Please help me with burr/wire edge removal

[Obsessed with Edges]

To me a lot of the challenge is in reducing these steel to steel variables in performance. Consistency yields improvement. Generally I'm all over the map trying different techniques. I recall one of my first post on the form a few years back was re my attempts to maintain coarse edges by stropping with 220 grit SiC. I ultimately abandoned it as over time it smoothed out my edge and made it too refined
I'm still hard at work figuring out ways to get more uniform performance from finish stropping technique. As you say there are a zillion variables.

I think that's greatly influencing why it works for me. Over time, I've grown very fond of edge-trailing sharpening in any form. At some point, I became most comfortable with stropping technique specifically; it seems to suit my hands. And I'm always looking for ways to utilize the same, consistent muscle memory on other tools as well. Went from stropping alone, to convexing on sandpaper over leather, and now to this sort of 'in between' honing on the more aggressive compounds and hard-backed stropping material. And in terms of how it 'feels' to my hands, they don't know the difference. They just keep on doing what they've learned to do.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

I think that's greatly influencing why it works for me. Over time, I've grown very fond of edge-trailing sharpening in any form. At some point, I became most comfortable with stropping technique specifically; it seems to suit my hands. And I'm always looking for ways to utilize the same, consistent muscle memory on other tools as well. Went from stropping alone, to convexing on sandpaper over leather, and now to this sort of 'in between' honing on the more aggressive compounds and hard-backed stropping material. And in terms of how it 'feels' to my hands, they don't know the difference. They just keep on doing what they've learned to do.


David

This is the direction I've been headed. After learning to edge trail on JWS, using a lapping board with abrasive slurry, and a host of other stropping methods I actually feel that stropping on a hard backing is easier than stropping on a resilient backing, right up to those JWS. Very versatile.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

One place my mind just won't go is imagining bluntcut's superior results when stropping using coarse-grit compound. I want detailed analysis using sensitive scientific equipment! I have read some lament in the past not having access to a scanning electron microscope to analyze edge apexes at the micron level. I really identify with that!

On some level, I am happy experimenting until I get the best working edges possible, but part of me will still want to know WHY I got that result with certain methods/tools in an objective and technical sense. I wish I was willing to leave more up to magic and mystery.

Abrasive size is just one variable in a large matrix of sharpening interaction variables. This variable didn't (hand waving here) correlated to a deeper abraded depth. Why not? Well, other abrasive variables/attributes, such as shape; hardness; friability; toughness; binding; etc, perhaps played bigger role. Of course many other variables are not mentioned here.

In an ideal world, we get visual confirmation/validation to match up with our data. It would be easier and cool to have a SEM. However without one, we can infer our edge data by compare against known reference blades (e.g. DE razor blade) thickness & failure modes. A much easier task to do this than locating planets from wobbled stars.

For me, yes to 'hand-waving physics', no to voodoo/magic stuff.

 

[sharpandsafe]

'hand-waving physics' = voodoo/magic stuff

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

'hand-waving physics' = voodoo/magic stuff

voodoo/magic = trust me :barf:

hand-waving physics = attempt to reasons using emperical data however w/o formal mathematical proof

 

[me2]

Me2,

When you raise the angle you create a microbevel correct?

How do you not also create a burr by again using a stone but at a different angle?

To me it seems as if you would be blunting the edge by such great angle change.

I've seen you type down your method several times over the years, I guess I just don't understand the method to the madness

I only do one or two very light passes on each side, less than the weight of the knife, just to cut off the burr. Then I go back to the regular angle and alternating light passes. I go 220 grit hoh stone, then 20 or so passes on the Sharpmaker, then check for remaining burr, deburr if needed, then 10ish passes per side and done. The angle inceases 3ish degrees per side from hoh stone to Sharpmaker. I progress to the fine white triangles for fun sometimes.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Hey bluntcut, I'm still looking over what you've posted here and 'digesting' your feedback. I've gotten quite a lot of inspiration in reading what you've posted, and your 'balanced strop' post from a short while back is what motivated me to try the 'white' compound in a similar technique as demonstrated in your video there. The faster-paced stropping demo'd in your technique has made a difference, which 'looks' less controlled, but really seems to work for me. There's something valuable in that, for sure.


David

I just tried Ryobi white & stainless compounds. Result as follow

White compound (2-5um) Al2O3, applied about 8oz of stropping pressure. Knives: Mora & Endura-vg10
* on kleenex cardboard. Edge got sharper but some burr and edge got rounded a few degrees. Visible via loupe. Started out some compound keep sticking to the blade.
* on leather smooth/skinside. Same as cardboard but w/o sticking much.
* on leather nap/fleshside. Edge got very fine & sharp but some burr and rounded a another few degrees. No sticking to the blade at all.

