Philosophical Question: Perfection vs Production

I agree R.B.. Production level knives don't need to skimp on fit and finish. You meet the price point by limiting options and higher grade appointments. Full custom or production shouldn't matter. Do YOUR best, not some theoretical ideal of "best".


How many of you have tackled a project you didn't think you could handle like a plumbing job or tearing out and remodeling a kitchen? How many of you were not great students but were driven to do better by a parent, teacher or guidance counselor? The point is that we do not understand fully our own potential. No, we don't have time for haters who just like to criticize. But we should also not give much consideration to those who are too quick to tell us "just do what makes you happy even if it is substandard". Sometimes it is the thing we want to hear when we face challenges but it is not necessarily what we need to hear. We need people who are willing to tell the truth even if it hurts our feelings a bit so that we can break through our comfort zones and reach new heights. And usually the only part that hurts a little is just admitting we didn't give ourselves enough credit. The fact that Nic. is a gal is irrelevant. There are ladies among our ranks who are mastersmiths. They didn't get there with people telling them, "oh that's good enough". Knifemaking doesn't require a lot of strength. It only takes the will to do it and some basic tools. If she cares enough about trying to improve, which she seems to, then we should care enough about her to give honest criticism designed to develop her into the best maker she can be. Leave it up to her how she chooses to apply those skills.
 
It can be really difficult to have a truly critical eye for your own work- it's thrilling to be able to make a usable knife at all, especially a forged one, that you kind of fall in love with the first ones you make, or feel about them like you do about your kids.
Best cure if your thing is hunting knives is to go into a sporting goods store and look at what you can get for a buck and a half- a while back, Benchmade had a simple Snody (boss?) for less than that...is your knife as good as a Snody? As clean, as well heat treated? Assembled as well? Good, sturdy well made sheath? It can be humbling, it was for me.
If you look at and appreciate really good knives, though, you can't help but keep improving.
The really big boosts in quality, for me, have come from having sculptors, jewelers, chefs, and especially expert bladesmiths look at my work and take it apart.
You can't make other peoples' minds up for them, though. People love handmade stuff, and will often treasure knives that I know at a glance aren't that great.
 
Hi guys! Neat thread, sorry to stiff up controversy:). And yea, like John said, I'm a lady knife maker, not too many. I have enjoyed reading the replies. I strive to do better and better with each knife and feel like I'm improving with each and every knife I make. I have given many knives away and even sold a couple, and people have been very happy with them. I would love to make a perfect knife, and someday will, but for now I love being able to get criticism from others and learn. I don't rush through knives, I take lots of time, but being pretty new, I screw up and sometimes just because of a lack of knowledge.
Thanks guys
 
I have always found the slow way is the fast way. What might take me longer to do in one part of the process, will in fact pay off in the future. I come from the custom automotive paint world. If you want a show quality finish it starts from the bottom up. Time spent in good prep makes your finish that much better and saves you actual time.

So, I work slow...as fast as I can.
 
Everybody will find their own way. You can encourage people to improve themselves but it will only happen when THEY are ready to improve. That being said, I don't see how you can choose what someone else's final goal should be(not to be confused with general/basic fit and finish within the techniques you are currently using... if that makes sense). It is perfectly fine to "settle". Some folks see that as a bad word... I don't. Look up synonyms for it. They are all positive. I have no intention of making knives with perfect satin/mirror finishes and exotic wood handles. It could easily be said that my knives aren't fully finished but I beg to differ. I have just settled into my chosen look/style. I suppose I could spend a year making knives for the ABS Journeyman test. They would look nothing like my knives and I wouldn't sell them or post them on my site. It is simply not my cup of tea.

I am babbling now... to address the thread title...

Why is there necessarily a difference between perfection and production?
 
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Don't cheat, don't lie. If it sells, your onto something. If you enjoy what you do, thats even better.

Fred
 
Is it the opinion of some of you that everybody should just do what they do as long as they are happy and that nobody's work should be scrutinized? Do you not analyze your own work? Is it unacceptable for others to compare the quality of one maker's work to another maker's, particularly those at similar development levels? Do you feel that people at the lower levels shouldn't be challenged and encouraged to do higher level work simply because they are happy where they are now? Don't you think they can be even happier when shown the path to achieving more advanced skills? I know how I feel about it. What are your thoughts?
 
i4Marc said:
Is it the opinion of some of you that everybody should just do what they do as long as they are happy and that nobody's work should be scrutinized? Do you not analyze your own work? Is it unacceptable for others to compare the quality of one maker's work to another maker's, particularly those at similar development levels? Do you feel that people at the lower levels shouldn't be challenged and encouraged to do higher level work simply because they are happy where they are now? Don't you think they can be even happier when shown the path to achieving more advanced skills? I know how I feel about it. What are your thoughts?
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I can see both sides, but I, like you, like to grow and improve. Is there a cost trade off? Maybe, maybe not.
An example: When I was in my 20s I had a window cleaning business. One of my first house when I first started out was a 3 story on a steep hillside. It took me and my partner two full days to clean the windows in that house.
About 5 years later it was one of the last houses I did before I went on to other things. It took me 4 hours by myself, and I did a better job.
I got paid the same both times.
 
