Please look at this and tell me if I am wrong

Originally posted by Les Robertson
Hi Guys, The Zealot here!



Melvin, I am not down on Randall's I suspect that I have owned more of them than most people participating in this. However, as a collector when I found out how they were built, I sold them all.

Yes, Melvin it is important that there are those who will defend their position. Will I defend my position at any cost? No. I am always looking for accuracy and the truth. Remember I am one of those people AG calls a "Stickler". You have to give me credit, I take the same stance every time. No fence walking here.

Melvin, I have held my position on this topic since the inception of BF. I have to say, fewer and fewer people are joining in to take their shot at me. So this indicates to me that at least some people "get it". At the end of the day, that is the best you can hope for.

Melvin, one last thing. Imagine how this thread would go if I said that I agree with those here and that I do consider Randall Knives custom knives. How many people would then be using my name when people told them that Randall's were not custom knives. You would hear comments like "even Les Robertson says they are custom knives".
Click to expand...
Les:

When you "found out" how Randall knives were built, was it because you were
told or did you visit and see something other than pure hand work was going
into every segment of making the knives?

If you did not visit the shop and see for yourself, then you do not deserve the
great regard with which you are held. If you did indeed visit the shop then
you are for some reason lying to us.

Why do I have to ask this question? I could sell three times as many Randalls as
I can get, my customers do not worship you (or me for that matter) I think it is
unfair that for whatever reason you choose to try to destroy a company that is
one of the foundation stones of our industry. None of my friends seem to have
the strength to carry this issue. I do. Why not admit you have never been to
Randall's shop, go down and visit, explain to Gary what an important person
you are and if he does not recognize how important it is that you view his shop,
have him call me and I will explain. Once you have seen the shop and how the
work is done You will be able to change your stance, without losing face.

Now can we get back to being civil.

A. G.
 
A.G. - I believe that you have missed the point of this discussion. "Custom" knife has a widely held understanding as something other than "handmade" knife. As I earlier noted, no one disputes what is meant by handmade, nor has anyone disparaged knives so described. Randalls and Reeve knives, for example, are properly sought after and considered great values. In usage here, however, they're not considered custom because they're not crafted by a single person. Ol' Henry Ford came up with the concept - a 'production' line - which is why they're called production knives when two or more fellows put them together sequentially.

Turn the question around - how do you differentiate between two handcrafted knives that are made differently. Reeve & company make a damn fine handmade production knife. Terzuola makes a damn fine handmade custom knife. Simple, no? How else can the market place know how they were made?

Again, why is it important? I, for one, value a single man's efforts much more highly in this regard than a talented group of men doing it commtittee style.

Lastly, your most recent few posts have the pot calling the kettle black insofar as civility is concerned. Physician, heed thine ownself!
 
Les, as much as I like you personaly, and as good as I think you do what you do. I think your myopic view of the knife industry and your lack of respect for any and all opposing views isn't going to win you any friends or customers.

A.G. I had the chance to meet you and Goldie for the first time at Blade Show. I was introduced to you by P.J. Tomes in the bar area of the hotel. For me it was an honor to meet you, right up there with meeting Bill Moran for the first time. Between you and Les as a knife industry expert, my guess would be you've probably forgotten more than he'll ever know. I would also think that his lack of respect for you isn't shared by many if any here. I think he just saw a chance to take a pot-shot at you and went for it. Don't expect an apology from him or for him to back down, I don't think it's in him.
 
Les...just a quick question, how do you classify your vanguard series, are they custom?handmade?benchmade? just wondering.
Walt (aka Suvorov)
ps:Spark yeah I said I wouldn't come back back but like a smack addict we tend to go back to the same dealers
 
Originally posted by jbravo
A.G. - I believe that you have missed the point of this discussion. "Custom" knife has a widely held understanding as something other than "handmade" knife. As I earlier noted, no one disputes what is meant by handmade, nor has anyone disparaged knives so described. Randalls and Reeve knives, for example, are properly sought after and considered great values. In usage here, however, they're not considered custom because they're not crafted by a single person. Ol' Henry Ford came up with the concept - a 'production' line - which is why they're called production knives when two or more fellows put them together sequentially.

Turn the question around - how do you differentiate between two handcrafted knives that are made differently. Reeve & company make a damn fine handmade production knife. Terzuola makes a damn fine handmade custom knife. Simple, no? How else can the market place know how they were made?

