Please help me with burr/wire edge removal

sharpandsafe said:
IDK about this for burr removal. I can't believe that cotton (denim) actually REMOVES a burr - more likely just straightens it out. I do like a similar method for detecting a burr, though, as cotton fuzz will cling to the burr when lightly stropped against the thigh.
Click to expand...

I 'strop' on my jeans as well. But, it only works for very, very fine burrs on steels that aren't very ductile, like simple carbon steel (1095). I tend to do it the most when cleaning up the loose tatters left by the later stages of stropping on compounds. Most stainless blades I've tried aren't fazed by it, until the burrs are extremely fine. Otherwise, if a burr is very heavy, I haven't had any luck removing burrs & wires this way.

And I agree, it is a good way to detect if burrs are there. I think I actually see more value in that, on denim, than in actually being able to remove them with it.


David
 
sharpandsafe said:
Wait, I'll bet Bill's jeans are loaded with diamond dust - that's why the method works so well for him.
Click to expand...

Sometimes I think that may be why it works for me as well. I developed a habit of quickly wiping the blade on my jeans after stropping on compounds. Any compound in a wax or oil binder will cling to the blade somewhat, and so some of that I'm sure has been wiped onto the thighs of my jeans. Diamond, silicon carbide, aluminum oxide, chromium oxide have all been deposited on my jeans, and I'd bet laundering doesn't clean all of it away. Probably got a nice 'witches brew' of abrasive built-in on my pants' legs now. :D


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Sometimes I think that may be why it works for me as well. I developed a habit of quickly wiping the blade on my jeans after stropping on compounds. Any compound in a wax or oil binder will cling to the blade somewhat, and so some of that I'm sure has been wiped onto the thighs of my jeans. Diamond, silicon carbide, aluminum oxide, chromium oxide have all been deposited on my jeans, and I'd bet laundering doesn't clean all of it away. Probably got a nice 'witches brew' of abrasive built-in on my pants' legs now. :D


David
Click to expand...

David,
you and Bill should cut up your old jeans into 1"x6" strips, mount them to aluminum blanks, patent it, and sell them to us for $20 a pop. You could be rich!
 
Nah. Clean jeans. The weave of the fabric sets up a fairly gentle abrasive.
Doesn't straighten the burr, it will actually wipe it off. I've gotten burr slivers
stuck in the fabric. You only need very little pressure.

I start with a Tormek for re-establishing the grind angle, if necessary, then go to
paper wheels. Finish polish on the slotted wheel, strop on leather, and if a paper
test indicates any remaining burr, take it to the jeans. Woo hoo, SHARP! and
polished.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I've been playing around lately with using a couple different compounds on thin cardboard, over glass, for stropping my edges. The compounds I've been using the most are some 3-5µ 'white' Ryobi compound I picked up at HD, and also some Simichrome polishing paste (~ 9µ, per the mfr.). The cardboard I use is the simplest and most easily available, just some kleenex/crackerbox-type stuff, using the inside (unfinished) face. I used a little spray adhesive to lightly tack the cardboard to the glass. The adhesive is a type that allows temporary bonding; spray the cardboard and wait a few minutes for it to become tacky; then just press it to the glass. It can easily be removed & replaced when it gets worn out or too dirty...

David
Click to expand...

:thumbup:Good idea, I will try cardboard from facial-tissue box or some small consumable container. This thin unfinished cardboard on a hard-surface shouldn't up-flex much; however lack of nap/bristle-like will create a different interaction than nappy-leather surface. Next time at HD, I'll look for Ryobi white compound. For now, I will try with bulk white compound (12-15um).

edit: quick strop result: kleenex unfinished-side charged with white compound (AlO 12-15um)
A Mora dulled by a gentle slice into a dmt C - still slice printer paper but not newsprint. Knife got sharp again and the strop is blacken. The strop seem very clogged after this.

Dull the knife again, won't get sharp. Tried to clean the stop by using the knife spine to scrape off the black stuff. Failed. Used knife edge to scoop some black stuff off. Got some off, able to partially see hint of white below. Strop much longer than the first time-> knife got sharp again but with some burrs.