There is a big difference between doing something a certain way because you want to do it that way and doing it that way because it's the only way you know how to do it. If you have the skills and know-how to make a period correct katana but you prefer to make roughly forged, cord wrapped handled knives for local gun shows that is a very different thing than making amateurish lawnmower blade knives because those are the only skills you've acquired.


There is room for everybody. First you have to determine if a person has a desire to improve. If not, I don't advocate for dragging them to make improvements. Let them be. But if someone wants to improve, don't coddle them. If their goal is to one day be able to do high level work then your critique of their work should be in line with helping them achieve those standards. Teach them everything they can absorb and let them decide how to apply it.

This gets back to quality vs production. It's not an either/or choice. You don't see knives on store shelves at any price point that look like they were made in someone's back yard. You can do clean precise work, by hand, and still meet modest production numbers. Having the skills (and proper tools) to do clean work allows the maker to choose where they can minimize cost without adversely affecting quality.
 
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sorry i4Mark, i havent bothered to search this but do you make knives? not trying to be critical but im just asking as it says registered user and im curious of where your opinions stem from... some i agree with, while some not as much.
 
rustyrazor,

You are well within your rights to ask such a question. I am a maker. I posted a couple of knives in another thread yesterday and I have posted a number of other knives over the last two years.

You don't need to agree with me on all points. My opinions are my own and I hope I'm not giving the impression that everybody should think as I do. This is a discussion, an exchange of opinions. My own point of view comes from my own hunger to learn and improve and the standards I impose upon myself. But it also comes from the fact that I have a teaching spirit. I am not a teacher by trade but I enjoy helping people and passing on what little I know to others who may share a similar interest. I never approach a critique or opinion of others' works from a place of malice or superiority. I just know how I feel about my own work when I improve and I try to help others when I can. My work is far from perfect. I do not have the knowledge base that many others have. But I do the best I can at each stage of my journey.
 
In my shop its the mating of ability with efficiency. Some skills are more valuable than others, you'll find out which is which when you market what you make. What i'm learning now, 17 years in, is not what I was learning in 1998. Some skills learned along the way, I use daily. Some I rarely use.

In a discussion like this there will be a different discussion going on among people who make a living doing this and those that make knives to relax and enjoy themselves. Spend the day at a full time makers shop and then visit a hobbyist makers shop. Different worlds.
I've done both and much prefer making knives for the sheer joy of it where I can use all the skills I've learned over the years.

Fred
 
I'm new around these parts but what the heck. Everyone who gets into knifemaking has something that attracted them towards the craft. Most everyone has a favorite style of knife and usually more than one. There will always be a style that will come naturally to a new maker that they will enjoy making and as they make knives in that style they will usually add their own flavor to it to make it theirs. A new maker should do what comes natural to them in the beginning as far as style while they learn the basics and improve on them knife by knife concentrating first on function. Once they are doing well with a couple of those styles then begin to embellish a little here and there on them and add another style into the mix. A new maker should also find one or two makers or someone knife savvy who they can trust for an honest & constructive critique of their work. Someone they can show their work to in person and have an open discussion with for serious critiques.
Being originally from Arkansas I learned forging from one of the best many years ago in the mountains of north Arkansas and when I went to his shop I always took something for him to look at and give me feedback on. And I always left with something to think about. Knifemaking is a precept thing. Always build on what you do and learn-learn-learn.
 
I think some people may get the wrong idea about some of the things I said. When I stress doing the best you can and striving for perfection and statements to that effect, I'm not talking about styles or production or features. I mean, if you have a simple hunter blade with two slab scales there are some BASIC things you should do with that knife. Make sure your plunge lines are symmetrical and clean. Make sure your handle slabs are the same thickness and shape on both sides. Make sure your bevels are the same height and distance for the edge on both sides. Make sure you have measured the placement of your pins. Make sure your finish doesn't show evidence of earlier grits. Make sure your cutting edge doesn't have awkward kinks or angles in it if it is supposed to be a smooth curve. Etc, etc. Make sure whatever the outcome of that knife is, whatever the style or features or price point, that all the details of that knife are what you intended for that product. You can do simple and inexpensive work but do it well.
 
i4Marc, I don't think you are talking about the same thing most of us are. We aren't contesting basic fit and finish... that is a given. I believe that the OP was talking more about "How far(or in which direction) do I need to take this craft in order to be considered high quality?... but even more so, "At what point will the quest for perfection have a negative impact on my ability to turn a profit?" Can you have both? I say, yes.

For me, the bottom line is that you can have a simple plain carbon steel knife, with natural wood scales... that is is done to the same fit and finish as a pattern welded, quillion dagger with a fluted handle in ancient ivory. COMPLETELY different animals... with the same attention to detail.
 
