PLEASE try this new strop!!!

i was wondering how this method would compare with using the cardboard center of a "roll of paper towels"... i'm not certain if the cardboard is more abrasive than the claycoated paper .... but i guess the diameter of the papertowel roll would need to be much bigger to "accomodate" the angle of curvature on hawkbill knives like the spyderco Tasman Salt/Harpy :confused:
 
i was wondering how this method would compare with using the cardboard center of a "roll of paper towels"... i'm not certain if the cardboard is more abrasive than the claycoated paper .... but i guess the diameter of the papertowel roll would need to be much bigger to "accomodate" the angle of curvature on hawkbill knives like the spyderco Tasman Salt/Harpy :confused:

The diameter works fine by drawing the blade like you would on a round steel. Wrap the paper around the tube for the best of both worlds or make your own tube by rolling up a sheet of heavy clay-coated paper (ex: phone book cover). I prefer some flex in the tube (see original post) so that the strop conforms to the blade as it is stroked.
 
As for your microscopic study, please let us know your findings.

OK, here we go: examination with a microscope at 320x shows that stropping on clay coated paper produces a very nicely polished edge, leaving little doubt that there is a fine abrasive action to this medium.

I'm not sure how to adequately describe the dramatic difference between the edge sharpened on fine ceramic, and how that same edge looks after stropping. At this magnification, the finish left by the ceramic doesn't just look striated, but rough and craggy, with a heavily toothy-looking edge. After stropping on the clay coated paper, the tooth of the edge is much finer -- I would guess average tooth size, both width and depth, now maybe only 1/6th to 1/8th of what it was before stropping -- with a tiny line of brightly polished steel just behind the very edge.

If you have a microscope available, you really should look at this for yourself to see the difference; or maybe somebody here has to ability to take some photomicrographs and post them. Just be sure to rinse the blade off with water after stropping ... a bit of clay coating from the paper gets on the edge, obscuring the edge bevel and polish.

I'm a 100% believer, Zeasor. This is a great sharpening trick!
 
OK, here we go: examination with a microscope at 320x shows that stropping on clay coated paper produces a very nicely polished edge, leaving little doubt that there is a fine abrasive action to this medium.

I'm not sure how to adequately describe the dramatic difference between the edge sharpened on fine ceramic, and how that same edge looks after stropping. At this magnification, the finish left by the ceramic doesn't just look striated, but rough and craggy, with a heavily toothy-looking edge. After stropping on the clay coated paper, the tooth of the edge is much finer -- I would guess average tooth size, both width and depth, now maybe only 1/6th to 1/8th of what it was before stropping -- with a tiny line of brightly polished steel just behind the very edge...

MUCHO THANKS for reporting your findings. Your description seems adequate to me and most encouraging. Now that the proof is in, let's make a buck$$ so we can buy more knives. My offer per post# 21 still stands. Try to keep this secret 'till we corner the market on old phone books.:D
 
...After stropping on the clay coated paper, the tooth of the edge is much finer -- I would guess average tooth size, both width and depth, now maybe only 1/6th to 1/8th of what it was before stropping -- with a tiny line of brightly polished steel just behind the very edge...

Hey Dog, are you up to one more test? Try stroping heel to tip one time on the left side of the blade and one time on the right side. Follow that with a strop from tip to heel on left then right. Repeat numerous times and see if this polishes both edges (front and back) on each side (left and right) of the micro-teeth you see. Do you have enough magnification to observe this?
 
The diameter works fine by drawing the blade like you would on a round steel. Wrap the paper around the tube for the best of both worlds or make your own tube by rolling up a sheet of heavy clay-coated paper (ex: phone book cover). I prefer some flex in the tube (see original post) so that the strop conforms to the blade as it is stroked.

thanks for the reply Zeasor....
so is the assumption correct that the claycoated paper is more abrasive than the silicates? etc found in the p.towel cardboard roll :confused:
 
...so is the assumption correct that the claycoated paper is more abrasive than the silicates? etc found in the p.towel cardboard roll :confused:

Me I don't know too. That question should be forwarded to our research and developement department headed by Dog of War, DS (that's Dr. of Sharpness) :D

My SWAG would be:

Clay coating => dirt => Rub your knife in the dirt.
OR
Paper towel tube => tree => Rub your knife on a tree.