Again, why is it important? I, for one, value a single man's efforts much more highly in this regard than a talented group of men doing it commtittee style.

Lastly, your most recent few posts have the pot calling the kettle black insofar as civility is concerned. Physician, heed thine ownself!
Click to expand...

Bravo:

Sorry, it was Ely Whitney who invented the "Production Line" a production line
is a place where workers assemble parts already produced by machine to
tolerances that allow them to be readily fitted together.

Are you sure that you know how different Reeves and Turzola make their knives. Have you been allowed into their shops? Have you ever visited any knife shop?

I have not been rude to you and only replied to Les in kind. If I have to teach
you history as well as English we will be a long time understanding each other.
What do you expect of me?

The only thing I know of you is that you do not understand the meaning of the
word "Custom" try a dictionary. You do not seem to understand that
handmade means holding either the tool or the part in the hand when they are
applied to each other. If you will be civil to me I will be to you.

A. G.
 
Well, after having read all of the above over my lunch, I find that one perspective that does not seem to have been specifically included in the "Custom" vs. "Production" nonsense is that the word "Custom" is a marketing term that the "Professionals" are using in an attempt to create value for their products.

I have been a ceramic sculptor (never earned a living from it) and my lifelong profession is as an architect. So I have seen this same argument played out using different terminology to debate the "value" of individual craft (and design) over "mass-production" (read "team").

This debate is really over business models. One-person shop vs. work by a team. Would the Randall shop be producing "Custom" knives if the workers (employees) owned a small percentage of the business? I think so. If the owner of a one-person shop doesn't clean up their shop, answer the phone and take out the trash (while forging and grinding steel), then they are really just part of a team, because the whole manufacturing process includes all these other mundane tasks, without which the knife could not be produced and sold.

I believe that the underlying message in the original post by A.G. Russell points up the fact that "custom" means "as designed by the buyer". The Guild, bless their souls, and Mr. Robertson by his citing of it are engaged in the same mythmaking that accompanies the creating of any profession - definitions that increase the value of the profession to the general public.

I believe in the beauty and mysticism of art as much as individual artist. The harsh reality is that when you start selling your "Custom" stuff (products), you are governed by the same rules as the factory stuff; they will each find their value in the marketplace.

I personally do not think that the infinitesimal categorizations that the owner of Bladeforums.com has introduced in the last week are all that desireable, but I do appreciate having these forums. My suggestion to Bladeforums is that the categories should be more rational - "Knives under $50"; "Knives between $50 and $150"; "Knives between $150 and $400"; "Everything else". If the makers of custom knives are truly creating value, then they will rise to the top.

Thanks for the opportunity to share.
 
Originally posted by GeneL74
Perhaps I am mistaken, but doesn't Bob Loveless refer to his own knives as being "Benchmade"? And, assuming my memory serves me correctly, where would "Benchmade" knives fall into the fray?

Would it be possible from now on to start including the term "Benchmade" into these custom, semi-custom, handmade, production, semi-production arguments?

I think this is only appropriate, and, with the Benchmade Knife Company, it will only put a whole new spin on the points that we'll have to fuss, argue, whine, cry, and start shit about!!! The possibilites are endless!

:D
Click to expand...


Gene:

Good questions, I wish they were all this apropos and polite.

Yes, when Bob wrote his first catalog (1968-70) he had no way of knowing that
someone would trademark the term he lifted from the British Gun Industry,
Benchmade meant hand made, bob thought Benchmade more elegant. Les
deAsis thought that he could give the impression of his factory knives being
handmade with the use of the single word, brilliant business move. Too bad
about what it does to the handmade knife business.

I am sorry, you will have to explain to me what semi custom and
semi production means.
Either the customer had some input into how the item was made or he did not.
The item was either production made or it was not.

William Henry is a production knife and a great one. Worth every penny it
costs. There are other great knife lines out there who are ashamed of making
production knives or think they can increase their sales so they call them selves
custom or semi custom or semi production because they cannot call them selves
hand made with out being guilty of fraud.

A. G.
 
A.G.,

The previous post I made to this thread was just a pathetic attempt at being sarcastic, and perhaps a little humorous.... I meant no disrespect to you, and I hope none was taken.... I would also like to thank you for taking the time to help clear things up!

It really irks me everytime I read posts by "self proclaimed" experts that are never wrong about anything... Especially when they absolutely REFUSE to respect other folks opinions! They are right, everyone else is wrong, and there is no debating the subject... WTF is that all about?