Dull knife again, can't clean the strop. Stropped anyway, failed. Tried to scoop harder using the edge, cut the strop surface in multiple places. The strop is dead.

Stropped this knife using a nap-side of leather loaded with white-compound. This strop had been scraped clean at least 3 times before this test. Knife got sharp w/o burrs. Dull knife, stropped to sharp w/o burrs. Dull knife, scrape off black stuff, stropped to sharp w/o burrs. This strop is cutting a bit slower (slower to blacken).

Hey David/OWE, If you like, send me a 'hello' email to flexdog2008 _ gmail
 
Last edited:
OwE and bluntcut, how was the feedback though on the cardboard? I can imagine that the surface is very thin and slick?
 
awestib said:
OwE and bluntcut, how was the feedback though on the cardboard? I can imagine that the surface is very thin and slick?
Click to expand...
From my test above. It started out quite sticky/grabby on a fresh coat of white compound, then turn toward slick proportionally to the level of blackeness. This blacken-packed thin cardboard strop is slicker than a leather strop with similar level of built up. And stopped working altogether. After that, I also tried (again) on balsa. Balsa behaved almost like leather but resulted with burr and added more than 5*/perside convexity to the edge.

Andy, I still have around 2 lbs of white-compound & over 30ft of leather, if you like, send a 'hello' email.
 
You guys realize that what you are describing is exactly what happens when using the slotted wheel on the paper wheel system. Using the white compound, which quickly turns black, but stropping the knife none the less. I have used the slotted wheel to buff a new Opinel without touching the gritted grinding wheel, and wound up with a razor edge. Then when the knife got dull, ran it again only on the slotted wheel and again razor sharp. No outside additional stropping needed. You can buy just the slotted wheel alone, and not buy the whole system. (About $30) I was using a leather strop after the slotted wheel, and my edges were degrading. Now I only use the slotted wheel for stropping and can re-sharpen a lot of knives without re-grinding, so no loss of metal. (Ok, a minute amount) Try it, you might like it.

Blessings,

Omar
 
OHALLUM said:
You guys realize that what you are describing is exactly what happens when using the slotted wheel on the paper wheel system. Using the white compound, which quickly turns black, but stropping the knife none the less. I have used the slotted wheel to buff a new Opinel without touching the gritted grinding wheel, and wound up with a razor edge. Then when the knife got dull, ran it again only on the slotted wheel and again razor sharp. No outside additional stropping needed. You can buy just the slotted wheel alone, and not buy the whole system. (About $30) I was using a leather strop after the slotted wheel, and my edges were degrading. Now I only use the slotted wheel for stropping and can re-sharpen a lot of knives without re-grinding, so no loss of metal. (Ok, a minute amount) Try it, you might like it.

Blessings,

Omar
Click to expand...
I bought a complete paperwheel kit from grizzbear sometime back. It works so so + impractical to use indoor (mostly at my desk). The RES white-compound is ~ 20% better than the bulk white-compound but costs over 10x.
 
I'm going to have to trade knives around with all of you some time. I have completely different experiences and methods for burr removal than 99% of people who talk about it.

The only stropping that removes a burr for me is power stropping on my belt sander with Sears white compound. Drawing through a board doesnt remove them. Only increasing the angle fairly dramatically (60-80 degrees inclusive) reliably removes a burr on all the steels I deal with. Some dont need that big an angle jump, but it works on them all, so I use it for consistency. I use my Sharpmaker for finishing usually, and deburr then give 10 or so more passes per side. Some steels will whittle head hair after just the medium flats.
 
Me2,

When you raise the angle you create a microbevel correct?

How do you not also create a burr by again using a stone but at a different angle?

To me it seems as if you would be blunting the edge by such great angle change.

I've seen you type down your method several times over the years, I guess I just don't understand the method to the madness :)
 
me2 said:
I'm going to have to trade knives around with all of you some time. I have completely different experiences and methods for burr removal than 99% of people who talk about it.

