Please help me out on this pre-sell issue

[Jeremy Reynolds]

What exactly did the Matt Starr story have to do with anything on this thread?

Wulf, you are really struggling for good arguements, going back to insults and mud slinging again.

I've come to a conclusion. I found a system that works well for me, and allows me to better spend my time at shows talking with old friends and meeting new ones instead of being caught up in the frenzy.

Wulf, you and I obviously aren't going to agree on this thread. I appreciate you taking my joke and trying to paint me into a heartless ogre only after knives. You truely are a piece of crap.

JR

 

[Jeremy Reynolds]

Gus,

It's quite obvious that Wulf feels he got cheated this year at Blade. He is holding such a huge grudge that he didn't get some of the knives he wanted. He thinks the world should evolve around him.

Let's set aside 2 hours before every show opens as Wulf time. Let him walk through there and buy whatever he wants. Make him feel special. Maybe that will shut him up.

If you can't tell Wulf, I am really tired of your attacks and ignorance right now. You posted earlier you had nothing else to say to me, then you continue to take jabs and personal attacks.

So, let your nuts drop for the first time in your life. Be a man and realize you didn't get what you want and the world doesn't evolve around you.

Besides, are you sure you're not the prick who came up to Kit's table whining and crying there were no knives when I was back there with Mike?

JR

 

[Wulf]

Gus,
Read the story Jeremy posted above. He behaved himself like a gentleman and got run over and pushed out of the way. What did he learn from his experience? He learned that if he didn't want to push back, he would have to employ alternative tactics.

And yes, I've been pushed out of the way too. More than once.Some people have no dignity. No shame.

 

[Wulf]

Jeremy, I don't collect Kit Carson's knives. They seem nice, but they just don't do much for me. If you must know (and you seem to really enjoy making baseless assumptions about me) I collect primarily forged fixed blades by apprentice and journeyman smiths. In fact, I only have one or two mastersmith knives in my collection. What I really enjoy most is finding makers who haven't yet been "discovered" by the mainstream. Last year I bought knives from Burt Foster (a journeyman at the time, just got his MS this year), Nick Wheeler (an apprentice smith), Jason Knight (also an apprentice smith), among others.

So contrary to what some of you seem to believe, I'm actually not after the high demand makers. That's not my focus as a collector. So I'm speaking out not because I have sour grapes or a personal ambition here, I'm speaking out to condemn a practice that, in my opinion, is not very gentlemanlike.

Most folks I know in the custom knife world are gentlemen. Some are not.

 

[Wulf]

Gus, do me a favor, and just read these quotes - all from this thread:

As far as butt-kissing, people pushing do whatever I have to get my knife - dead wrong again wulf. Without exception the makers I work with would not put up with that crap most would shun selling a knife to someone who displayed that type of behavior.

As the maker was pulling out knives, several people began pushing and shoving me and others out of the way. They had set up a system to block everyone else from the table, while one person handed money and knives between the maker and collectors.

From now on, I will make sure I get what I want

Just because you're not smart enough to secure your purchase up front, doesn't mean I'm screwing you over... I make sure I can get what I really want...

If you are not willing to do the things it takes to get the knives you want, stop complaining when you don't get them.

 

[Jeremy Reynolds]

Wulf,

So where do any of those quotes advocate unethical approaches?

The only quote that showed any unethical approaches was the one where that approach was being chastised.

Look, I will do the things it takes to get the knives I wan, within reason. If a maker is selling knives in his room, hotel lobby, stall #5 in the bathroom, etc... and I have the oppertunity to be there to buy one, I will do so. I am not doing anything unethical or out of the norm.

Call the maker in advance. Meet with them in the lobby of the hotel. Shoot them an e-mail. Have a mutual friend introduce you. These are the things it takes to make absolutely certain you get the knives you want. If you are not willing to do those things, stop complaining.

JR

 

[ptgdvc]

Last year I bought knives from Burt Foster (a journeyman at the time, just got his MS this year), Nick Wheeler (an apprentice smith), Jason Knight (also an apprentice smith), among others

Well Wulf, I have not been to Blade, but you better watch out for my beer belly and elbows .
We hunt in the same forest.

I have not bought anything from Burt Foster yet, I have been on Nick Wheeler's list for a year and a half (Hey Nick, you still alive?), and actually I am getting a blade from Jason (JS BTW) BECAUSE it was not finished in time for Blade.

 

[db]

Jeremy Reynolds…
“Besides, are you sure you're not the prick who came up to Kit's table whining and crying there were no knives when I was back there with Mike?”