Since the finer stones come from dirt and don't grow on trees, I'm guessing dirt => clay coating. How's that for reasoning. :thumbup:
 
Hey Dog, are you up to one more test? Try stroping heel to tip one time on the left side of the blade and one time on the right side. Follow that with a strop from tip to heel on left then right. Repeat numerous times and see if this polishes both edges (front and back) on each side (left and right) of the micro-teeth you see. Do you have enough magnification to observe this?
Don't think my simple microscope's up to the task, in fact it's a bit tricky just getting the light positioned to reflect off the edge bevel due to the objective lens being so close ... and then field of focus is very, very tight, you need to refocus to really examine different areas up and down the bevel.

FWIW ... what strikes me is the quality of the very thin, very shiny line of polished steel seen right behind the tooth of the edge; much more even and precise than what I've ever seen after stropping with charged leather. My guess is that this probably has to do with the relative stiffness or lack of give to the paper, and the nature of the clay abrasive. It seems to clearly do a much more precise job than a regular strop.
 
BTW, thought I should mention ... the microscope work was done using a Sandvik 12C27 blade. Considering that at 320x magnification, 1 micron in dimension is being enlarged to about 1/8th of an inch (!) I have to say I'm impressed and even surprised how fine the edge is, even knowing that as stainless steels goes, 12C27 has a fairly low carbide content and fine grain.

I'll be interested to see over time how this clay-coat stropping performs on different steels of widely different grain and carbide size. I'm inclined to think it may be best suited to finer grained steels, but that's mostly just a guess.
 
...I'll be interested to see over time how this clay-coat stropping performs on different steels of widely different grain and carbide size. I'm inclined to think it may be best suited to finer grained steels, but that's mostly just a guess.

Thanks for your testing. Please let us know what more you find.
 
Me I don't know too. That question should be forwarded to our research and developement department headed by Dog of War, DS (that's Dr. of Sharpness) :D

My SWAG would be:

Clay coating => dirt => Rub your knife in the dirt.
OR
Paper towel tube => tree => Rub your knife on a tree.

Since the finer stones come from dirt and don't grow on trees, I'm guessing dirt => clay coating. How's that for reasoning. :thumbup:

thanx Zeasor :thumbup:
 
Okay I tried it last night on a Scrapyard 4 and an Ontario Quartermaster knife dulled by a day of sawing Kudzu vines. Used an old Soldier of Fortune magazine. Then switched to an American Handgunner. Tried it both ways, away from the edge and towards the edge. No question it is doing something. Going towards the edge quickly resulted in transfer of the printing ink to the upper edge of the knife and a buildup as the page was cleared of ink, but also gave the most "feel" to the process. Going away from the edge, as if razor stropping was more of a frictionless polishing with only occasional raspyness feedback. Doing the tip of the thumb test afterwards I went from the arm hair shaving sharp where it feels sharp before the magazine cover, to a degree of sharpness where each fingerprint ridge felt a bite while moving sideways.
 
Okay I tried it last night on a Scrapyard 4 and an Ontario Quartermaster knife dulled by a day of sawing Kudzu vines. Used an old Soldier of Fortune magazine. Then switched to an American Handgunner...

Normally I would think a gardening magazine or the Farmers Almanac would be more appropriate for a day of whittling on the landscaping but, when it comes to kudzu, it's war. Soldier of Fortune and American Handgunner sound about right. :D Thanks for the report. We are definitely onto something with this strop. :thumbup:
 
Can anyone post a photo of how they strop using this method? I think I've got it, but it nevers hurt to see first hand. Clint
 
I tried stropping a serrated edge on a clay-coated paper roll. It seems the serration points on the edge are keener. Anyone else try serrated?
 
