Please help me with burr/wire edge removal

[HeavyHanded]

I got the multi-pack a while back that has the black, brown, white, and red compounds. Which is best? The black? I read somewhere that you could soften it up with Ronsonol fluid. I tried it and it didn't work well at all. I used a butane lighter to melt some of the buffing compound into mineral oil. This worked, but it was a total PITA.



I tried very light pressure, but the burr kept flipping. The pressure I was using was definitely less than the weight of the knife. I had to use the ultra fine grits to minimize the burr. I could see no way around it

The black works well for (IMHO) maintaining EDU working edges, and repairing or refreshing finer edges as a first step. It also benefits from being mixed with a drop or two of mineral oil. If you're using paper board you can put a drop right on the paper and smear into it with the block of compound. Any clumping can be thinned out with another drop and worked all over the surface. Don't use any more oil than you need, too much and it seriously effects the ability of the abrasive to catch on the paper/leather/natural fiber etc. The Sears white is actually pretty fine stuff - not sub micron but close. A drop of mineral oil rubbed into the block for a few seconds will soften it up. Also you can rub it hard against a piece of cardboard and create a fresh, flat spot on the block - just rub a few times across the strop all in the same direction avoiding overlapping - clumps are to be avoided.

I have my own theories about burr removal - one of them is that you don't want to flip the burr too many times. After 6 or 7 I'd consider a fresh grind and start over. My record is over twenty flips and I threw in the towel - this is also about the time I changed my burr removal philosophy.

Raise burr along one edge, flip and raise along opposite face, backdrag across dowel or edge of bench, remove burr with short light passes. Light because you don't want the burr to just collapse and flip, short passes because you want to stop when its gone and not create a new one. Observe often when removing the burr.

The black compound might be all you need for a fishing knife, leaves a toothy edge that's still fairly refined.

 

[sharpandsafe]

Elevate the angle will mess up your target bevel - i.e. not realistics to stop right when free of burr, therefore a micro-bevel is formed. Keep the same angle but slowly increase pressure to file-off the bent-over burrs until it gone (clean enough). If this burr bented 90* from the apex and you're cutting it off at 15*, not possible for the burr to flip over to other side. Sometime it takes more than a dozen edge-lead strokes to cut-off the burr, just check often.

:thumbup: nice

Thanks for the encouragement!

Don't baby the apex, once you deburred, for honing use edge-lead stroke to keep burr/wire from re-forming.


I am not sure which exactly one you've. I've a craftsman white-diamond-rouge (pretty sure it's a fine grade AlO, not tin). I just tried it again on nap-leather for a Sak blade. After 2 minutes of slightly careless (4-5oz of pressure) strop, I can clearly see the rounded edge, yes it's still sharp along with some tiny burr (after some newsprint slices).
There are a few non-sears white-compound they sell on their online store, so I don't know which exactly is which. So could be this or that or not at all.

I'm not sure what you mean by "don't baby the apex". What do you suggest for honing? Do you suggest using the same grit stone at the same angle as used in the last step of sharpening, and then going to the strop?

I tested the Craftsman white compound last night. This is the Sears-branded stuff, not a third-party product sold through the Sears website. It produced a mirror surface on aluminum with no scratching seen by eye, so I think you are correct that this is a finer grit than the "bulk white compound", but I will test both side by side when I get the bulk compound.

The craftsman white rouge and the bulk white-compound (I use) are very hard, just smear them hard onto the surface, use knife spine (or coin) to break broken small pieces into dust, smear that. ok for the surface to be lumpy, after those lumps got blacken, scrape them off using a knife spine. Continue using the strop. I scrape the surface off 4 or 5 times before re-apply the compound.

Keep in mind, I use this type of strop for these purposes: hone, touch-up, refine/strop(common use) and polishing. For touchup & hone, the whole bevel is being work-on to keep thickness-behind-the-edge the same, rather getting thicker & thicker. With heavy use like this, I get about 10 knives per scrape, i.e. about 50 knives per compound application. Get ~ 2 or 3 light polishing per charge. Get 1 heavy polishing (surface that ended around 1K stone) per charge.

how long do these strops last under this kind of use? When do you have to start over with a fresh piece of leather?