In the end, I totally agree with you on this subject... If I order something that is made to my specs, I consider that item to be custom made, whether the item be a knife, a pair of boots, or a rice bowl.... Personally, I don't see what's so hard about it, I suppose some folks just like being right... Or, is that, hate being wrong? Either way, I am right (In my own mind, that is) and I have very little respect for anyone who will try their best to convince me that "their way of thinking" is the only way.... Those folks probably don't care, but perhaps some of them should.... Not on my account, mind you, but on the countless others they are offending...

I read Bob Loveless' book, "Living on the Edge" by Al Williams, and I think that was where I read the term "Benchmade" when Bob referred to his knives... How or why Bob came to referring to his knives that way, I did not know, but I thank you for the story...
 
This has been quite a thread. The problem with it is that nothing resembling any resolution has come of it. That may be due to the fact that the only person whose opinion is of real significance hasn't chimed in -- Spark.

As someone pointed out fairly early in this thread, Spark made an effort to simplify the decision process as to which forum a would-be seller should use to list his/her knife. I may be way off base here, but I think he used what I see as the functioning definition of a custom knife as one made by an individual who makes his/her living by making and selling knives. I think he probably meant for all the knives made in a process by multiple people, knives that are not one of a kind, that they should be listed in the forum titled Production.

It seems to me a very simple pair of definitions, made to simplify and streamline as much as possible the process of selling knives on Blade Forums.

I seem to recall Spark writing something to the effect of how frustrating all the problems of the exchange forums are for him. He's trying to run a knife selling business, and simultaneously provide the bandwidth necessary for us all to enjoy shared communication about knives. This, the other thread linked, and the three other described threads on other forums are making no effort to solve any problems and make things run smoothly for Spark, and ultimately us. Instead, we're wafting about in the ether of semantics, some because it is of financial significance for them, some to display their knowledge, and others who apparently enjoy arguing. There is nothing wrong with any of those activities, properly placed. I think this is the wrong place.

I think we need to turn our efforts into making the forums a successful operation, so that we may keep them, and enjoy them. I don't think we need to be posting 3 or 4 page threads of semantic arguments.

Spark -- please put an end to this, and tell us once and for all the definitions you want for the categories of knife sales you created. Hopefully, we can then drop it as a subject.
 
quote:

Originally posted by jbravo
A.G. - I believe that you have missed the point of this discussion. "Custom" knife has a widely held understanding as something other than "handmade" knife. As I earlier noted, no one disputes what is meant by handmade, nor has anyone disparaged knives so described. Randalls and Reeve knives, for
example, are properly sought after and considered great values. In usage here, however, they're not considered custom because they're not crafted by a single person. Ol' Henry Ford came up with the concept - a 'production' line - which is why they're called production knives when two or more fellows put them together sequentially. Turn the question around - how do you differentiate between two handcrafted knives that are made differently. Reeve & company make a damn fine
handmade production knife. Terzuola makes a damn fine handmade custom knife. Simple, no? How else can the market place know how they were made? Again, why is it important? I, for one, value a single man's efforts much more highly in this regard than a talented group of men doing it commtittee style.
Lastly, your most recent few posts have the pot calling the kettle black insofar
as civility is concerned. Physician, heed thine ownself!




Bravo:

Sorry, it was Ely Whitney who invented the "Production Line" a production line is a place where workers assemble parts already produced by machine to tolerances that allow them to be readily fitted together.

Are you sure that you know how different Reeves and Turzola make their knives. Have you been
allowed into their shops? Have you ever visited any knife shop?
I have not been rude to you and only replied to Les in kind. If I have to teach you history as well as English we will be a long time understanding each other. What do you expect of me?

The only thing I know of you is that you do not understand the meaning of the word "Custom" try a dictionary. You do not seem to understand that handmade means holding either the tool or the part in the hand when they are applied to each other. If you will be civil to me I will be to you.

A. G.

To all who have read these posts.
I have apologized to Jbravo in private but if he felt badly enough to email me and tell me that I had insulted him then I must owe him a public apology as well.

While the words of my post are all true, there is no question that I could have arranged then better. I am most sincerely sorry that I have injured his feelings.
A. G. Russell
 
Hmmm...

It could be that adding an additional Forum for "Handmade" knives is the answer?

