Pics of serious breaks chips or cracks on a S30v blade.

[Justabuyer]

I prefer more concrete results regarding what my knives can and cannot do rather than basing my opinion of such on the second hand experience of others.

Drinking Draino hurts at least I have heard from others.......

 

[Confederate]

...I feel S30V isn't the supersteel to end all others. It does have its weaknesses, for instance it doesn't take a very fine edge compared to fine grained stainless steels like 12C27, so it's not very good when it comes to push cutting.

Well, it depends on what the grind is like. My Native can take a very fine edge, but my Buck Alaskan doesn't. Many hunters want knives that will cut through bone and sinew, so they want more of a working edge. That doesn't mean the Buck doesn't get sharp; it just means that it won't go as razor sharp as some other knives. The knives I own that take the sharpest edges have blades made of 440A, AUS8A, VG-1 and 8Cr13MoV. Yet, having said that, the dullest blade I have is a CRKT with an AUS8 blade, so heat treat has a lot to do with it.

For people who carry their knives primarily as a self defense or emergency tool, a razor sharp edge is a real advantage. One knife I'm fond of is the Cold Steel Recon 1, old style, with a 440A blade. It takes an exceedingly fine edge and manages to hold onto it for longer than I'd expected. It wouldn't be a top pick for hunting or camping, though.

As an all around cutting knife, the Spyderco Native is just incredible. It cuts wood, cardboard, food, opens letters and packages and could easily go through a seatbelt and even thin aluminum. If the blade were a little over four inches, it would be perfect for everything, including defense, but as it is, it cuts out of proportion for its weight, size and price.

Abuse will ruin any knife, and with the price of S30V being what it is, I'd buy cheaper knives if I were going to beat them up. A Buck 110 standard and a Byrd Cara Cara each can be had for under thirty clams, and they can take quite a bit of abuse without breaking the bank.

Those wanting a knife for hunting may want to read this review.

Cliff Stamp also noted in his review of S30V: "Problems with S30V have been frequently reported on internet discussion forums just cutting soft materials such as cardboard, corn stalks, plastics and wood. The frequency of defects is so high that users have reported several defective blades. Sometimes the problems have been solved with sharpening but others have persisted through repeat sharpenings and use. Others have even seen problems with more gross fractures under similar light work. Commonly it is found that S30V blades tend to blunt by chipping at a microscopic level."

 

[I'mGatMan!]

I would still like to see some pics of chipping, not denting, rolling, or whatever.

 

[Confederate]

I'd like to see some photos, too, but I'm not surprised there aren't any. You'd have to have a high magnification ability, and I think that's not within the reach of most people. Anyone can nick a blade, but microchipping normally occurs in older blades or in brand new blades, where they get sharpened out. The best way to detect them is with your finger tip. With my 30x magnifier and plenty of light, I can see minute chipping, but it doesn't really affect my cutting ability. Many people have reported chipping while using their blades to cut just ordinary stuff like cardboard. Although the blade of my Native is plenty sharp, even after sharpening, it never seems to be as smooth as my AUS8A blades. My 440A blades aren't terribly smooth, either, but are sharp.

The real question is what's acceptable and what's not, and if it is a problem, how does one prevent it? The answer, based on what I've heard from others, is to make sure the blade edge is as smooth as you can get it. That means using fine stones and stropping the edge as a last step. By polishing the edge with leather or cardboard, you can prevent the steel from developing the microchips.

On another website, Jerry Hossom wrote: "When the steel first came out, I was contacted by a few makers who were having this problem and knew I had worked with the steel. Most were giving it a 220 grit, toothy edge, and were seeing poor edge retention. When they tried polishing the edge, the steel demonstrated what it was capable of. That's one reason why I strongly recommend using a small belt sander for sharpening, because you can get belts down to 15 microns and finish that on a leather belt with polishing compound; that makes all steels better IMO."

Smooth edges on all steel makes sense and I like the feel of a stropped, polished and sharp edge. That's one reason I like AUS8. You buy it, you don't pay much for it, you use it and, most of the time, you don't have any problems with it. I have a friend who has a Cold Steel Pro-Lite with 440A. He gets home every night and does two or three swipes with his small ceramic sharpener and he says his blade is ready to go the next day. Since my blades are mostly serrated, I don't have to worry about it. If I need to do a lot of cutting, the serrations help. And if I don't need or want serrations, I use my little Native. If everyone's second knife was a Native, I think most people would never have any knife or sharpening issues. I don't know who designed that little knife, but it's quickly become one of my favorites.

My Native and a small CS Voyager (medium). Both make
excellent "second knives."

 

[knarfeng]

I would still like to see some pics of chipping, not denting, rolling, or whatever.

From the accounts I have read of people whose posts I trust, I believe that the chipping would be difficult to capture with a standard lens. I doubt that most people have the close-up lenses necessary to record the chipping on film.