Sometime I use the Razor-Sharp-system (paper-wheel) white rouge, which is a higher quality & abrasive density version the bulk stuff, for a slightly higher level of sharp & shine. $8 for a small chunk at Woodcraft or Grizzly store.

I think I'll get some of this, since it's cheaper to try out a small amount.

 

[sharpandsafe]

The black works well for (IMHO) maintaining EDU working edges, and repairing or refreshing finer edges as a first step. It also benefits from being mixed with a drop or two of mineral oil. If you're using paper board you can put a drop right on the paper and smear into it with the block of compound. Any clumping can be thinned out with another drop and worked all over the surface. Don't use any more oil than you need, too much and it seriously effects the ability of the abrasive to catch on the paper/leather/natural fiber etc. The Sears white is actually pretty fine stuff - not sub micron but close. A drop of mineral oil rubbed into the block for a few seconds will soften it up. Also you can rub it hard against a piece of cardboard and create a fresh, flat spot on the block - just rub a few times across the strop all in the same direction avoiding overlapping - clumps are to be avoided.

I have my own theories about burr removal - one of them is that you don't want to flip the burr too many times. After 6 or 7 I'd consider a fresh grind and start over. My record is over twenty flips and I threw in the towel - this is also about the time I changed my burr removal philosophy.

Raise burr along one edge, flip and raise along opposite face, backdrag across dowel or edge of bench, remove burr with short light passes. Light because you don't want the burr to just collapse and flip, short passes because you want to stop when its gone and not create a new one. Observe often when removing the burr.

The black compound might be all you need for a fishing knife, leaves a toothy edge that's still fairly refined.

Thanks for all this great advice!

I will continue to work on burr removal following this method, and I will test our the black compound in addition to the white compound.

How much pressure do you use when flipping the burr on the dowel? How well do edges hold up in use that are finished this way?

also, what defines a "fresh grind"? Going back to the coarsest stone? How long to sharpen before you consider a "fresh grind" is attained?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Thanks for all this great advice!

I will continue to work on burr removal following this method, and I will test our the black compound in addition to the white compound.

How much pressure do you use when flipping the burr on the dowel? How well do edges hold up in use that are finished this way?

If I've raised a largish burr because I had to do a lot of initial grinding, and I know I'm going to a finer stone, I'll really lean on it a bit. As I move up the scale I use less pressure. If I'm going for a hair whittling edge I use less than the weight of the blade - at that stage I'm really just looking for any defects. At a moderate level of refinement I'm using a modest amount of pressure, nothing crazy. Have to add, I'm nit using the dowel to flip the burr, just to make it stand up extra proud so its easier to remove.

Not everyone agrees on what makes for good edge retention or how long a given edge should last...
Edge retention is all a question of matching the edge to the chore IMHO. Edges should last a reasonable amount of time, and everyone's definition of when a knife becomes "dull" is going to vary. Again, in my opinion the rougher edge will last longer than the fine edge in terms of at what point it becomes useless - you can saw with a rough edge for a long time after it looses its initial bite. OTOH the finer edge cuts nicer and when pressure cutting or chopping will dramatically outperform a coarse edge. General rule - if the edge will be used for draw cutting, or used for somewhat abusive tasks, leave it somewhat rough. If intended for pressure cutting, chopping, or shaving, make it as refined as practical. if intended for utility, give it an edge finish somewhere down the middle of the two extremes - trial and error will guide you.

also, what defines a "fresh grind"? Going back to the coarsest stone? How long to sharpen before you consider a "fresh grind" is attained?

If i really get into a bind I'll scrape the edge across the stone and start over with a medium or coarse stone. That doesn't happen much anymore in this context, but there are times when stropping or backhoning on a waterstone just doesn't get the edge in good shape anymore and then I'll sharpen it up on a medium grit or moderately fine stone - something that can work quickly but still leave a nice edge. If its a toolbox knife - refer to above - I'll hit it on a coarse stone, strop on plain newspaper, and I'm done.