Placeholding "Custom" Question

[Josh K]

Anybody want to argue my 56 Chevy analogy any longer?

Yeah, it's not a "custom" car.

Then again I don't move in car circles, they may have a different idea.

 

[BowieBooster]

I'm not looking to argue, but if you "customize" a '57 Chevy, it's STILL a '57 Chevy. The first DeLorean? THAT was a "custom" car (at least until he built more of 'em). The Chevy, well, it's a '57 Chevy with custom bumpers, wheel wrap, interior, wheels, etc. etc. ... but how is no longer a '57 Chevy? I would call it a "customized '57 Chevy," not a "custom car." I think actual custom car builders would think so, too.

That being said, I think this thread is becoming argumentative to the point of uselessness. Agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I'm not looking to argue, but if you "customize" a '57 Chevy, it's STILL a '57 Chevy. The first DeLorean? THAT was a "custom" car (at least until he built more of 'em). The Chevy, well, it's a '57 Chevy with custom bumpers, wheel wrap, interior, wheels, etc. etc. ... but how is no longer a '57 Chevy? I would call it a "customized '57 Chevy," not a "custom car." I think actual custom car builders would think so, too.

That being said, I think this thread is becoming argumentative to the point of uselessness. Agree to disagree and move on.

Actually not a good example imo, as the first Delorean was a prototype made from a Lotus frame/chassis/suspension with a Renault 2.8L engine/drive train (same engine that went in the 264 series Volvo) and Bosch electronics. Only thing that was actually unique were the fiberglass sub-body with it's stainless steel exterior body panels. Even the Gull-Wing doors were copied from the old 50-60s SL300 Mercedes.
Still a super cool car though.

However you are 100% correct imo, in that there will never be agreement on the custom/handmade issue/definition. As Les says, we know one when we see one.

 

[petah]

I like midtec's and I would consider them semi custom.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

If you decide to build a CUSTOM 56 Chevy you start with a stock 56 Chevy.

You aren't building a custom 56 chevy , you are customizing a stock one , big difference. Much like somone taking a production knife , and adding bolsters , ti backspacer , different scales , refinish the blade , etc , it isn't custom , its customized.

Just like the 56 Chevy's that claim to be in " original restored condition". It can only be original once , once restored it is just that restored to like original.

Similar to the American Chopper show , most of the stuff they don't make , they use off the shelf parts , it's not truly a custom , it's custom assembled.

Confuse things even more with firearms , there are few true custom gun builders , many smiths' start with a frame or receiver made by someone else , and they call it a custom. Is it custom ? Custom assembled ? Custom fit ? Customized ?

Custom can have many meanings , in many different fields. It was you who stated " to make any knife a custom knife it must be made to CUSTOMER specifications and requirements either in handle material, blade grind or some other change. ".

Me , I just call em knives , does custom or not matter to you as you make them ? I bet not , does it matter to your customers that buy them , probably not.

It's just a label after all , correct ?

 

[george tichbourne]

When a customer comes to me with a complete drawing and specs to make a special knife I call that a "commission".

I will make the knife up true to his or her specifications but feel strongly that I should not put my name on the blade because it is not my design.

This may be a ""unique custom(er) designed knife" but to me it is an orphan.

George

 

[RogerP]

I really don't know anything about the term "custom" as it applies to cars. I do know something about it as it applies to knives. I don't think that the use of a term in one field is universally applicable to all fields.

All the knives in my collection are "custom" knives. With a few I had significant input in the design. With some I had limited input as to materials. Wiht others, I had no input whatsoever. They were all crafted by a single artisan. They are all custom knives. This includes my standard George Tichbourne kitchen knife with "custom" lignum vitae scales.

Roger

 

[BladefulArt]

I could care less if they are called custom , hand made , custom hand made , etc. I was only questioning why his site indicates something different from his stated viewpoint.

Because a knifemaker that labels themselves as "custom knifemaker" is not limited to just customs. They can make knives of their own design ready for immediate purchase as well as long as most of their sells are from customs.


Custom; adj.
1. made to order
2.specializing in the making or selling of made-to-order goods

"The Free Dictionary" "Mirriam Webster" "Encyclopædia Britannica"

Just because something is handmade or crafted by a single person, does not mean that it is custom nor does it mean that a custom is better as both are of the same quality if made by experienced people. The only difference is that a customer has some input into the construction of a custom.

