perspective.

My question is, is it OK to do what I do - produce several knives a month for sale (and they all get sold) while trying to make each one better than the one which preceded it? Is there room in the craft for more than one approach? And just so there's no doubt about it, mediocrity is not a plan or goal here - I want my knives to be the very best I can possibly make but I know that may take a while to achieve.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...



I think whoever posted the "perfect" comment in the other thread used the term loosely. :) The gist of the comment was to strive for perfection in what you do. As most people will agree, perfection is a relative and subjective concept. Nobody starts at "perfect". We all start at "newbie". Naturally, we all start with a roughly similar trajectory regardless of style or technique. We start not knowing and inexperienced then gain the knowledge and technique as we progress. Just because a person or group of people are regarded as doing high level work doesn't mean that this is the standard by which all others should be judged. As others have mentioned, knifemaking is an expression of the makers spirit and vision. Our goals are often very different. I think the work ethic and the standard to which we hold ourselves is evident in the work we do. We all go through the mediocre level while we're learning. Some people are ok with this as a place to level off and coast. Others continue to use each stage they progress to as a step to a higher level and persist in an upward trajectory. Some folks, typically younger makers, just have a lot of energy and have trouble settling down and focusing.

The question of quality vs quantity is a false choice. While we are learning the craft it takes a long time to get things done. We struggle with choices, technique and a host of other things. But once we have the muscle memory and the technique flows more naturally, we can do the same level of work in much less time. This is how you build production speed without sacrificing quality. Stopping your fit and finish at a lower level and claiming "production" is an excuse in my opinion. If you can do better but your customer base is looking for a more quickly made "style" then I think satisfying your customers cannot be faulted. But what was eluded to in the other post had more to do with having an inner determination and drive to do the very best you can do with the resources available to you, not the least of which is your brain. Listen, not everybody is a natural artist. Maybe a person's talents lie in other areas. It's all good. But whatever talent you have for this, do the best YOU can, not the best Nick Wheeler can do. And nobody should give much thought to people who criticize for sport. Do what makes you happy as long as your customers are getting a good product and good value for their money.

The comments on the knives posted in the other thread were all comments having to do with errors that are easily avoidable and are not dependent on having expensive machinery. It comes back to the idea of setting standards for YOURSELF and not progressing past a task until you are satisfied that it was done to the best of your ability. You should be your own critic and inspector. The other poster is doing fine work but techniques to avoid the flaws that were showing in knives 21 & 22 should have been figured out by knives 5 & 6. We are all here to support and encourage each other. That's all that was meant by the comment.
 
i4Marc said:
I think whoever posted the "perfect" comment in the other thread used the term loosely. :) The gist of the comment was to strive for perfection in what you do. As most people will agree, perfection is a relative and subjective concept. Nobody starts at "perfect". We all start at "newbie". Naturally, we all start with a roughly similar trajectory regardless of style or technique. We start not knowing and inexperienced then gain the knowledge and technique as we progress. Just because a person or group of people are regarded as doing high level work doesn't mean that this is the standard by which all others should be judged. As others have mentioned, knifemaking is an expression of the makers spirit and vision. Our goals are often very different. I think the work ethic and the standard to which we hold ourselves is evident in the work we do. We all go through the mediocre level while we're learning. Some people are ok with this as a place to level off and coast. Others continue to use each stage they progress to as a step to a higher level and persist in an upward trajectory. Some folks, typically younger makers, just have a lot of energy and have trouble settling down and focusing.

The question of quality vs quantity is a false choice. While we are learning the craft it takes a long time to get things done. We struggle with choices, technique and a host of other things. But once we have the muscle memory and the technique flows more naturally, we can do the same level of work in much less time. This is how you build production speed without sacrificing quality. Stopping your fit and finish at a lower level and claiming "production" is an excuse in my opinion. If you can do better but your customer base is looking for a more quickly made "style" then I think satisfying your customers cannot be faulted. But what was eluded to in the other post had more to do with having an inner determination and drive to do the very best you can do with the resources available to you, not the least of which is your brain. Listen, not everybody is a natural artist. Maybe a person's talents lie in other areas. It's all good. But whatever talent you have for this, do the best YOU can, not the best Nick Wheeler can do. And nobody should give much thought to people who criticize for sport. Do what makes you happy as long as your customers are getting a good product and good value for their money.

The comments on the knives posted in the other thread were all comments having to do with errors that are easily avoidable and are not dependent on having expensive machinery. It comes back to the idea of setting standards for YOURSELF and not progressing past a task until you are satisfied that it was done to the best of your ability. You should be your own critic and inspector. The other poster is doing fine work but techniques to avoid the flaws that were showing in knives 21 & 22 should have been figured out by knives 5 & 6. We are all here to support and encourage each other. That's all that was meant by the comment.
Click to expand...