We asked James Nowka for a "Military Knives" Forum at KFC last night, and within a few hours it was up and running, with Mike Silvey signed on as a moderator. It didn't seem like a big deal to James, and thus I don't understand why it would be a big deal to Kevin.

Kevin, any comments you'd have on such a possibility would be greatly appreciated here.

When I first got involved in this whole "Custom" vs. "Production" business, I was simply asking why a "Handmade" knife such as a Randall should be listed under the "Production" category; when some Randall's, such as those made to a customer's specification were obviously "Custom"

What I got was a "Because I said so, and I'm following the KMG guidelines as well" kind of response from Mr. Robertson. I thought that response was inaccurate, unfair, and somewhat rude.

Possibly that type of behavior is considered appropriate when dealing with FNG's, whether or not the realization that FNG's will in the long run determine the successful growth of "Our" hobby, and for some people, their financial well being.

I was taken back by what I perceived to be a rather obvious short term outlook on the part of the poster. I was totally appalled when I saw the same attitude delivered towards other persons, persons of considerable stature in the knife community.

This was never intended to be a "Let's slam Les" thread, and I'm truly sorry that through his comments and attitude he has allowed it to become such.

To the contrary, Mr. Robertson seems to be acknowledged as a professional businessman with substantial ties to both the "Custom" and "Handmade" segments of of the knife making/reselling community.

On the other hand, to be in the position to make a determination on which knives qualify as "Custom" via his position as a BFC moderator, and to steer the forum that he hosts towards that segment of the industry that he is financially vested in, his "Custom" knife resale business, I found that to be rather disingeneous...i.e. "Wrong"

It's been determined that Mr. Robertson was both incorrect with regards to guild guidelines, and the commonly recognized meaning, of what actually constitutes a "Custom" knife.

Futhermore, if a person is going to take on a cavalier, "devil may care", attitude towards others, they should have their facts in order before exposing their ignorance in full public view. At the "bare" minimum, they should at least read AND understand the posts of others before responding.

This isn't an indictment of Les, if anything it's constructive criticism; to wit, showing him the error of his ways, so as to insure that we're "all" playing off the same sheet of music. Heck, we all make mistakes from time to time. Les is no different than any of us on that score...well, maybe a little harder headed at times... ;)

In short, my position remains, that whereas some Randall's ARE "Custom" knives; and whereas some Randall's are "Handmade" knives, for which no "For Sale" category currently exists at BFC, then by default Randall's should still be listed in the "Custom" knife category until which time a "Handmade" category is created.

End of Sermon.

Be nice! I know it's hard, it's hard for all of us, but be nice!


"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes - and ships - and sealing wax -
Of cabbages - and kings -
And why the sea is boiling hot -
And whether pigs have wings."

"The Walrus and the Carpenter", from "Through the Looking Glass"

- Lewis Carroll -
 
Ok, it's not really this hard. Spark, how about chaging the name of the "custom knives for sale" to "handmade knives for sale"?
AG, I don't doubt you've been to the Randall shop, but are you sure each employee makes a knife from start to finish? This is not how it's been mentioned in different mags and books over the years.
Guys, we should be able to discuss this without all the excess BS that wouldn't happen if this was being discussed face to face. Obviously, Les has his reasons for his definition of Randall's, just as AG has his for his Randall's. They each sell alot of knives. BUT, we are the guys spending the money, so just buy what you like. Personally, I own Randall's, handmades, and custom, but regardless, they are all knives that suit my tastes, and that's my bottom line.
Spark can break up the for sale forums any way he chooses, but that doesn't mean he's the only one who can make these definitions.
So, the way I see it:
1-production
2-handmade(regardless of how many hands)
3-custom(made to order)

Thanks,
Dave
 
Originally posted by lifter4Him
Ok, it's not really this hard. Spark, how about chaging the name of the "custom knives for sale" to "handmade knives for sale"?
AG, I don't doubt you've been to the Randall shop, but are you sure each employee makes a knife from start to finish? This is not how it's been mentioned in different mags and books over the years.
Guys, we should be able to discuss this without all the excess BS that wouldn't happen if this was being discussed face to face. Obviously, Les has his reasons for his definition of Randall's, just as AG has his for his Randall's. They each sell alot of knives. BUT, we are the guys spending the money, so just buy what you like. Personally, I own Randall's, handmades, and custom, but regardless, they are all knives that suit my tastes, and that's my bottom line.
Spark can break up the for sale forums any way he chooses, but that doesn't mean he's the only one who can make these definitions.
So, the way I see it:
1-production
2-handmade(regardless of how many hands)
3-custom(made to order)

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...