The only stropping that removes a burr for me is power stropping on my belt sander with Sears white compound. Drawing through a board doesnt remove them. Only increasing the angle fairly dramatically (60-80 degrees inclusive) reliably removes a burr on all the steels I deal with. Some dont need that big an angle jump, but it works on them all, so I use it for consistency. I use my Sharpmaker for finishing usually, and deburr then give 10 or so more passes per side. Some steels will whittle head hair after just the medium flats.
Click to expand...

I concurred that white-compound on beltsander would work well for removing burr.

Pretty much any fast-enough moving abrasives would affectively lower the Abrading-Vector (Av), so when the vector angle is small enough (low pressure + high velocity) the Burr-Formation-Fine effectively is beyond/outside the apex. Therefore a clean edge.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...metry-cross-sectional?p=11390828#post11390828
(post #59)

There are pros & cons on various burr removing technique. Personally, I like low-velocity (manual) and in control, than high-velocity and wear body armor if you're a clumsy or short attention person :D

edit: Good question to me2 about micro-beveling Knifenut1013. Change angle = most likely yield a different result than intended.
 
Last edited:
awestib said:
OwE and bluntcut, how was the feedback though on the cardboard? I can imagine that the surface is very thin and slick?
Click to expand...

Kind of hard to describe. The cardboard is very thin, so the glass underneath the cardboard plays into the feedback as well. In fact, there's a distinct, glassy 'ring' to the stropping when the bevel is flush and the apex just begins to feel the stropping surface. For the cardboard itself, I wouldn't describe the feedback as 'slick'; there's a noticeable 'pull' or drag on the blade edge moving across it, and the compound itself influences that to a great degree. The white Ryobi compound is a little 'stickier' on the surface than the Simichrome, and I'm sure that's due to the wax binder in the Ryobi compound. The Simichrome doesn't contain any wax or oil, so far as I know; it's suspended in an ammonia-based liquid, and that evaporates quickly, leaving just the abrasive 'dust' behind. That feels noticeably slicker on any surface I've used with it (leather, paper, wood, cardboard).


David
 
I'm absolutely convinced, after hangin' around here for a few years and reading about how everybody gets a knife 'sharp', there are at least a million or so variables in determining how a particular method works (for some) and doesn't seem to work as well when attempted in another's hands. Different strengths (literally) in one user's hands, as compared to somebody else, will influence how aggressively a given method/tool/compound seems to work. And then there's speed of stroke, length of stroke, angle of approach, and the 'feel' for the feedback as well, and then how one individual interprets and responds to that feedback.

I'm still trying to figure out how/why the method I posted seems to work so well for me. I tried the same thing (thin cardboard over glass) with some green stick compound on a Schrade 1095 blade yesterday (which is about the sharpest edge I have), and didn't like the results at all. It seemed to round/blunt/over-polish the edge, and the 'bite' quickly left it. Oddly enough, when I use the same exact compound on the 'nap' side of my leather belt (free-hanging), it works great on that same blade. I quickly restored the bite in the edge by going back to the white Ryobi compound on the cardboard/glass; seemed almost automatic in how quickly it worked.

Hey bluntcut, I'm still looking over what you've posted here and 'digesting' your feedback. :) I've gotten quite a lot of inspiration in reading what you've posted, and your 'balanced strop' post from a short while back is what motivated me to try the 'white' compound in a similar technique as demonstrated in your video there. The faster-paced stropping demo'd in your technique has made a difference, which 'looks' less controlled, but really seems to work for me. There's something valuable in that, for sure.


David
 
Blunt,
I think David meant for the Kleenex box strop to be disposable, so I don't think you should be discouraged that it you weren't able to effectively clean it. When you stropped the Mora, did you have the entire primary bevel in contact with the strop? If so, I am not surprised that the strop only lasted for one knife. Have you tried it on anything with a narrower edge bevel? Also, have you tried it with NO compound or with a finer grit compound? I would be interested in hearing your impressions of the Kleenex box on different knives and with different abrasives.

Regarding your "balanced" strop. I don't mean to question your results, but I have a hard time believing you can get a fine razor edge with such a large grit compound. What results have you had with a finer grit compound and a very light touch? In your balanced strop thread, I seem to recall that you had edge rounding. I find it hard to believe that you would see this with such thin leather on a hard backing if you are using a very light touch. What kind of stropping results have you had with a very light touch (weight of the blade only, or even less). Please forgive me, I am really struggling to understand why you have such good results with a course grit when everyone else seems to prefer a very fine grit (even sub-micron).