Wulf…
“Jeremy, I don't collect Kit Carson's knives.”
Doesn’t really answer the question. Does this mean you only want to fondle the knife, show everyone how fast you can flick it open a few times, set it back down and say nice knife then move on and let someone else buy the knife after you had the chance to slobber on it? If I was the guy standing behind you politely waiting my turn so I could buy the knife you were just flicking I’d be a little ticked at you! I personally don’t want anyone flicking my knife.

 

[Wulf]

Doesn’t really answer the question. Does this mean you only want to fondle the knife, show everyone how fast you can flick it open a few times, set it back down and say nice knife then move on and let someone else buy the knife after you had the chance to slobber on it? If I was the guy standing behind you politely waiting my turn so I could buy the knife you were just flicking I’d be a little ticked at you! I personally don’t want anyone flicking my knife.

db, you have GOT to be kidding me.

There were thousands of people at the Blade show. I never once stopped at Kit Carson's table. Now tell me, what on God's green earth makes you think that some guy flicking open a knife at that table was me?

That's as absurd as me asking you if you were the jerk that pushed Jeremy out of the way at the 2002 Blade show.

Now let's get back on topic here. Do you have anything to add?

 

[Bastid]

Yup almost as absurd as some the garbage you have posted.


I more than understand wulf, so when you happen to make friends with a knife maker that sells out quickly, I have the freedom to say that your friendship is based on that makers knives and that you are an ass-kisser who will do anything to get a knife that you want. What a sad world you live in.

 

[Wulf]

You're being totally unreasonable Gus. You are intentionally misrepresenting what I've said here, you're twisting my words around, and it's really beginning to piss me off. I don't know what your motive here is, but I do know this - I've lost a great deal of respect for you during this recent exchange.

Now tell me, how am I to interpret it when someone tells me that he will do whatever it takes to get a knife he wants, and that I'm stupid for not doing the same thing? That I'm stupid for being patient and polite. Huh? Tell me how to interpret that.

And I have said nothing here about any relationships you may have with any knifemakers. Not a single word. So get over yourself, OK? This isn't about you.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

So what is the answer Keith? Tell makers they can't sell until some point in the show?

Nope, I don't think that is the answer. Actually, the only answer may be that I end up not going to any shows. If I don't get what I want out of a show then it doesn't make any sense for me to attend. It just might be that knife shows aren't for me, unless I decide some time that I just want to go to visit and see people.

I hope you don't think that I am whining about makers selling knives at any time they want. I'm not. I think that makers have to look out for themselves and their families. My wants and wishes should not even be a blip on the makers radar screen. Makers don't owe me anything except the knives that I have paid for.

What this all works out to in the end is that each of us has to decide if they are getting what they want out of the knife shows that they attend. If not, maybe going to knife shows isn't worth the time or cost involved. Maybe the money would be better spent somewhere else. For me, if I can't check out the quality of the knives from makers I am interested in then a big part of why I go isn't there.

 

[RWS]

Sounds like sour grapes with no basis for reality to me.

... (Which still boils down to telling a maker how to conduct their business.) .

Actually, these complaints, by me anyway, aren't born out of sour grapes. Maybe pollyanna, but not sour grapes. I have no problem waiting for a knife to be made for me by a maker. I have a problem with going to a show and not having a chance to see the knives certain makers brought to the show that would have made it to his table if they had not been pre-sold before the show doors opened.

Secondly, The other side can also be accused of telling makers how they should run their business.

Isn't one side advocating the pre-selling of knife show inventory and the other side advocating not pre-selling that same inventory? If one side is accused of telling a maker how to run his business how is it the other side can't be accused of the same thing?

Aren't both sides suggesting what the makers should do and not do? If one side of the argument can be accused of telling them how to run their business, how is it possible that the other side can't be accused of the same thing?

One side may argue that the other side of the argument is against the will of the maker.
But, which side is that? Which side is against the true will of the maker?

Are we sure that deep down inside these in demand makers wouldn't truly rather keep their knife show inventory at their table for full retail sale to the showgoing public instead of being approached by a dealer and, out of some awkward sense of obligation to sell those knives, he does so at a discount. Whose side of the argument is really taking money out of the makers pocket?

My suggestions are based purely on my belief that these makers I'm referring to can sell out pretty regularly at most of the shows they attend. I may be wrong.
If I am wrong in this regard, then I think I agree that pre-selling is OK with the hopes of the maker being allowed to keep them at his table through the end of the day Saturday (not Sunday). However, I think I'm right about this, so no pre-sells!

