Please help me out on this pre-sell issue

Screwing over the next guy?

You truely don't have a clue.

If anyone can purchase before the doors are open, how is anyone getting screwed over? Can someone please tell me that. Just because you're not smart enough to secure your purchase up front, doesn't mean I'm screwing you over.

And it's because I'm sepnding the money to go to the shows, that I make sure I can get what I really want. I go to the shows to pick up knives and hang out with my friends. If I already have a knife or two I really want secured for purchase, then i don't have to worry about running from table to table for the first hour. I can relax and enjoy the show and the people.

JR
 
I will offer my prospective on this issue. I am not one of the highly sought after makers but I do have a small following. I am an advid collector and I started collecting before I started making knives. I have a lot of good friends that are knife makers. Some can get me the knives that I want, some can't or don't. Maybe if I called them more to let them know that I want a knife or maybe if I chased them down before the shows I could get more knives. I like and respect all of these guys. I do not like calling them twice a week to see if they will bring me a few knives to the next show. I do have a few friends that do take care of me real well simply because we are close friends, but I never ask to be put in front of another customer. I simply tell or ask them to work me in whenever they can.

I usually target a few makers every year at Blade and decide who I want to try to get a knife from that year. Sometimes I focus on the wrong ones and they either don't show up or they sell out early. I then quickly come up with another plan and try the next makers on my list. This is called "the thrill of the hunt". This is what makes collecting fun. I collect from many makers and therefore I usually wind up getting something that I want. I never totally focus on the top makers. There are tons of great knives and knife makers out there who make great knives for the money. All you have to do is to find those makers, build a good relationship with them and start showing their knives around and you may very well find your self to be a close friend of the next highly sought after maker. Then you will have the contacts to get the latest and greatest from your new best friend.

Bobby
 
You guys sound like a bunch of children who feel cheated because someone, who doesn't know you from Adam, got to the party early, was let in by the host, and took only the cherry candies and now all that is left are orange, lemon, lime and pineapple. Buck up, you're still at the party and there is still candy left for you.

Buyer's have no "right" to a product. A knife maker in most states can legally refuse to sell you something for a reason so simple as they don't like the "cut of your jib." If the girl with the big chest smiles at him and he drops the price by 30% but won't do it for you...What are you going to do...sue?

If a maker sells out before the show and sits at an empty table to shoot the bull and take orders...that's their business. You have no "right" to their product, they can sell it as they see fit.

If you don't like a maker or dealer's business practices, don't patronize them and tell others why not. Market forces will take care of the rest. Even after the "big" guys sell out, there are still plenty of knives left on the tables. Have some fun and discover the next Moran.
 
It ain't about me, brownie, it's about the knife show.

And if the "party" ends up being nothing more than a couple of guys who already drank all the beer, sitting around belching, then no one's going to show up to the next one.
 
brownshoe said:
...if the girl with the big chest smiles at him and he drops the price by 30% but won't do it for you...What are you going to do...sue? .....
Click to expand...

LOL! :D

And I bet somewhere out there, skulking among the reeds in the shallows, is a lawyer who will take that case! ;)

The "arguments" in this thread have become too personal for my taste. What I get out of it at this point is that COLLECTORS who buy from makers at a show are somehow more *honorable* than COLLECTORS who buy from dealers?

I do both - so I'll just grab some popcorn and sit back to see if this resolves into anything worthwhile.

:)
 
"The "arguments" in this thread have become too personal for my taste."

True...

"What I get out of it at this point is that COLLECTORS who buy from makers at a show are somehow more *honorable* than COLLECTORS who buy from dealers?"

Not at all. Collectors who buy from makers at shows just get to see and talk to the man who made the knife they are spending their money on. It's an interaction that has value in its own right.

"I do both - so I'll just grab some popcorn and sit back to see if this resolves into anything worthwhile."

Not likely... :rolleyes:
The knifemaker can sell his knives any way he wishes even if he's not expanding his customer base by selling to his buddies. And the collector can decide who to buy from.
It will never change as far as I can see...and the show will always have tables of nothing but books and people saying "ya shoulda been in his room before the show!"
 
shappa said:
.....the show will always have tables of nothing....
Click to expand...

As a matter of interest, does anyone who attended the show have an *approximate* count of the number of *empty* tables they encountered? Personally, I can remember only two or three. No need to mention makers names, just an estimate if you can remember. The *empty* table complaints in this thread seem to describe a hall awash in bare tables - I just don't remember it that way!

Surely, if someone takes the time to complain about those empty tables, they would have taken the time to make a rough count?

I'm old and forgetful. :(
 
Holger,

I agree. I saw very few empty tables. The ones that were empty were usually empty about 15 minutes after the doors open, because the makers sold out so fast. But I was in the show pre-vip time, and I don't recall any totally empty tables.

I think the shows should require each maker to bring a minimum of 15 knives to a three day show, and they have to put at least 5 knives on the table per day. That way I don't have to hear crying from people who get there saturday and want knives from someone who sold out in 5 minutes on Friday.