What kind of leather are you using for your strop, and where can it be obtained?
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Hey bluntcut, I'm still looking over what you've posted here and 'digesting' your feedback. :) I've gotten quite a lot of inspiration in reading what you've posted, and your 'balanced strop' post from a short while back is what motivated me to try the 'white' compound in a similar technique as demonstrated in your video there. The faster-paced stropping demo'd in your technique has made a difference, which 'looks' less controlled, but really seems to work for me. There's something valuable in that, for sure.
Click to expand...

I think the frustrating thing for me, as a scientist, is the theoretical nature of so much of this stuff. I can imagine how a faster stroke might be a more controlled stroke. Yes, my mind can go there, but unless someone can take some high speed footage of fast stropping and slow stropping and compare them frame by frame, it is difficult to know, objectively, what is going on there. I am pleased with the results I can get on a ceramic honing rod after abusing an edge, but I can't understand why, because I am sure my honing angle is not well controlled. I have designed a honing rod controlled-angle device in CAD that I plan to build to compare the result to free-hand honing.

One place my mind just won't go is imagining bluntcut's superior results when stropping using coarse-grit compound. I want detailed analysis using sensitive scientific equipment! I have read some lament in the past not having access to a scanning electron microscope to analyze edge apexes at the micron level. I really identify with that!

On some level, I am happy experimenting until I get the best working edges possible, but part of me will still want to know WHY I got that result with certain methods/tools in an objective and technical sense. I wish I was willing to leave more up to magic and mystery.
 
Yes, I do 'dispose' of the cardboard strops. Kleenex boxes and cracker boxes are in abundance here, so it's not an issue. When I do throw them out, more often it's due to me damaging them (cutting). That aspect is part of why I'm so pleased with the method so far. I occasionally don't lift the blade edge free of the surface quickly enough at end-of-stroke, and if the blade inadvertently moves in the other direction before I do, the edge will go through the cardboard like it isn't even there. :D I've been very lucky so far, in that the blade hasn't yet collided with the glass underneath, when it does cut the cardboard.

I mentioned before about how the quicker speed of stroke seems to influence how well this works, and a faster pace can occasionally bring more cuts in the strop. In that event, a 'cheap' disposable strop is a very good thing. ;)

As with any of my strops (leather, wood, etc), I often wipe much of the black stuff away with a paper towel, and re-apply compound occasionally. Used with some care, even the cardboard can last a while longer this way.


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I'm absolutely convinced, after hangin' around here for a few years and reading about how everybody gets a knife 'sharp', there are at least a million or so variables in determining how a particular method works (for some) and doesn't seem to work as well when attempted in another's hands. Different strengths (literally) in one user's hands, as compared to somebody else, will influence how aggressively a given method/tool/compound seems to work. And then there's speed of stroke, length of stroke, angle of approach, and the 'feel' for the feedback as well, and then how one individual interprets and responds to that feedback.

I'm still trying to figure out how/why the method I posted seems to work so well for me. I tried the same thing (thin cardboard over glass) with some green stick compound on a Schrade 1095 blade yesterday (which is about the sharpest edge I have), and didn't like the results at all. It seemed to round/blunt/over-polish the edge, and the 'bite' quickly left it. Oddly enough, when I use the same exact compound on the 'nap' side of my leather belt (free-hanging), it works great on that same blade. I quickly restored the bite in the edge by going back to the white Ryobi compound on the cardboard/glass; seemed almost automatic in how quickly it worked.

David
Click to expand...

To me a lot of the challenge is in reducing these steel to steel variables in performance. Consistency yields improvement. Generally I'm all over the map trying different techniques. I recall one of my first post on the form a few years back was re my attempts to maintain coarse edges by stropping with 220 grit SiC. I ultimately abandoned it as over time it smoothed out my edge and made it too refined:)
I'm still hard at work figuring out ways to get more uniform performance from finish stropping technique. As you say there are a zillion variables.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top