Stainless compound (I was suspecting that this stuff was the same as my bulk white-compound). Well, this one acts like a glue stick.
* kleenex cardboard. PITA sticking, especially close to the apex and impossible to wipe off. Let call this failed due to my temper
* leather smoothside. Still sticking but not as much, once settled/obsorped in it works fine. Good sharp edge + some burr + tiny rounding
* leather napside. No sticking. Edge got quite sharp (a bit more slicing noise than white-compound on napleather), no burr and no rounding.

I noticed that both Ryobi's white & stainless compounds cut slowly on leather napside than the bulk white-compound (12-15um) I normally use. I think, this 2 Ryobi compounds are designed for a cloth buffer, so they are sticky and low abrasive density. I bought my bulk white-compound from usa knife maker.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Today I re-tested the Autosol again, but some of it has dried off at the tube's opening. Dug them out and reapply to the tissue box cardboard. Used cupboard top, which is wood (flat) as backing.

Result is so so, no rounding, but the edge is not as sharp as coming off rough side of leather with bluntcut's compound.

Keep learning

Add: home made portable strop, just got residue scrubbed off.

 

[russianpolander]

I have been following this thread and have a few notes that may or may not be of interest. I work in a paper converting factory and we use most forms of cardboard and white lined chipboard( what the Kleenex boxes are made from ) and they are made of different materials. Cardboard, when referring to most boxes such as a USPS mailing box, is actually corrugated fiberboard. Usually it is made from recycled cardboard now but also wood fibers as it was originally. Sometimes there can be lots of materials in the recycled mix like hot glue and even fiberglass particles from the reinforced board. The chip board, Kleenex boxes and cereal boxes and their like, is very different. They are made from mostly waste paper and recycled fiber and are low grade. They have two or three layers of coatings on the outside and one on the inside with the paper and fiber mix in between. There is also mineral oil in the chipboard that is used in the recycling process. Neither one of these would be my first choice for cheap stropping backers but I can see why some may use them. I don't know if any of my drivel here will help or not but forgive me as I seldom get to throw my work into a knife conversation.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I just tried Ryobi white & stainless compounds. Result as follow

White compound (2-5um) Al2O3, applied about 8oz of stropping pressure. Knives: Mora & Endura-vg10
* on kleenex cardboard. Edge got sharper but some burr and edge got rounded a few degrees. Visible via loupe. Started out some compound keep sticking to the blade.
* on leather smooth/skinside. Same as cardboard but w/o sticking much.
* on leather nap/fleshside. Edge got very fine & sharp but some burr and rounded a another few degrees. No sticking to the blade at all.

Stainless compound (I was suspecting that this stuff was the same as my bulk white-compound). Well, this one acts like a glue stick.
* kleenex cardboard. PITA sticking, especially close to the apex and impossible to wipe off. Let call this failed due to my temper
* leather smoothside. Still sticking but not as much, once settled/obsorped in it works fine. Good sharp edge + some burr + tiny rounding
* leather napside. No sticking. Edge got quite sharp (a bit more slicing noise than white-compound on napleather), no burr and no rounding.

I noticed that both Ryobi's white & stainless compounds cut slowly on leather napside than the bulk white-compound (12-15um) I normally use. I think, this 2 Ryobi compounds are designed for a cloth buffer, so they are sticky and low abrasive density. I bought my bulk white-compound from usa knife maker.

A couple drops of mineral oil will loosen up the Ryobi yellow compound. I found as you did - the stuff is like glue stick at regular temps when applying by hand.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Today I re-tested the Autosol again, but some of it has dried off at the tube's opening. Dug them out and reapply to the tissue box cardboard. Used cupboard top, which is wood (flat) as backing.

Result is so so, no rounding, but the edge is not as sharp as coming off rough side of leather with bluntcut's compound.

Keep learning

Add: home made portable strop, just got residue scrubbed off.

Chris, your strop has good fuzzy/fiberies surface -> nice! What kind of edge-grain is it?

HeavyHanded's paper end-grain strop has similar look. I tried HH construct, got good results and accidentally found the white-compound worked well for stropping.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

A couple drops of mineral oil will loosen up the Ryobi yellow compound. I found as you did - the stuff is like glue stick at regular temps when applying by hand.

HH - aha, now that was you written about this before - my feebling memory failed to recall. I will re-test the stainless compound with some mineral oil.

russianpolander - Good info, appreciated. Which composite papers would be good strop candidates, you think?

 

[russianpolander]

^ Realistically, I do not think any paper products are good candidates for stropping. Leather is still the best choice and has been so for a reason. I liken paper stropping to sharpening with a coffee mug or concrete block, it may be acceptable for some but not most people.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Blunt,

No idea on grit size. I cut off coffee boxes, stack them together and the edge is used for stropping. I'm guessing it's more or less same with tissue box cardboard.

