Please help me out on this pre-sell issue

ptgdvc

ptgdvc

Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
2,369
I simply do not understand why any maker would waste his time and money, travelling and setting up a table at show, if he is willing to pre-sell his knives, to a purveyor, at a discount BEFORE the show opens. :confused:

From the maker's perspective, this would seem to be the WORST of all possible worlds. :barf: I don't get it.
Help me out here. Thanks.
 
Because he is selling them for a guaranteed amount that is greater than the amount he spent making the knives. How do you think a maker would feel to pay the several thousand involved in going to a show such as Blade, only to sell two knives? It would not be worth going for them.
 
First, pre-selling is not confined to dealers. Many customers (paying full retail) secure knives in advance of the show as well.

Second, some makers don't even offer dealer discounts. The dealer is paying full price.

Third, the discount given to dealers is also paying for a service, IMHO. The dealer can set the knives on a table, or pictures on a site, next to other customs of the same category. A customer can handle tactical/utility folders or fixed blade hunters by 10 different makers at a dealer table.

Also, dealers can reach out to a customer base the maker may not have access too. A dealer can take the knives to shows a maker may not be able to attend. A maker may not have a website, where a dealer can post them on the net for overseas customers who can't make it to US shows to view.

Don't let anyone tell you selling to dealers is a bad thing. They offer great services to the makers and collectors.

JR
 
I think that is a big part of it, but what about the makers that are guarantied to sell out during the show. Many of them will pre-sell knives as well. Why? Couldn't they just as easily sell knives to the dealers between shows? Is this done just to show appreciation for what the dealer has done for them in the past?

For many makers, I am sure that the reason they pre-sell knives is to be guarantied that they will recoup at least some of the money that it has cost them to exhibit at the show. I can't blame them for that. Some things are more important than making sure that you have knives on your table when the show starts; like paying the bills and feeding your family.
 
One of the reasons that I see for preselling at some shows to dealers and not doing orders for them between shows is that most makers work to produce ALOT more knives for these large shows than they do at other times. We are talking 12 hour days for up to a month in adavance of the show. If a maker was to try and fill the orders of dealers on this scale, they would not be able to provide knives for anyone else except at the shows.

Keith Montgomery said:
I think that is a big part of it, but what about the makers that are guarantied to sell out during the show. Many of them will pre-sell knives as well. Why? Couldn't they just as easily sell knives to the dealers between shows? Is this done just to show appreciation for what the dealer has done for them in the past?
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What's a related, but somewhat less ethical behavior in my opinion, is to delay a customer's order, which is already 3 months overdue, in order to make more knives for a show.

:rolleyes:

-j
 
Jeremy Reynolds said:
Second, some makers don't even offer dealer discounts. The dealer is paying full price.JR
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I don't understand how this works... a lot of the time, dealer prices are the same as the "MSRP" (maker's standard retail price ;) ).

There is no way a businessman is going to make $0 profit on a reasonably-fast moving item -- there's not much in the way of an upsell or a loss-leader concept in the custom market, I'd wager. (I'm not talking about selling below cost to move a low-demand item.)

-j
 
Hi PT,

Depending on how much of a makers business is done via the Internet. May determine how and why he sells his/her knives prior to a show. For many of the popular makers, shows have simply become a place to meet and greet customers. Some collectors enjoy placing an order face to face with the maker.

If the work with dealers, they can expect to pre-sell some of their knives to them. Especially if these dealers take this makers knives to shows they don't attend. The business relationship has to be a two way street.

Additionally, there are long term customers who will ask for "special treatment" this of course is meeting with the maker the night before the show opens for "first pick".

The personal touch is a part of this business.

In the last couple of years, the first day of the show, especially 3 day shows. Has become the day. Makers, even those with several knives on their table are cleaned out.

Lets face it, it's tough to say no to people holding hundred dollar bills in their hand. The truth is every maker and dealer out there has been burned by the collector who has asked that you hold the knife till they get there. Only to never show up. Meanwhile the knife, which could have been sold at the show goes unsold. It only takes a few of those before you will always take the money first.
 
Bio,


The answer is simple. They don't sell at MSRP for knives they pay MSRP to obtain. I know some makers have lotteries at shows, and everyone who gets drawn pays the same price. generally, these knives are in such demand that the value on the secondary market is much higher then the MSRP. So there is a mark up, and the knife is not sold at MSRP.

JR
 
Biogon,

The way I see it is this: If you order directly from a maker, there is a wait time no matter what if you're ordering something to spec. Different story if you're buying "available items". Some makers of course have quite a long wait. There are many people out there that do no want to wait a month to get a knife, and waiting a year or more is unthinkable to some. Those are the people that are willing to pay a premium to get a knife right away from a reselling dealer. So the dealer isn't losing money, he's catering to a different segment of the market.