 

[george tichbourne]

THAT is a definition that I can get behind and support.

Wonderful things dictionaries.

George

 

[Lorien]

I think the term 'custom' can be likened to the term 'sole authorship', and as such can be employed over a fairly wide scope of definitions for enthusiasts, while also narrowing things down enough for the masses to form some understanding of the general principle.

 

[elkins45]

It's 'custom' vs 'handmade' all over again. You can have handmade knives that aren't custom...not as sure about custom knives that aren't handmade. I suppose if you choose from several available options and mix n' match to your liking that might be considered 'custom'.

Are Randall's custom knives?

As for my own personal definition, it's not a true custom knife unless it meets one of these criteria:
1) I had a conversation with the maker and had input into the design and materials]
2) Nobody else has one exactly like it. It certainly isn't built from mass-proiduced interchangeable parts (except for stuff like screws, pins, etc.).

Is this a correct definition? I don't care...it's mine and it works for me.

 

[RogerP]

It's 'custom' vs 'handmade' all over again. You can have handmade knives that aren't custom...not as sure about custom knives that aren't handmade. I suppose if you choose from several available options and mix n' match to your liking that might be considered 'custom'.

Are Randall's custom knives?

As for my own personal definition, it's not a true custom knife unless it meets one of these criteria:
1) I had a conversation with the maker and had input into the design and materials]
2) Nobody else has one exactly like it. It certainly isn't built from mass-proiduced interchangeable parts (except for stuff like screws, pins, etc.).

Is this a correct definition? I don't care...it's mine and it works for me.

I guess you don't see many custom knives at a custom knife show then. You sure don't see many handmade knives either - I'm willing to bet every single one of them was made using a tool of some kind. So what exactly am I looking at as I walk through the ABS section at Blade?

Roger

 

[elkins45]

I guess you don't see many custom knives at a custom knife show then. You sure don't see many handmade knives either - I'm willing to bet every single one of them was made using a tool of some kind. So what exactly am I looking at as I walk through the ABS section at Blade?

Roger

Handmade doesn't mean not using tools, and nothing in my post either states or implies that. You're being petulant by pretending to believe that's what I meant. Even flint knapping employs a tool.

Handmade means they weren't mass produced from a repeated pattern. A handmade knife is created as an individual piece of work using whatever degree of technology the maker wishes to use. A maker can CNC blades and scales or have them water jet cut, but they cease to be custom when he makes a batch of 50 of them all exactly alike then assembles whole batches of identical knives.

 

[elkins45]

Is this a custom knife?

He offered it for sale and I bought it. He has made others that are practically identical. I don't know if the blades would interchange between them, but if I dropped mine in a bucket with those others I wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

This is not a custom knife. There's nothing about it that has been customized to my specifications, and it is not a unique object. It is, however, a handmade knife by a maker who actually advertises the fact that he does not normally make knives according to the specifications of customers, but makes designs he likes and offers them for sale. This fine WDZ knife is a handmade knife that I'm proud to own, but it is not a 'custom' knife.

The lovely specimen below, on the other hand, is a true 'custom' knife by the very talented Chuck Gedraitis. Chuck and I had a prolonged email conversation about the materials, contours, blade shape and finish I wanted on this knife.Every aspect of the final product was either something I specifically asked for or Chuck suggested based on our discussions. He custom made this knife for me and as far as I am aware there is no other exactly like it.

See the difference?

 

[RogerP]

Handmade doesn't mean not using tools, and nothing in my post either states or implies that. You're being petulant by pretending to believe that's what I meant.

I've been called worse, by better. Do try to calm down will you? This is just a discussion.

Handmade means they weren't mass produced from a repeated pattern. A handmade knife is created as an individual piece of work using whatever degree of technology the maker wishes to use. A maker can CNC blades and scales or have them water jet cut, but they cease to be custom when he makes a batch of 50 of them all exactly alike then assembles whole batches of identical knives.

Sez you - but who made you the king of definitions? Some people think CNC and water jet mean it's not hand made. I disagree, but all knives are made with tools, not by hands alone. It is a more meaningless term than "custom".

I noticed you didn't answer my question. If your definition of custom is anything more than a purely internal musing, then why are there so few custom knives at a custom knife show? Shouldn't the industry as a whole be informed that they have things completely wrong? After all, the public is being mislead into thinking that at a custom knife show, they will find custom knives. Shouldn't someone put a stop to this outrageous misrepresentation?