After all the use and built up, this is the first time I scrub it off, with back of cheap kitchen knife.

Result has been good with autosol, will try white compound sometime later.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

^ Realistically, I do not think any paper products are good candidates for stropping. Leather is still the best choice and has been so for a reason. I liken paper stropping to sharpening with a coffee mug or concrete block, it may be acceptable for some but not most people.

If leather is of good quality and used bare, I could agree, and usually would. But with compound, there are so many other good options out there, and none of them have to be specialized.

I've actually moved away from leather and towards some paper/cardboard for stropping with compound, based on the better edges I've produced with it. Not just acceptable, but noticeably improved. Much of that is due to a dissatisfaction with the relative softness of the leather itself, for me personally. Dedicated stropping leathers (like barber strops) can be very firm, but also require a lot of prep to make them so, or more $$ to obtain it. And using high-grade leather with compound is a waste of expensive leather. So long as the backing is very firm or hard, it doesn't matter nearly as much what substrate is used to hold the compound, so long as it gives the compound something to hold onto. I still finish up with a few passes on bare leather, occasionally; it suits some steels better than others, if used without compound. There's obviously a lot of variability in paper and cardboard and wood, etc, and some don't work as well. But that variability also means some do work very well, if one is willing to keep experimenting with different options.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

I've gotten and continue to get very good results stropping on paper. IMHO it should be good quality, uncoated. Whether its thicker board or text weight doesn't seem to matter a whole lot. Items that have already been printed are usually going to have some form of varnish on the glossy side. Newspaper seems to work well too. I've had good luck finish stropping on plain copy paper, and have gotten good results from linen writing paper. Many uncoated (and coated) papers have silica and titanium oxide along with a host of whiteners and binders. Results might be inconsistent from sample to sample - figure out what works and try to stick with it. Another thought - many mfgs source by the cheapest possible supply, sources of paper/board for the same product might vary considerably from run to run.

 

[sharpandsafe]

Hello. It's me again. I have tried the following to remove my stubborn wire edge: elevated angle on stone with light edge leading, elevated angle on ceramic with light edge leading, cutting through pine board, using bluntcut's method of scraping the edge along a hardwood dowel to fold the burr over and then grind off using very light edge leading (diamond stone) - I used medium-high pressure on the (handheld) dowel - I was unable to grind off the burr - it just kept flipping on me.

The best I have been able to do is to minimize the burr using the Edge Pro polishing strips (I haven't put together a strop yet) after very gently folding the burr over on hardwood dowel. I steepened the angle to 17-deg per side on diamond stones first. There may be a tiny burr still present, but it is almost imperceptible. I can cleanly push-cut newsprint and phonebook paper with the grain only - not against. This is a fishing knife and I just want to be confident that I have a sharp and DURABLE working edge. I think I am most concerned about having a weak edge that will dull quickly (again, this knife is 154 CM steel). Is this steel particular prone to forming stubborn wire-edges? Is there anything else I need to do to get the edge I desire?

I plan to put a couple of strops together soon. I ordered the horse butt strips and I have a white buffing compound stick from Craftsman tools (Sears). Bluntcut, do you think this is the same as the white compound you use? The hard stick is difficult to apply - it's very hard. Is there any way to soften it? Is there a source available for a similar compound in a past, liquid or powder form?

Thanks!

 

[HeavyHanded]

Hello. It's me again. I have tried the following to remove my stubborn wire edge: elevated angle on stone with light edge leading, elevated angle on ceramic with light edge leading, cutting through pine board, using bluntcut's method of scraping the edge along a hardwood dowel to fold the burr over and then grind off using very light edge leading (diamond stone) - I used medium-high pressure on the (handheld) dowel - I was unable to grind off the burr - it just kept flipping on me.

The best I have been able to do is to minimize the burr using the Edge Pro polishing strips (I haven't put together a strop yet) after very gently folding the burr over on hardwood dowel. I steepened the angle to 17-deg per side on diamond stones first. There may be a tiny burr still present, but it is almost imperceptible. I can cleanly push-cut newsprint and phonebook paper with the grain only - not against. This is a fishing knife and I just want to be confident that I have a sharp and DURABLE working edge. I think I am most concerned about having a weak edge that will dull quickly (again, this knife is 154 CM steel). Is this steel particular prone to forming stubborn wire-edges? Is there anything else I need to do to get the edge I desire?

I plan to put a couple of strops together soon. I ordered the horse butt strips and I have a white buffing compound stick from Craftsman tools (Sears). Bluntcut, do you think this is the same as the white compound you use? The hard stick is difficult to apply - it's very hard. Is there any way to soften it? Is there a source available for a similar compound in a past, liquid or powder form?

