Philosophical Question: Perfection vs Production

[Bob Ohlemann]

I can't speak for everyone, but if I took the time to make every knife to my 100% standard, I would have to charge $500 a piece... and my name just isn't big enough to draw in that kind of coin.

This goes to the point I was trying to make earlier. Name is important but, you will not get the name without producing the kind of quality that is deserving of it. The great makers are relentless in their pursuit of perfection and yet, if you were to ask them, they would tell you they've never made a perfect knife. We've all heard that the definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Knifemaking is the same way. If you want to excel, you've got to push for excellence.

It really boils down to what kind of maker you want to be. If you want to be considered a high level maker some day, it's not going to happen by accident. You have got to be extremely critical of your own work, try new things and always look for a better way. Go to some shows and pick up some of the better known makers knives. You will need to look very hard to find anything wrong with them. That is why they became well known makers; they didn't up the ante when they started gaining a name. Sure, they took a hit on some of their early knives because they had so many hours in them and were unknown but, it doesn't take long for people to notice.

When I go to a knife show, I see a lot of makers (maybe 25%) who I do not feel are displaying the best work they are capable of; they have settled for mediocrity. They usually have a lot of knives on the table and nobody in front of it. Their prices are right on the upper end of production knives and they take most of them home with them. Meanwhile, many of the guys who are displaying their best work have 6-10 pieces, clear their table, are getting true "handmade knife" prices and they are building that name.

I'm going to talk about myself for a minute. If you've been around this forum for several years, you probably know I'm a fairly new maker. I completed my first knife almost 14 months ago. Now I will admit, I am in the ideal situation because I am semi-retired with a pension and my wife has a good job and is very supportive of my journey so, that does give me an advantage over some. In a little over a year, I have gone from never having made a knife to selling knives bumping up against the $1k mark. The money sounds nice but honestly when you look at the hours I have in a knife, it's not that much. My folders take 25-35 hours to complete and I do use some expensive materials.

I go to shows and gatherings and I put my knives in the hands of every maker and collector I possibly can and ask them to critique. I listen and ask questions and process all the information so I can improve my knives. I take classes with some of the best makers out there and consider it to be the best money I've spent in knifemaking. I feel I am at the beginning of this journey as a knifemaker and have my eye on the long term. In the last year I have spent roughly twice as much on knifemaking as I have made which, is obviously not a long term business model. I consider it to be paying my dues. I am investing for the future and enjoying the process.

My feeling is that you can only produce and sell so many lower quality knives before it is going to have an effect on your future sales and reputation for quality. I hate to say it but, the best knife you can make might still be low quality, especially early on. In the days before internet, it was probably pretty easy to overcome those early "bad" knives but, I think it is harder to do today. That said, I do feel the knives speak for themselves; when the quality gets there, people will begin to notice. I think it is a very good idea to put your knives into another good makers hands and ask if your knives are ready to sell.

Ok...I'm rambling.

Bob

 

[james terrio]

It's an easy topic to ramble about, because it's hard to nail down.

If you want to make a handful of $3000+ bowies with damascus and engraved fittings and hand-tooled sheaths per year as a hobby and be considered an artist, every little detail better be tight and dang-near-perfect.

If you want to make a couple hundred strong reliable $200-300 knives per year for a living, that level of beauty and fit'n'finish is simply not feasible. But they still need to be very well-built, because some factories today are providing pretty good knives with pretty good FnF.

If you want to crank out sharpened files with diamondwood scales slapped on 'em and sell 'em at flea markets and guns shows for $100 or less... that's a different approach.

In any case, the knife should represent what you feel is good performance, in terms of the way it's ground, how it feels in hand, and how it cuts. No amount of plain or fancy can change that.

 

[timos-]

This is a great topic and I have lost sleep over it the past two years...Its interesting to hear everyone's different take. I have to say I agree with others here, it is a personal decision and the answer will be different for everyone.

 

[rustyrazor]

It's an easy topic to ramble about, because it's hard to nail down.

If you want to make a handful of $3000+ bowies with damascus and engraved fittings and hand-tooled sheaths per year as a hobby and be considered an artist, every little detail better be tight and dang-near-perfect.

If you want to make a couple hundred strong reliable $200-300 knives per year for a living, that level of beauty and fit'n'finish is simply not feasible. But they still need to be very well-built, because some factories today are providing pretty good knives with pretty good FnF.