That last is a great suggestion Dave.

I checked yesterday to see if what I had seen several years ago was still the pattern. I was told that I had seen the shop in mid stream, so to speak. The normal pattern is to select a weeks work on Monday and every body begins grinding blades, as it becomes clear that grinding is under control one of the makers will drop out and begin to put on hilts, another will stop grinding and begin soldering hilts, then one of them will begin building handles, etc. Every maker does every job, as it is important that the absence of one or more makers not brring the job to a halt. This by the way is how it will be described in Pete Hamilton's book when it comes out. When I walked through the Randall shop, I made assumptions that were not totally correct, I wonder if anyone else could have done that.

This has been a great thread with lots of fine suggestions, maybe Spark will study those suggestions and make some changes.

A. G.
 
Dave great idea. I personally would love to have some Randall help in the current "Custom Forum" and we could change the name to handmade forum and be done with this. There is more than enough room in there to open discussion to "non mass produced" cutlery :D.

Hey Spark when things settle down let's consider the above.

Interesting discussion on a subject where there is a lot of shade. Instead of dealing with the subject and all the different agenda's I think a big handmade umbrella would work and we can get on with discussions of what we really enjoy.
 
IMO, the whole discussion of definitions is pretty pointless. There is only one way to judge a knife and that is by quality.

There are only a couple of reasons, again IMO, to use categories such as handmade, custom etc. They are to 1) create some categories so that it is easier to find a knife you're looking for and 2) to sell knives based more on hype than quality.

It's crazy for someone to to take offense when someone else says some xyz knife is production instead of custom, because it doesn't change any of the qualities of the knife, it only changes the perception of the knife. A person's perception of a knife should flow from the quality of the knife itself, rather than what category it's in.

DaveH
 
I do not think that handmade/custom made will be an appropriate division. How much "custom" work will be required to discern a standard Randall (an easy example - not meant to pick) model from a custom model? Will changing the color of micarta move a knife between categories? Using nickel silver trim instead of brass? Knives from a single manufacturer will be placed in either category, and then be subject to debate with regard to their appropriate place.

I will again propose that the divisions be made:
1) Factory produced
2) Small shop produced
3) Single maker produced

These are clean divisions, easily determined (as long as the makers stay honest) and will allow knives from any given source to be found consistently in the same place.
 
As commonly used here Custom, Handmade, Production, bench made, etc. are meaningless terms. Just like Delux, and Heavyduty, are meaningless terms. We can argue about this forever, as we have been, and never get anywhere. This is all marketing speak - it only gives the impression of something with out imparting enough clarity for an actionable guarantee.

Every knife is a production item, as far as I know no one has figured out how to grow them on trees. They are produced by various factories, each using production techniques adequate for their objectives. Some of the factories have been set up to produce some patterns in massive quantities, while others produce more limited runs, or even one-of-a-kind products. Every one of these factories uses a combination of: processed raw materials, subcontractors, modern tooling, and manual hand operations to produce its goods. Currently, the premium product lines invest more labor per unit, and/or more dollars for better equipment, materials, and designs.

These premium lines are the ones we usually think about when we talk about "custom", "hand made", or "bench made"; but, even within this basket of products, production, tooling, and techniques vary greatly. There is no trademark on these words (there is for "Benchmade") and no one is licensing their use.

If you get a "custom knife" and then walk into a friend with an identical "custom" knife do you have a basis for suing the manufacturer? No, of course not, because it is the usual practice within the industry to apply the word liberally, rather than literally. The knife industry does not even have design safeguards. With rare exception knife makers are free to reproduce a competitor's design.

There is not, nor should there be, anything cast in concrete on this subject. The objective of our Exchange Forum is to provide a medium to allow sellers and buyers to communicate. Give them room to do so, and let them use whatever term they feel is most appropriate. This is primarily how dealers like Les are allowed to build their reputation in the first place.

Coming attraction.... who wants to get into a discussion on NIB, Mint, Near-mint, Excellent, Good, and etc. :)

N2S
 
I see the old "custom" argument has come up again. I will not add to it since I think enough has been said. I think we can agree the the word custom when it comes to our beloved hobby is a very abused term. What I think this really does show is that there really is a need for Randall forum.

Regards,

Tom Carey
 
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