Hey guys - thanks for all the great responses. I've learned a lot here and at age 77 still learn something every day especially when I work on a knife. Make no mistake - every knife I make is the very best I can do with my current skill set and experience level. They get better all the time but I am never 100% satisfied and strive to make each one better than the last! And they are getting better.

Thanks again for your input. I will keep an eye on this thread but I need to get to the shop and probably will not post in this thread again. (unless I change my mind :) )
 
i4Marc said:
rustyrazor,

You are well within your rights to ask such a question. I am a maker. I posted a couple of knives in another thread yesterday and I have posted a number of other knives over the last two years.

You don't need to agree with me on all points. My opinions are my own and I hope I'm not giving the impression that everybody should think as I do. This is a discussion, an exchange of opinions. My own point of view comes from my own hunger to learn and improve and the standards I impose upon myself. But it also comes from the fact that I have a teaching spirit. I am not a teacher by trade but I enjoy helping people and passing on what little I know to others who may share a similar interest. I never approach a critique or opinion of others' works from a place of malice or superiority. I just know how I feel about my own work when I improve and I try to help others when I can. My work is far from perfect. I do not have the knowledge base that many others have. But I do the best I can at each stage of my journey.
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Hey Marc. Wasn't asking out of any malice or negativity either... just asking, as I just got the feeling that you had felt like someone shouldn't sell a knife unless it was near perfect, and that you might think different if you had to make a profit at it, but since you do make em and sell em, I guess you know the pain it can be to get something to the point where you are happy with it. Not saying you can't think that way, I was only going to counter that there is a point of diminishing returns at which you have to say "enough is enough" and sell the knife at the 97% solution or take a loss on it. I can't speak for everyone, but if I took the time to make every knife to my 100% standard, I would have to charge $500 a piece... and my name just isn't big enough to draw in that kind of coin. Don't get me wrong, they are as good as I can reasonably make them and I stand behind each one as if my own life depended on it, because most of the people I sell them to, buy them as if their life someday might. I do agree with you though and I am also of the mentality that you should be open to each opinion and learn from everyone all the time. IMHO, if you're not learning and getting better you are likely getting complacent and more often than not, letting your skills fade. I've learned this from my "real" job and it's proven right from what experience has taught me, so I would be willing to bet knives are no different.
 
I agree Rusty and don't think your skimmping on details or quality. As Rick points out there has to be a cut off. Sure we would all like Nick Wheeler level finishes on all our knives but the guy that wants a nice $150 utility may never buy a Wheeler knife because of the time he has to put in to get that level of finish demands a much higher price. And its a point I wanted to mention to Col Defender. Sure someone may see a really nice knife on here and question why yours isn't as pretty or have gold inlay but all you have to do is tell them to price it and they will understand. Those knives fetch thousands in most cases and no one typically buys them to beat on and pry open boxes with. And wow you are an inspiration sir, in my late thirties I thought I was getting a late start but at 77 that is impressive and motivational!

i4Marc I think you genuinely want to help and you obviously put time into your responses to Nic. The only thing I would take issue with is how you came off in regards to taking your time. Nic has improved and is doing very well for someone her age, 17 if I recall from a previous thread, and a young lady in a predominantly stuffy old guy field. As this thread points out we all take different amounts of time to learn or get the finish we are looking for and you sort of sounded as if its mandated one puts in many hours per knife to learn the skill. So she is improving and if she likes to improve a little per knife but make many I don't see a problem with that so long as she can keep buying steel. To put it another way if someone makes 100 knives in ten years and becomes a mastersmith improving greatly with each knife, where someone else makes a 1000 knives and becomes a mastersmith in the same ten years improving slightly with each knife is that wrong in any way?

Not trying to knock you at all just pointing out we all learn differently and get pleasure out of this hobby in different ways. I hope you continue to help Nic out we need more lady smiths. Also, I know you can make a nice knife, I really liked your NRA donor knife btw.

-Clint
 
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lol.. if I compared my knives with nick wheelers I likely wouldn't put one out for 4 months at a time.
 
This is a very interesting thread and one I am currently dealing with.

I'm on to my 2nd flipper knife and can't believe people actually want to place orders. When I started I always said I wouldn't sale a knife for at least 1-2 years because I want to be at an acceptable level. My first knife actually came out much better than I expected, and with all the craziness of IG I got some ridiculous offers that tempted me. I remembered real quick though that my goal is to make fantastic knives, not make huge profits from this. This will always be a passion first.

If I were to charge what it cost me to make the knife including allocating startup cost I wouldn't feel comfortable charging that much. At the same time, each time I build knives I'm tossing money out the door with material and machine wear. Should I actually charge these fees? My answer is no, I am paying those cost to learn and get better.

Now, if you are trying to make a living at this you have to charge and quite frankly if people are willing to pay, then its fine. Would I be comfortable charging $1k for my custom, no, and people are willing to pay that.

What I do have a problem with is guys that take money for knives that are not interested in giving out a great knife or improving, just looking at it from a profit standpoint.
 
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