This is all my 2¢ anyway. :)
 
Jeremy,

I had forgotten about them. I was thinking of the makers who set a fixed advertised price and dealers pretty much stick to them. Thanks!

Patryn,

Yes... true... but still.

I guess the issue is really that if I place an order for an item that isn't available from the maker or from a dealer (ever) -- i.e. a customized catalogue item or a true custom -- AND send a reasonable deposit, I'd rather given a deadline of 12 months rather than a deadline of 2 months and nothing to show after 6.

It just feels kind of wrong that the maker would keep downgrading the position of a customer's order to fill his own slots.

But I suppose this is the universal rant of the custom knife buyer. ;) Much as I like Emersons, I'd hate to be on the list for one of his customs. Or some of the other, more maligned makers here, like poor Joe Chen...

-j
 
Bio,

For most makers, show attendance is factored into the quoted wait time to be in the list. Shows are a cost of doing business, and makers factor all of that in.

Also, many makers I know keep their show work seperate from the orders.

Let's say a maker routinely works 10 hours per day, 5 days per week on custom orders. A show is nearing, so the maker increases the days to 14 hour days, and works an additional 10 hours on the 2 weekend days. That is 30 hours per week above and beyond normal orders just to prepare for shows.

Shows are not an easy thing for makers to get ready for, so I for one refuse to tell them they should'nt sell anything any time.

JR
 
If I were a maker I would almost never hold a knife for delivery at a show without a none refundable deposit. The exception would be for my very best customers; the ones that you are pretty well guarantied that if they say they will be picking up a knife, they will do exactly that.

I would think that makers pre-sell knives for a variety of reasons. One is so that they can recoup at least part of the cost of attending a show. Another would be to try and establish a relationship with a dealer. Still another would be a to show appreciation for a long term relationship.
 
I would think that makers pre-sell knives for a variety of reasons. One is so that they can recoup at least part of the cost of attending a show. Another would be to try and establish a relationship with a dealer. Still another would be a to show appreciation for a long term relationship.
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I totally agree with this statement. The other thing about creating a relationship with a dealer is that at the end of the show you can usually sell them a couple of your remaining knives. Dealers are usually the only ones with a bankroll large enough to do this. Once you establish a good relationship you can sell them knives on a consistant basis and keep a positive cash flow.

The only thing I don't like about pre-selling is not having any knives on your table because you sold everything to delaers. The public pays to get into the show to see knives, not empty tables.
 
When they started turning out the lights in the Galleria on Sunday, there were still plenty of knives for sale. Nice ones.

I think what the whiners want to see is the 'hot' makers holding all sales til *they* can get to the 'hot' makers tables, handle everything without buying, promise to come back after they've looked at the whole show.......
 
try this...spend $1,600 (flight and room for 2 for three days) and travel 2,730 miles. Be part of the first stampede in the door. Run up to a hot makers table and ....look at a book! He's sold everything to a dealer the night BEFORE a Major show.
I should be happy him and the dealer have a "relationship"?
 
Shappa,

That's why you secure your knives before hand. If you don't, then don't cry when you don't get what you want. It's pretty simple. Show up on Thursday, meet the makers, purchase what you want. Call them before hand. See what they are bringing. Purchase what you want.

I am really tired of all the whining and excuses. i'm trying to be nice, but it's really giving me a headache. If you are not willing to do the things it takes to get the knives you want, stop complaining when you don't get them.

JR
 
If you're spending that kinda money to attend the show, why not invest a few bucks on a phone call to get what you wanted? Maybe even send a money order?
 
Why go to the show at all...just send the maker a money order and have him send me the knife? :rolleyes:You have just turned a three day show into a 4 day show or 5 day show...whenever you and the maker can get together it begins.
I go there to handle the knife I want to buy, before puchasing it, shake the hand that made it. I want to walk away from his table and be pleased with the maker and my purchase. I want the knives, but I'm not willing to screw over the other guy to get it. I'm happy with myself and the makers that I have bought from. I guess I want more out of it than just getting the knife by any means...

Hope your headache goes away....
 
Heres my take.
Knife Shows are cool and I attend a bunch of shows and know more knifemakers then the law allows.That being said I can also sit behind this computer and get all the knives I want.(right now the dealers are loaded with pretties and there are at least 5 knives I want to purchase and they are all fixed blades)But I also collect Autos and slipjoints
Shows to me are a means to meet makers.Period.I also spend a bail of the greenstuff but primarally go to see the makers and to ORDER knives from those makers.Pretty simple.
That way if I am not the first to their table it really doesn't matter if they have pre-sold all of their goodies.
An example was the Reno ABS show.I didn't get there until Sat.morn.The tables were pretty picked over but I still managed to spend$9,000.00 and was seen around the show with an armload of booty.Happy.
So in a nutshell I think shows are what you make them.
Word of advice.Get on a first name basis with any knifemaker that you want to purchase from. ;)
Randy
 
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