 

[Buhbuhbonky]

Keep in mind Vivi goes a little "sharpening happy" with his knives, putting a razor-like 10 degree angle on everything, including his hatchets

Most of those who keep a standard ~40 degree angle on their blades will, with normal use, not have much of a problem with chipping in any of the high end steels.

 

[Vivi]

Keep in mind Vivi goes a little "sharpening happy" with his knives, putting a razor-like 10 degree angle on everything, including his hatchets

Most of those who keep a standard ~40 degree angle on their blades will, with normal use, not have much of a problem with chipping in any of the high end steels.

Did you read where it was noted that at the ~10 degree inclusive edge I put on the UKPK no damage was sustained through normal use, which is the whole reason why I did what I did, to find out where that point is that it could be taken to.

I've never had any steel fail catastrophically from these types of edges, including choppers. This includes D2, 440C, AUS8, 8Cr13MoV, VG10, SAK Steel, 13C27 etc.

I still fail to see how optimizing a tool for the intended job is anything but the most logical course of action an individual can take. 40 degrees edges are not suitable for pocket knives unless you cut metal on a regular basis. They are inefficient for materials like wood, cardboard and foods. I have asked you to relate to me experience where you have taken a quality knife to thin edges and had it fail you, and you have not. I have video of my thin knives being abused and taking it without issue. Every time someone has come here and posted how their knife failed them at thin edges, I've made a point to go repeat the same incident with one of my folders. I still haven't had any issues.

I really would like someone to step up to the plate and post about their real life experience with thin edges on quality blades that led them to believe they were weak. I've heard this argument be repeated as nauseum for years and I can't recall seeing much of anything to support these claims.

Beyond making videos of me cutting cables and batoning the knife through wood I don't know what I have to do to convince you that my UKPK isn't going to fall apart the first time I break down a box. Did you ever look at the stock thickness of a boxcutter and cry afoul?

 

[Broos]

It would be interesting to know what grit finish was used on the knives that did chip - is it something that happens with coarse edges only, or are polished edges chipping, too?

I've got a lot of S30V knives, almost all polished, and have not had chipping issues with them.

 

[Buhbuhbonky]

Vivi, I do love you, and I don't have personal anecdotal evidence like you about knives with 10 degree blades, because I don't reprofile mine to that extreme.

However, if I point you to the fact that my new German-made Wusthof kitchen knives, and indeed all german kitchen knives, have angles of AT LEAST 40 degrees, sometimes 45.

Something tells me that after hundreds of years, those plucky folks in Solingen would have figured out a pretty good angle for cutlery, and especially cutlery used in food prep.

Granted the Japanese use less of an angle on their knives, but they also use harder steel, which can support it.

While you do make my toes tingle, Vivi, I'm going to trust hundreds of years of knifemaking when I decide what angle to put on my knives, not just the word of a few folks on the 'net.

 

[hardheart]

but boxcutters aren't premium steel!

I don't have the pics on my hdd anymore, pardon me for waiting to search through a 289 meg folder for pics I took two years ago. this was also before the yahoo/flickr business, and I had upped them to yahoo.

 

[Vivi]

Vivi, I do love you, and I don't have personal anecdotal evidence like you about knives with 10 degree blades, because I don't reprofile mine to that extreme.

However, if I point you to the fact that my new German-made Wusthof kitchen knives, and indeed all german kitchen knives, have angles of AT LEAST 40 degrees, sometimes 45.

Something tells me that after hundreds of years, those plucky folks in Solingen would have figured out a pretty good angle for cutlery, and especially cutlery used in food prep.

Granted the Japanese use less of an angle on their knives, but they also use harder steel, which can support it.

While you do make my toes tingle, Vivi, I'm going to trust hundreds of years of knifemaking when I decide what angle to put on my knives, not just the word of a few folks on the 'net.

Well there's the flaw in your thinking. Companies, and many of them will openly state such, do not always put the most optimal edge on the knife (Or other cutting tools) for the job. They leave it thick in order to keep the edge strength for their mass consumer market. What this means is that not every knife will come from the factory optimized for people like you and me who care for our knives well and sharpen them frequently. It means they are thinking about the housewives that will be cutting through bone then throwing their knives in the dishwasher. When you promote the edges you are, this is the mentality you are supporting, that you are not good enough for an optimized edge, that an illogically thick factory edge put on a design to reduce damage in the hands of irresponsible people is the best edge YOU can have. If you are a responsible and competent person, which you appear to be, you should be able to properly care for a thin edge without issue, and will only benefit from utilizing one.

Also, take a look at the last two thousand years of knife making. You'll see thick edges are a very recent trend, exploding in popularity as the tactical scene crept forward into the spotlight.

I don't want you or anyone else here to take what I say at face as truth. I want you to do what I did, thin out some knives in a quality steel and use them, or have someone else do it for you. I will even mail you one if you would like. I have done this for others and they were pleased with the cutting ability of the knives I sent them. Until you or others have given these edges a genuine chance on a quality knife I don't want to hear about how they're too weak, because they aren't, and I will continue making videos to prove such (A better camera would help).