Zeasor,

All the anecdotal evidence I've seen here is right on.

I was looking at another item yesterday when I came across this post and had to throw my 2 cents in.
The types of paper you are talking about are coated with clay, yes. More importantly is the type of clay, kaolin an alumina silicate. This is the same type used to make vitreous china and ceramic insulators as well as brighten and harden paper. Because of the high temperature is works at it is good for high-end paper because it can be dried during the printing process at temperatures that almost instantly finish drying or have substantial quality benefits.
Clay doesn't make paper white, bleach does that. Coating may make it brighter and certainly makes it harder surfaced and with more properties for high quality print.
Many press parts get worn slick because of contact with the paper constantly passing over bare metal.
A couple of notes about getting good stock to use.
While a lot of gloss stock is coated, some have a top coat over the ink which is an aqueous or Uv coating applied after the ink is printed on the paper suface.
This is not going to help though it looks super glossy. This is just to aid in handling the sheet after printing and for appearance.
Ink itself normally sits on top of coated stock which is one of the benefits of coating, it isn't as absorbent so the ink tends to not bleed into the paper and this gives a sharper looking image. The problem is that inks are generally either oil based or soy based and both will slow down your end use as a strop. It CAN fill up the exposed grain of the edge to some degree if soft.
Using an unprinted area of white paper will yeild better results.
The thin types of stock normally in newspaper inserts are very low end recycled paper not far above toilet tissue. In some cases newsprint itself is inferior to better grade toilet paper. (not good where paper is concerned but keeps bulk paper costs down). Magazines such as the regular news-stand types are also lesser grade. This type of paper comes on large rolls used in newspaper webpresses which need this type of stock to keep moving.
The phone book cover is moving in the right direction but mainly because it has body to it.
One type of piece many people come across that is high kaolin content is insert cards in plastic clamshell packaging. Many pieces we print are this type of paper and are in the heavier weight stocks. Another type of piece this is used in is corporate advertising pieces. Don't throw your junk mail away before finding some coated stock and flipping it to an unprinted side.
I have not tried this since it is my wifes good inkjet printer stock, BUT .....
the super glossy paper you buy to print photos with an inkjet printer is "structured surface" stock which has specially laid clay to trap the ink droplets as they fall from the ink cartridge. If looking at a side cross section they would look like saw teeth instead of a smooth glistening beach as press stock would. This should be more aggressive but I don't know if it would last long.
Another thing to get primo stock is go to the local printer in town and ask for a piece of waste "Make-ready" ; this is stock pressmen save to setup the press on. It will be full size and printed on one side and possibly both. Just tell them what you want it for and if there worth buying printing from they'll give you enough to share. If they're the good sort they'll say "to heck with that, let me give you some new stock" If you ask for waste stock they may give you trim-off which normally won't be big enough to get much use of.
Look for the middle size to small printers that have from 5 to 50 employees and do general commercial printing. (Yellow pages, open that phone book youre honing on and look for ads) the big ones are less likely to have what you want and/or won't give you the time of day.
While this is off the subject a little, another item we have in plenty is thin gauge aluminum plates that come off the offset printing presses. These are high purity aluminum and recyclers will pay top dollar for this as scrap. The backs of these are not usually mirror polished but are bright. The printing side is usually a dull bead blasted look. You may have to clean some thin layer of ink off but possibly not. These are useful for all sorts of projects requiring a soild covering and the material is very adaptable. When my oldest son was in Cub Scouts we used some to make roof coverings for bird house projects.
they are very useful for laying out templates and patterns are can be trimmed with scissors. The material is somewhat soft since is very pure, thin aluminum.
While you might get a piece or 2 for free an offering of a few bucks (if it's worth it to you) should be offered since press plates are expensive and can be recycled. (a 23 by 32 inch plate costs us about 28 dollars before processing)
Lastly, used offset press rubber blankets are great for a number of tasks, inlcuding bench top cleaning mattes. The blanket transfers the reverse inked image from the plate to the paper. After awhile they get a bit hard and lose their ability to transfer or get a "busted" flat spot which won't make contact and transfer image in a certain area. These all go in the garbage. Because good quality blankets have to be washed by some fairly strong petroleum based solvents they are great for all sorts of bench/table top tasks. The back is normally canvas with interleaved layers of compounded rubber. They can be cut down by the knife you've honed on coated paper.
If you find a print shop, ask the guy emptying the garbage can about the above. More than likely he's the guy running the guillotine paper cutter. He can tell you if you can get anything out in the front office. If not he may be able to put in a word for you with the production supervisor (this is who you want to get in good with most likely anyway)
 