Very well said here.

As a new maker, I am amazed at what I am able to see now, in just 8 months pursuing knife making.
It's like I was going through life half blind and not realizing it, and now I got a really good set of glasses. Knives just don't look the same to me.
The knives I thought were nice all through my life tend to look like junk now to me. (Never was exposed to any good work).
In my short experience making, I find that once I get a grip on one aspect of the knife, two more pop up that I just didn't see or understand before.
It's a fun journey. I am really enjoying it, and that is good.

Keep making knives!
 
IMHO

Don't try to control things you've no control over. If you happy/contend with the quality(form & function) of your work/products at current point in time, perhaps you just taken care the part you've control over. If 80% of users assessed your definition of quality meet or beyond their expectation, congratulation you did well on the part you don't have control over (of course, you can influence but never control).

Point in time - 'Quality' is vastly different than 'best' and or 'could be better'. Improvement is good however not worth it, if striving for 'best' at a very costly diminishing return for investment. Sure, we naturally want to find out whether we are capable to get to that elite level or not - oh why not do that one or twice but don't do that in commercial production. Sometime you get better quality(to certain level) by repetition/experience without additional investment.

Take a foresight stab at 5 years from now. Will you still be happy with your today 'quality'? Perhaps pure integrity is the timeless force ensure your future happiness.
 
Do exactly what you want, do not let others drive your mission if you are happy;)
 
As was touched on before, look at your market. You didn't mention what you're selling your knifes for, but I'm sure it's a reasonable cost, and not a $500 skinner like some folks can sell. Would your customers wish to pay $300+ for a skinner that is close to "perfection"? OR - are they much happier with a good functional $50 to $100 skinner? There is a place for each type of knife, just a matter of determining what your customer base wishes.

Ken H>
 
I agree with Ken. If you don't have a customer base that's willing to pay $500 for a knife, then you shouldn't make them. If your customer base is mainly looking in the $100 range then that's what you need to make. I'm in the $85-$150 range. I feel like what I make is great quality for that price. I've seen lesser quality knives selling for more and better for less. I strive to make each knife to the best of my ability. I would love to make $1000 knives but, who's gonna buy one from a guy they've never heard of? I know I'm at the bottom end of the handmade knife market and I'm good with that. I feel good about all the knives I sell and know that as my reputation builds I will start climbing the ladder. Just remember. Each knife you make is advertisement, good or bad.
 
Matt R said:
I agree with Ken. If you don't have a customer base that's willing to pay $500 for a knife, then you shouldn't make them. If your customer base is mainly looking in the $100 range then that's what you need to make. I'm in the $85-$150 range. I feel like what I make is great quality for that price. I've seen lesser quality knives selling for more and better for less. I strive to make each knife to the best of my ability. I would love to make $1000 knives but, who's gonna buy one from a guy they've never heard of? I know I'm at the bottom end of the handmade knife market and I'm good with that. I feel good about all the knives I sell and know that as my reputation builds I will start climbing the ladder. Just remember. Each knife you make is advertisement, good or bad.
Click to expand...
I like this thought! My market is comfortable in the $85 to $150. Working on two Damascus hunters now that I will probably price at $200.
 
I personally don't see any point in trying to sell a handmade knife that isn't any better than a cheap mass produced knife. Realistically, a mass produced knife can be pretty good for a very low price so you've got to really bring something special or there is no value. When I first got into knifemaking, Johnny Stout told me that if I made a quality product and offered it for a fair price, the market would find me. I had my doubts but, I have focused on making the best knives I possibly can and he was right; my books are six month out and getting longer. If you focus on making every knife the absolute best you can, you will get faster at producing higher quality and your standards will continue to rise. Even if you want to be a "production" guy, you really should focus on making a few models to the absolute highest standards but, with less options.

Bob
 
Bob, I don't think anyone is saying just "toss a knife together" for a lower price. I think the idea is to make as good a knife as you can. I know some of the knives I've made are not perfect cosmetic wise, but they ARE good from a steel/HT so will (should) do the job better than any knife off the shelf of any big box store. I just keep trying get my knives better each time. Unlike most of ya'll, I'm not really trying to sell knives, but just enjoy making them, and they seem to just disappear - either as gifts or somebody will see it and want to buy it.

There are folks who simply will not even consider paying $500 for a skinner or folder, either due to financial reasons or don't understand the joy of owning a truly custom piece of art.

Ken H>
 
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