 

[hardheart]

Vivi, I do love you, and I don't have personal anecdotal evidence like you about knives with 10 degree blades, because I don't reprofile mine to that extreme.

so you actually have no idea how those edges behave? cool, me too, I sharpen at about 20-26, freehand, so it varies.

However, if I point you to the fact that my new German-made Wusthof kitchen knives, and indeed all german kitchen knives, have angles of AT LEAST 40 degrees, sometimes 45.

cool, I don't sharpen my stuff to the same exacting standard that is applied to soft stainless that is mass produced for everyday kitchen duty by the general populace. pardon me for being a knife snob, I am on a knife discussion forum.

Something tells me that after hundreds of years, those plucky folks in Solingen would have figured out a pretty good angle for cutlery, and especially cutlery used in food prep.

Granted the Japanese use less of an angle on their knives, but they also use harder steel, which can support it.

so it's only logical that you want to use more obtuse angles with modern steels, why try to emulate centuries old technology that can actually work at lower angles when mediocrity is so easy to achieve.

While you do make my toes tingle, Vivi, I'm going to trust hundreds of years of knifemaking when I decide what angle to put on my knives, not just the word of a few folks on the 'net.

hundreds of years of German, or Japanese knifemaking.

Sorry to see Jeff Clark ran you off from the other thread. He's pimp like that. Watch those toes, could be poor circulation.

 

[knarfeng]

Also, take a look at the last two thousand years of knife making. You'll see thick edges are a very recent trend, exploding in popularity as the tactical scene crept forward into the spotlight.

.

Vivi, do you have a source for that statement?

 

[Vivi]

Vivi, do you have a source for that statement?

It's just a general observation from looking at knives over the years as a hobby.

How many pocket knives 100 years ago were being made with 3 or 4 mm thick blades and given a sabre grind and 50 degree edge bevel?

Most traditional knives I've seen have been like a butcher knife, thin and designed to cut. By traditional I mean what native american tribesmen used and other indigenous peoples.

The idea of a knife being used not to cut is, as far as I've seen, a fairly modern mentality.

 

[severedthumbs]

How Many Pocket Knives 100 Years Ago Were Being Made With 3 Or 4 Mm Thick Blades And Given A Sabre Grind And 50 Degree Edge Bevel?

..41..

 

[knarfeng]

You want to watch those "general observations". When stated as if they are proven fact it weakens your other arguments.

I do not know whether the knife makers of the last hundred two thousandyears were making blades with extremely thin edges, although I tend to doubt it. High quality, high strength steel is a development of the 20th century. It takes a high quality steel to be strong enough to support a thin edge.

Made error: red is what I mistakenly put in. Blue is what it should have been

 

[roughedges]

It's just a general observation from looking at knives over the years as a hobby.

How many pocket knives 100 years ago were being made with 3 or 4 mm thick blades and given a sabre grind and 50 degree edge bevel?

4mm is somewhat under 1/8" thick (its .0393...inch/mm, I'm not doing the math.) which would be quite common on the master blade of many 100 year old pocket knives.

The idea of a knife being used not to cut is, as far as I've seen, a fairly modern mentality.

This is a ridiculous statement. Even at 90 degrees, an edge can cut. Don't believe me? Try facing two perpendicular steel surfaces sometime and run your hand along the edge. Bring band-aids.

For that matter, do you see many native americans using their painstakingly hand flaked obsidian blades to fell a tree? Different uses = different edges. Always has, always will. The only thing any so-called modern mentality has changed about this is the amount of options.

 

[hardheart]

4mm is somewhat under 1/8" thick

little over, about 2.5 sixteenths.

 

[roughedges]

little over, about 2.5 sixteenths.

So it is. Even still, it would hardly be an uncommon thickness. Wostenholm and Rodgers both made jackknives, and probably other patterns, that approached 1/4".

 

[enderwiggin]

I still fail to see how optimizing a tool for the intended job is anything but the most logical course of action an individual can take. 40 degrees edges are not suitable for pocket knives unless you cut metal on a regular basis.

I think the problem people are having understanding why you posted images of an edge re-profiled from 40° to 10° that you tried to cut metal with in this particular thread.

While we get that you did it to test the limits of the steel, posting up those photos with a link to the test but no disclaimer, e.g.: "Damage was sustained only after I reprofiled the edge to far, far thinner than the factory edge"

...May have struck some of us as misleading.

I don't have any particular problem with the idea that "hard" steel with a keen edge will dent or chip if hammered into hard things.

Speaking of pretty obtuse (although not quite 90°) edges being sharp, ever use a CV wood Chisel and hit a nail with it? Hitting nails or even knots in wood is a fantastic way to chip up the edge and ruin a good chisel. A chisel made out of 440A might fare better against the nail, but would anyone expect it to have better edge-holding against the Chrome Vandium Chisel?

Judging from a majority of posts on here, a lot of people might, since they seem to equate "durability" or "toughness" with "better edge holding," when they're two polar opposites.