JR
 
With respect to all, I think that attacking the “Hall of empty tables” scenario as being unrealistic is setting up a bit of a straw man. Of course it’s exceedingly unlikely that this would ever occur. It is also not really the point.

Let’s say I hop a plane down to a show in the States. Let’s say it’s my first show (as was not that long ago the case). There are 8 or 10 makers there whose knives I have been positively dying to see in person, and I have diligently saved my pennies for the opportunity to buy some of them at the show. I’m up at the crack of dawn pacing my hotel room and among the first at the door waiting for it to open. I’ve studied the floor plan and I know which 8 or 10 tables I’m going to hit first. Except, I find that half or more of these makers have NO KNIVES – not because they didn’t bring any, but because they pre-sold all of them the night before. I’m going to be disappointed. Maybe more than a little. Will I still enjoy myself. Sure – it’s a knife show after all. And yes, there were lots of other knives to see. Will I spend the money and vacation time to return?

This is not, I suggest, so very unlikely a scenario.

Well, at least I can log onto the dealer sites to see what I missed.

Now I know that at least one will rush to point out that I was “too stupid” to secure a knife in advance. But this was my first show. I am from out of the country. The makers don’t know me from Adam. I am not one of their “special customers”. They are not likely going to reserve a knife for me.

Is this “just the way it is”? Yeah, probably. Is this the way it should be? I suggest not. The makers should at least keep a couple knives aside for the guys waiting patiently outside the door chomping tat the bit for the chance to buy them.

And of course I understand that makers have THE RIGHT to do as they please with the fruits of their labor. I’m just adding my contribution to the discussion about what is the right thing to do.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Sure the makers can keep a couple aside for those dying to buy them. Then when they are gone in five minutes, what will the guy who did not get to see/hold/buy one say?
 
mschwoeb said:
Sure the makers can keep a couple aside for those dying to buy them. Then when they are gone in five minutes, what will the guy who did not get to see/hold/buy one say?
Click to expand...


At least he can say he had a shot. Unlike my scanario where you may be first in line, first in the door but it's already "game over".

Roger
 
Ok,

I will get into a big part of why I pre-secure knives or buy them the night before.

Blade 2002 was my first all knife show ever. I flew in from Oklahoma on frequent flyer miles and shared a hotel room with 2 other people to save all the money I could for knives.

The morning of the show, I was the first person through the doors at VIP time. I literally ran to a table of a popular makers who I wanted to get a piece from.

I was the first person to that table. The maker hadn't set up yet, as he didn't want dealers/collectors that were in pre-VIP time trying to buy up his stash.

As the maker was pulling out knives, several people began pushing and shoving me and others out of the way. They had set up a system to block everyone else from the table, while one person handed money and knives between the maker and collectors.

I eventually got a knife, but it wasn't what I really wanted. Ended up selling it a few months later.

I'm a large guy. I'm fairly intimidating until you get to know. I can hold my own in a pushing and shoving match, but I also am more of a teddy bear then a grizzly bear and tend to back off and let people walk all over me. I was so caught up in the moment, and in the number of people blocking me out from the table, I just stood there lost. After things settled down, it hit me that I just got hosed out of the knife I really wanted because of the wild crazy frenzy at the bell. I got pissed, but what could I do? I'm not gonna start fighting and shoving and going nuts over a knife.

I didn't name the maker, because it wasn't his fault at all. He was trying to set up his knives, and couldn't police the crowd at the same time.

I'll be damned if I ever go through that crap again. I missed out on a knife I wanted because people were going absolutely nuts just to get at knives. I won't put myself in those situations again. From now on, I will make sure I get what I want before that happens.

JR
 
Jeremy, youseem to have been put into a situation where you felt that you had to explain why you buy knives the way you do. That's too bad. You have found a way that works for you, you certainly aren't doing anything wrong and you shouldn't feel the need to give us any explanation at all.

The threads on this topic have been very entertaining, and in some ways quite illuminating. Having been through this discussion previously, I kind of new what to expect. My view on this situation comes from my perspective and no one elses. I go to shows for different reasons than many of the others that have taken part in these threads, but I can understand fully, both sides of this debate.

From where I sit the most important part of going to a show, besides getting to meet everybody, is getting to check out knives from the makers that interest me. That is why having as many knives on tables as possible is important to me. Empty tables make my mission impossible, or at least less than optimum. My want to have as many knives to check out as possible is based solely from self interest and does not take into account the reasons that others go to shows. There are probably quite a few others that go to shows for the same reason that I do, and for those people the experience can be disappointing enough to cause them to not want to go to that knife show again. If it happens at a few knife shows, that may just cause these people to not want to go to knife shows at all. In the long run that would not be good for knifemakers. Maybe I don't purchase many knives at shows, but I do order knives based on what I learn while I am there. If I stop going to shows then those are knives that I will not be ordering. Not a big deal to lose my one or two knives that I would have ordered, but if quite a few people like me become disillusioned then it could mean a lot of lost sales for makers. Just my thoughts, take them for what you will.
 
So what is the answer Keith? Tell makers they can't sell until some point in the show?