 

[Bastid]

If you loose respect for me because I am pointing out the garbage you have posted here - so be it.

You are taking isolated instances and saying the practices are wide-spread.

You make it sound like fights breaks out with folks trying to buy a knife all the time. I guess I need better glasses to be able so see what you see.

You make it sound like there are dozens of makers who pre-sell at shows with nothing on thier tables when the show opens. Can you name 3 makers where this happend at Blade. I may have missed it.


You make it sound (later corrected the statement) that if a maker does not have knives for sale at a show they are violating some "moral obligation".

You are posting in her telling people how to run there business.

... and you are loosing respect for me? (I've go no problem with that at this point.)

 

[Wulf]

Answer my question, Gus.

How am I to interpret it when someone tells me that he will do whatever it takes to get a knife he wants, and that I'm stupid for not doing the same thing? That I'm stupid for being patient and polite.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Isn't one side advocating the pre-selling of knife show inventory and the other side advocating not pre-selling that same inventory? If one side is accused of telling a maker how to run his business how is it the other side can't be accused of the same thing?

Aren't both sides suggesting what the makers should do and not do? If one side of the argument can be accused of telling them how to run their business, how is it possible that the other side can't be accused of the same thing?

Actually, the other side of this argument is not that makers should pre-sell knives before shows. It is that makers should be the ones that decide how they sell their knives and if they want to sell them before the show opens then that should be up to them.

 

[RWS]

Actually, the other side of this argument is not that makers should pre-sell knives before shows. It is that makers should be the ones that decide how they sell their knives and if they want to sell them before the show opens then that should be up to them.

I'm reading it a little differently coming from their side. I'm reading it that if the maker has the opportunity to pre-sell they really should. That it's better for the maker having guaranteed sales versus the other side which says if they have the opportunity to pre-sell they should not.

 

[RWS]

Actually, I don't believe either side is trying to tell the makers what to do. It will always be up to them that's why I used the term "self-governing" .
This is an argument about perception of fairness.

Edited grammar

 

[db]

wulf only thing I have to ad is, if your as polite at shows as you are in these threads, it's no wonder you have a gripe.So, anyways who is the maker, or makers that had no knives to sell you at the start of the show that has got you so upset? I'm not sure I know of any that sold all of the knives they brought the night before.

 

[Bastid]

First of all I know that you are not stupid (about as far from it as it gets )

I'll answer the question with what I would do since my interpretaion is quite similar to yours without the broad brush strokes that you have made .

Rather act like a jerk toward makers or collectors to get what I want (including making friendships on a pretense ) and rather than telling people how to run their business when I did not get what I wanted, I would and have walked away to continue my hunt for a nice knife either not to return or to return and place an order and wait. (I do that all the time.) It does not matter what I think about preselling.


I am not so small headed to think I should get everything I want when I want it (nor am I small headed enought to think that I am entitled to any thing (including being able to look at someones knives) from any one even if they are friends.) I would not act in the manner described. (Neither would 99 percent of the collectors I know including you nor have I witnessed that many occurances of that behavior to worry about it, in fact when I have witnessed it I just shake my head and laugh at the fools.)

Answer my question Wulf.

How many makers did you see that did not have knives for sale due to preselling at Blade (one or two? out of hundreds). Sorry I do not see it being the big problem that you make it out to be and unlike you, I do not have the knowledge to be able to condem the very few instances where that happens.

I am sorry that you were not able to get everything that you wanted or the one thing you wanted. It happens to me (and just about everyone I know) at every show I have ever attended and it is not the big deal or wide-spread problem that you and others have made it out to be. Not getting what you want when you want it is part of custom knife collecting. The individual reason for it is an experience to learn from or walk away from or both.

My motive:
I have seen too much to agree that your "issue" is a major problem and I refuse to let some of your general and sweeping statements here go unchallenged. Is does matter to me that a maker has the feedom to do what he/she wishes with what he/she makes and I will challenge statements that are contrary to that notion. (implied or explicit.)

Big deal if me or anyone else did not get what they wanted - No.

Place and order and wait and quit going to shows with the expectation that you will always be able to get what you want. If you do so, you will enjoy the hobby to a greater extent than you ever thought possible.

You can make fun of it all you want. The most important thing that I get out of shows is the people. If the most important thing someone else gets out of a show is knives that they want. They are missing the best part of this hobby.