i tried this this past weekend and two of my moras will whittle hair now. i've always been able to get them really sharp but never used a stop until now. they were scary sharp after using this method. i used the cover from my wife's "Interior Design" magazine. my wife was amazed at how sharp those knives were. it was really amazing the difference it made after using the sharpmaker.
 
Zeasor.. All the anecdotal evidence I've seen here is right on...

Stormwatch 24 THANK YOU

I have been looking for a paper guru. Where have you been?:D I didn't know why this strop worked until you posted details. It's most helpful to know that the ink and any top coating are on top of the clay. Thanks also for the additional printer's "scrap" info. I am a big believer in recycling/reuse. Your info will have many of us creating new uses for trash. :) Anyone want to make a lite-weight aluminum sheath with some sort of protective liner? The rubber blanket might make an ideal non-skid mat for my stones. I am off to visit my local small printer this morning. I have several things to mooch. :)

Please help with another question. I read that there is also a plastic coated paper. Is this instead of clay or is it the plastic top coating you mentioned? I want to know how to differentiate clay-coated paper from any other shiny paper????? Thanks again for your help. ---Zeasor
 
Zeasor,

I have a few notes for you about your comments and questions.

A sheet of coated paper is a little more than coated. It isn’t like cinderblocks which have stucco applied to the surface. Kaolin is applied in the process of making paper near the finishing so the clay is actually in the paper and not just on top.
A lot of post cards are printed on what is referred to as “C1S” or stock coated one side. This is done on reply mail so that the backside can still be written on with most pens and pencils.

With regard to detecting the difference between plain coated paper and one with a top coat;
NORMALLY, paper which is not coated with a finish will have a faint to strong smell from the ink which usually will be similar to the smell of a fresh newspaper. It stinks because of the oil based ink most printers use. (When we recycle ink the recycler takes the drums to a block plant where the oils are extracted from the pigments and the oil is blended and used to fire the block plants furnace. The pigment is bricked into solids which are sent to ink makers which supply the news trade. Typically one 50 gallon drum will yield one brick of pigment the size of a large fire brick. All the colors we use can’t be extracted of course so it is basically black. Like most recycling, the pigment goes to a cheaper product.)

Printing varnish and Aqueous based coatings are similar to one another and provides the characteristics of being able to both add gloss, semi-gloss or dull finish for effect and having a piece which can be processed almost immediately because the inked surface is buffered against contact with a second press run (as in turning the sheet over and printing on the back) or sending to be folded or cut.
A quick hint on a sheet coated would be where the piece is spot coated or reverse spot coated. An example of this would be a magazine insert were the product is glossy and the surrounding area is dull or a different appearance.
Sometimes it can be difficult in our shop to tell by appearance if a sheet is coated if the edges have already been trimmed. (aside from asking the pressroom or looking on the job record) Not a certain test is trying to write on it with most gel ink pens. Most of them won’t dry on aqueous coating for several minutes if ever.
Aqueous coatings are water based (and usually ammonia solventized). When dry it usually has a slightly acrid smell.
Varnish is the older method still used by some printers. It is similar in base to the inks themselves, just no pigment. Varnish will be like any petrol based finish in smell.