Roger

 

[elkins45]

I've been called worse, by better. Do try to calm down will you? This is just a discussion.


Sez you - but who made you the king of definitions? Some people think CNC and water jet mean it's not hand made. I disagree, but all knives are made with tools, not by hands alone. It is a more meaningless term than "custom".

I noticed you didn't answer my question. If your definition of custom is anything more than a purely internal musing, then why are there so few custom knives at a custom knife show? Shouldn't the industry as a whole be informed that they have things completely wrong? After all, the public is being mislead into thinking that at a custom knife show, they will find custom knives. Shouldn't someone put a stop to this outrageous misrepresentation?

Roger

I'm calm. Petulant is a very apt adjective to describe what you did by taking my comment to a ridiculous extreme. And your last sentence in the quoted post above is the very definition of petulant.

I did answer your question before you even asked it. In my original post I said 'custom' can be defined as: 2)Nobody else has one exactly like it. It certainly isn't built from mass-proiduced interchangeable parts (except for stuff like screws, pins, etc.). Those knives on those tables are most likely custom because they are unique objects.

If there are five identical knives laying on his table then he's not a custom knife maker, he's just a low-volume production knife company.

 

[RogerP]

I'm calm. Petulant is a very apt adjective to describe what you did by taking my comment to a ridiculous extreme. And your last sentence in the quoted post above is the very definition of petulant.

I did answer your question before you even asked it. In my original post I said 'custom can be defined as: 2)Nobody else has one exactly like it. It certainly isn't built from mass-proiduced interchangeable parts (except for stuff like screws, pins, etc.). Those knives on those tables are most likely custom because they are unique objects.

If there are five identical knives laying on his table then he's not a custom knife maker, he's just a low-volume production knife company.

Condescending, truculent, dogmatic are apt adjectives to describe your contributions to this thread, but pointing that out doesn't advance the discussion much, does it?

Does this mean you're not sending out the memo to alert the unsuspecting as to the absence of custom knives at custom knife shows?

(I'll save you the trouble - that last bit was "sarcastic" - I don't want you to exhaust your adjectives.)

Roger

 

[elkins45]

Condescending, truculent, dogmatic are apt adjectives to describe your contributions to this thread, but pointing that out doesn't advance the discussion much, does it?

Does this mean you're not sending out the memo to alert the unsuspecting as to the absence of custom knives at custom knife shows?

(I'll save you the trouble - that last bit was "sarcastic" - I don't want you to exhaust your adjectives.)

Roger

You started it I agree with your point about not advancing the discussion, so lets move on to more productive talk.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the questions I asked in post #54. I think there's too much gray area in your idea of 'custom' to be comfortable, especially since 'custom' knives tend to command a higher price by virtue of the very fact that they are 'custom'.

Help me understand your thinking if you will. If a maker creates 100 copies and never talks to a single customer, did he make custom knives? Are these Dozier knives that AG Russell sells custom knives? http://www.agrussell.com/dozier-buffalo-river-hunter/p/DKhhh334CO/

 

[RogerP]

As to post #54 I don't know anything about this particular knife, that particular maker or the body of his or her work. As such, I am in no position to comment on whether it meets my understanding of "custom".

"Practically identical" is a bit of a loose term. To use an example from a maker whose work I am familiar with, Jerry Fisk has made a good many Sendero hunting knives over the past decades. They meet my definition of "custom". If someone wants to dismiss them as not being custom by virtue of a) not all being made to exact cutomer specifications or b) because they are "practically identical" (they aren't) they are welcome to. I just don't agree.

Roger

 

[elkins45]

As to post #54 I don't know anything about this particular knife, that particular maker or the body of his or her work. As such, I am in no position to comment on whether it meets my understanding of "custom".

"Practically identical" is a bit of a loose term. To use an example from a maker whose work I am familiar with, Jerry Fisk has made a good many Sendero hunting knives over the past decades. They meet my definition of "custom". If someone wants to dismiss them as not being custom by virtue of a) not all being made to exact cutomer specifications or b) because they are "practically identical" (they aren't) they are welcome to. I just don't agree.

Roger

If they aren't practically identical then it would seem that you and I are in agreement after all.

WDZ knives is Will Zermeno (sp?) and his website is here http://www.wdzknives.com/ He makes some nice folders and his prices are still very reasonable.