Thanks!

The Sears white is actually pretty fine stuff, you'd do well to pick up some of the black as well. A drop of mineral oil will soften it up - either applied to the strop, or just rub some on the block and work it in for a few seconds.

Also, consider the size of the burr as you attempt to work it off. The lightest pressure is all that's needed, not even the weight of the knife. You want to apply enough pressure that the abrasive can do its job, not enough pressure that it flips.

You might want to consider a coarser edge strategy for the knife in question, maybe stop around 320 grit, 600 tops.

 

[sharpandsafe]

The Sears white is actually pretty fine stuff, you'd do well to pick up some of the black as well. A drop of mineral oil will soften it up - either applied to the strop, or just rub some on the block and work it in for a few seconds.

I got the multi-pack a while back that has the black, brown, white, and red compounds. Which is best? The black? I read somewhere that you could soften it up with Ronsonol fluid. I tried it and it didn't work well at all. I used a butane lighter to melt some of the buffing compound into mineral oil. This worked, but it was a total PITA.

Also, consider the size of the burr as you attempt to work it off. The lightest pressure is all that's needed, not even the weight of the knife. You want to apply enough pressure that the abrasive can do its job, not enough pressure that it flips.
You might want to consider a coarser edge strategy for the knife in question, maybe stop around 320 grit, 600 tops.

I tried very light pressure, but the burr kept flipping. The pressure I was using was definitely less than the weight of the knife. I had to use the ultra fine grits to minimize the burr. I could see no way around it

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Hello. It's me again. I have tried the following to remove my stubborn wire edge: elevated angle on stone with light edge leading, elevated angle on ceramic with light edge leading, cutting through pine board, using bluntcut's method of scraping the edge along a hardwood dowel to fold the burr over and then grind off using very light edge leading (diamond stone) - I used medium-high pressure on the (handheld) dowel - I was unable to grind off the burr - it just kept flipping on me.

Elevate the angle will mess up your target bevel - i.e. not realistics to stop right when free of burr, therefore a micro-bevel is formed. Keep the same angle but slowly increase pressure to file-off the bent-over burrs until it gone (clean enough). If this burr bented 90* from the apex and you're cutting it off at 15*, not possible for the burr to flip over to other side. Sometime it takes more than a dozen edge-lead strokes to cut-off the burr, just check often.

There may be a tiny burr still present, but it is almost imperceptible. I can cleanly push-cut newsprint and phonebook paper with the grain only - not against.

:thumbup: nice

I think I am most concerned about having a weak edge that will dull quickly (again, this knife is 154 CM steel). Is this steel particular prone to forming stubborn wire-edges? Is there anything else I need to do to get the edge I desire?

Don't baby the apex, once you deburred, for honing use edge-lead stroke to keep burr/wire from re-forming.

I plan to put a couple of strops together soon. I ordered the horse butt strips and I have a white buffing compound stick from Craftsman tools (Sears). Bluntcut, do you think this is the same as the white compound you use?

I am not sure which exactly one you've. I've a craftsman white-diamond-rouge (pretty sure it's a fine grade AlO, not tin). I just tried it again on nap-leather for a Sak blade. After 2 minutes of slightly careless (4-5oz of pressure) strop, I can clearly see the rounded edge, yes it's still sharp along with some tiny burr (after some newsprint slices).
There are a few non-sears white-compound they sell on their online store, so I don't know which exactly is which. So could be this or that or not at all.

The hard stick is difficult to apply - it's very hard. Is there any way to soften it? Is there a source available for a similar compound in a past, liquid or powder form?

The craftsman white rouge and the bulk white-compound (I use) are very hard, just smear them hard onto the surface, use knife spine (or coin) to break broken small pieces into dust, smear that. ok for the surface to be lumpy, after those lumps got blacken, scrape them off using a knife spine. Continue using the strop. I scrape the surface off 4 or 5 times before re-apply the compound.

Keep in mind, I use this type of strop for these purposes: hone, touch-up, refine/strop(common use) and polishing. For touchup & hone, the whole bevel is being work-on to keep thickness-behind-the-edge the same, rather getting thicker & thicker. With heavy use like this, I get about 10 knives per scrape, i.e. about 50 knives per compound application. Get ~ 2 or 3 light polishing per charge. Get 1 heavy polishing (surface that ended around 1K stone) per charge.

Sometime I use the Razor-Sharp-system (paper-wheel) white rouge, which is a higher quality & abrasive density version the bulk stuff, for a slightly higher level of sharp & shine. $8 for a small chunk at Woodcraft or Grizzly store.