If the makers quit going to shows because they aren't allowed to make a living, what will happen to shows then?

What do the whiners want anyway? Besides some vague desire to get theirs first?

Lets hear some realistic proposals. Makers go to sell. Makers can sell to whoever they want to, when they want to.

A structured environment like AKI works only because they have a limited number of top makers and limited number of real buyers.
 
pff, you're becoming a real chatterbox! 41 posts since 1999,LOL. It was great to meet you at Blade.

Folks, if you want a knife from a maker going to a show that you know is in very high demand, call first and talk to the maker. If it's possible, agree to meet before the show opens and get your knife. If not, try to buy it now and have him deliver it at the show. Make no mistake, makers go to shows to make money and they're not gonna turn down a sale to have knives on the table.
This issue can be discussed all day but we really have no say in the matter. If as some have suggested, people will stop going to shows, then the makers will have to change. But that is not going to happen.

JR, I'd like to see the guys that boxed you out, was it the offensive line of some pro football team?:D
 
Good to finally meet you in person too Dave. Hope you can make it again next year.

I'm really trying to understand where some folks are coming from on this. So far all I'm hearing is sour grapes from a few folks that want to see/fingerprint/drool on/oogle the wares of a very few 'hot' makers.

Actually, reading between the lines, I think one person in particular is whining about Kit selling out in the first 5 minutes of the show. Guess what? THATS WHAT HE CAME TO THE SHOW TO DO!

I'll say it again....when they started cutting the lights on Sunday evening, there were still plenty of nice knives for sale.

I fail to see the problem.

Oh, and on the subject of dealers snapping up the cream of the crop......I suspect those knives were also presold.

.
 
Preselling is one way of putting it but I prefer to tell people that the knife is being picked up at the show.

It is important to remember that the "collector" picking up that knife at the show has been standing in line for the last three months with money in his hand. He reserved his place in line with a phone call and a credit card.

As for build schedules they are usually carved in stone at least three months before the show with delivery dates promised taking into account the show inventory. That is how the knife business is run.

Occasionally I will hold back a couple of items to put on the table the second day of the show knowing right well that they will probably end up goin home with me but I accept that because I have a store back home to keep stocked. Not every knifemaker has his own retail outlet so this is a rarely used technique.
 
Think of it in a different way. To the maker, every knife sold is food on the table and shoes for his children. He would not be doing his familial duty if he did not sell his knives at the first opportunity..."a bird in hand is better than two in the bush."

If people would enjoy knives for what they are and stop fixating on the "status" of a "hot maker's" knife they'd be a lot happier. My custom that gets the most use is a $25 blade made from a saw done by an Amish farmer. No crowds around his stall at the farmer's market.
 
Well, based on what some people are suggesting here, there's no point in ever placing a custom order with a maker who has a waiting list. Nor is there any point in trying to buy one of his knives at a knife show after the doors open.

Why bother? Just harass a few makers before every show they attend, act all friendly with them, line up one of their knives, then have a friend or a dealer at the show pick it up for you. Shoot, you don't even need to show up at the show! And all those gentlemen that travelled great distances, paid their admission fee, patiently waited in line, and got nothing... well tough luck, suckerrrrrs! Ha ha haaaaa! You were too stupid to get your knife ahead of time! Now stop whining or I'll come out their and beat the holy crap out of you! Ha ha haaaa!!!!!

Oh, and I'd rather be a "whiner" than an annoying, butt-kissing, line-cutting, people-pushing, "do whatever I have to to get my knife" weasel.

By the way, anyone remember this guy -
Matt Starr, for three days the most wanted man in baseball, has had a change of heart.

Starr, who gained unwanted national attention when he knocked 4-year-old Nick O'Brien of Plano out of the way to get a foul ball during Sunday's Rangers game against St. Louis, said he will give the ball to Nick, write his family a letter of apology and buy them tickets to an upcoming game...

Popular guy!
 
Oh, and I'd rather be a "whiner" than an annoying, butt-kissing, line-cutting, people-pushing, "do whatever I have to to get my knife" weasel.

:rolleyes:
Sounds like sour grapes with no basis for reality to me.

No collector with any brains has ever carried on like that. I have never hassled a maker over a knife nor purchased a knife when a maker was not 100% open to selling it to me. As far as butt-kissing, people pushing do whatever I have to get my knife - dead wrong again wulf. Without exception the makers I work with would not put up with that crap most would shun selling a knife to someone who displayed that type of behavior.

You have some good points until you go off on your generalizations of "moral obligations" and make those type of silly accusations. Those actions take much away from the point you are trying to make (Which still boils down to telling a maker how to conduct their business.) :rolleyes:.

Sorry your diatribe does not make me feel bad at all. If I get a call from a maker before a show that they have something I might be interested in, I will have no guilt at all in buying the knife at any time they want to sell it to me.

If I contact a maker months or years before a show and they offer to sell me a knife that they have made I again will have no guilt.

You can paint me and others who treat this hobby and its people with total respect as you wish. You can try to degrade the gunuine friendships that have been made.

I will stand by my actions and relationships while you grasp at straws and bitch.
 
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