I agree with everyone on here for the most part, and this post kind of hit it for me. I can't nail down where i am in my knifemaking "career" at all as of yet and I'm kind of stuck in limbo for the forseeable future. I think i fall right in the middle of where your two explanations describe. I make between 1 and 5 knives a month on average when i'm home which equates to about 20-30 a year at this point. I don't have the time to dedicate to taking orders, or even having a website or posting videos for that matter as i do have a full time job that takes me away for weeks/months at a time, sometimes with very little notice and my schedule will just not allow it. 80% of my knives go to guys i work with in my unit or other militaries that i work with and for me this is good... nobody beats on a knife like a bored soldier from what i can tell and i get some great feedback this way. Long story short, i'm nothing more than a hobby maker at this point who is trying to get himself a reputation and a "line" of well designed repeatable high quality knives that people can rely on... hopefully with a better fit and finish than they can find off the shelf somewhere. Hopefully someday it pays off... but if not, i've given the guys that bought them the best i could at the time.

 

[Ken H>]

This has been a VERY good thread with some GOOD points made on both sides of the issue - fairly cheap but well made, vs perfection knife that costs an "arm 'n leg". My first post came across as somewhat promoting the "fairly cheap but well made" because there is a market there that simply will not touch a "perfection" level knife due to cost. As far as function, there should be no real difference between the two levels. With that all said, "IF" a person has a goal of selling $1K to $3K knifes, then I would think if you start selling $100 to $200 knifes, it's going to be very hard to move from that $100 to $1,000 jump. I think a fine maker by the name of Ed once said, it's the "Rock Star" names who can sell those really high end knives due to name recognition. These folks make Blade and other high end shows, even if they don't bring a knife, just to keep their name "out there" to collectors.

Just might thinking.

Ken H>

 

[JG Custom Metal Works]

I personally don't see any point in trying to sell a handmade knife that isn't any better than a cheap mass produced knife. Realistically, a mass produced knife can be pretty good for a very low price so you've got to really bring something special or there is no value. When I first got into knifemaking, Johnny Stout told me that if I made a quality product and offered it for a fair price, the market would find me. I had my doubts but, I have focused on making the best knives I possibly can and he was right; my books are six month out and getting longer. If you focus on making every knife the absolute best you can, you will get faster at producing higher quality and your standards will continue to rise. Even if you want to be a "production" guy, you really should focus on making a few models to the absolute highest standards but, with less options.

Bob

Bingo.

There are some real nice mass produced blades out there for relatively cheap. Becker, ESEE, Swamp Rat, etc... Imo I try and do my best on everything I make. I have to get customers to choose my blade over those mass produced knifes. In order to do this I have to take things to the next level.

Sure, time is money but I've found that the more you take your time getting things closer to perfect, the better/faster you get at it. For me, I try to do everything I can to expedite my processes. Usually I'll setup my grinder for a particular stage of production and do multiple knives.

My goal is to consistently turn out a couple $500-$600 knives a week.

 

[pwheeler]

I think the best thing to constantly ask yourself is "why should someone give me their money for this?" If you aren't, at least in your own mind, giving your customer something better, unique, or cheaper than your competition then I think you have a problem. Of course, there will probably always be someone doing better work than you at the same price point, but if you are striving to be the best, things will probably turn out well. Early on you will probably fall short, that's what your friends and mom are for. It's super easy to go through the for-sale pages and cherry pick the people who you are out-performing or out-pricing, it takes some discipline to really look hard at everything and occasionally take your medicine and realize you have to do better. I've had a couple recently that I was really torn on, including one top-of-the-line model I really could have used the money from, but it had a little thin spot in the edge I didn't catch until sharpening. 95% of buyers wouldn't have noticed in a million years. I went through the exact struggle you're talking about, and decided to make that one a keeper for myself. The personal pride in the product was worth more than the value of one knife. Another I just wasn't 100% happy with the finish, but someone saw it in person and said "I'll take it", and I let it go. It's always a judgement call. If you don't let a knife out the door until you have made a 100% flawless product, you will go broke and die before that happens. There is no such thing as perfection, but it's the pursuit of it that makes this fun.

While I don't disapprove of the lower end strategy, for me it just never had an appeal. If my knives aren't superior in at least some way to the production competition, I don't see the point in making them.