Uv or ultraviolet coatings are the very slick coatings and a good coating will cause water to stand on the surface. Most cured Uv’s will have an almost sweet smell.
Another test is the fingernail or knife edge test. When scraped many Uv’s will loosen and lift in flakes from the surface.

With regard to plastic, look at your good grade of playing cards. These are almost always top laminated with a layer of plastic. This is a very thin sheet of film laminated on top so this is not technically a printing item and rather a finishing process since it is not applied as a printing method. There are more and more uses of these films on pieces which are designed to be handled a lot. Gift cards, prepaid calling cards, customer loyalty cards and key tags, insert cards like membership cards and credit cards which are glued onto offers for service are often coated with plastic. These can generally be distinguished from plastic solids such as real credit cards and the like.
Now a sidebar if I may.
There is a plastic sheet increasing in popularity which is a polymer (polypropylene).
We do print on this some for limited uses. Our first customer using this was a window manufacturer which needed insert sheets to go with window sets which would withstand outdoor conditions including inclement weather, freezing temperatures, extended exposure to sunlight. Instructions to the installer was printed on these inserts.
We chose this as a natural stock to use for our local BSA Council’s reservation maps.
At over 16, 000 acres and 100 miles of trails the reservation’s map has to be updated on a regular basis to be accurate for year-round use which means holding up in all sorts or weather and punishing conditions without the ink running or fading. (parts of the reservation are used year round)
This stock does this with only one failing, after repeated tight folding it begins to tear.
Many Scouts and leaders precut the map and tape them back together for sectioned folding (slightly larger than a USGS quad, it covers parts of 3 counties).
I mention this (one to put a plug in for BSA and the Reservation) because many in the forum, I know, have cross interests which may make this type of paper useful aside from honing. The paper is useful for other uses which include art and inkjet printing.
I have gotten some in packs under the National Geographic label for printing out maps on. Look up Yupo in your search engine for more information.
If you’re a Scout, Scout leader, parent of a Scout or have fond memories of being a Scout lookup the camps under, http://www.bsa-brmc.org/camp.htm
Of particular interest to this forums members are the Mountain Man Outpost and Voyageur Trek which go to skills of the 18th century explorers and long-hunters.
The Council also has a 4500 acre aquatics base on the other side of the New River just down the road also detailed on the site.
The Council operates what Boys Life magazine staff calls “ The Philmont of the East”.

OK, I know that wasn’t knife related exactly but I had to offer it up.

About offset printing plates; some are thicker than others. That being said, none are very thick and have uses which aren’t much towards structure or strength. If cut they will have a sharp microscopic ragged edge. They have a multitude of uses though. If folded they tend to break if scored tightly. Think of them as super heavy-duty tin foil. (I wouldn’t cook on one though, the chemicals used to treat them for ink carrying is not nice for human consumption.)

On press blankets
I have used blankets to make:
Gaskets
Cleaning mattes
Shooting mattes
Cutting mattes
Axe and cutting head covers
Non-scratch watch repair mattes (excels for laying a watch face down while changing the battery and not damaging the crystal)
Non-slip pads of many types
Turn them over, canvas side up, to make a bottom cover for sharpening stones and diamond coated steels.
The canvas back can be suitable for making a heavy sharpening strop using paste.
(depends on the quality of the blanket)
100’s of other uses (like putting it under a gas can for transport and filling the push mower to catch spills.)
Small press blankets will be about 11” by 15” on up to 60” by 70” on a very large sheet fed press. (most of those are used for printing food can labels and the like)
The most common will be the small ones and medium format presses. These will vary by press but somewhere between 20 by 26 to 30 by 40 for larger presses.
*As I said before, an offering won’t hurt and I suggest asking up front, “ what would you charge me for a busted press blanket? ” Sometimes my answer is a blank stare followed by, “hang out a second let me see what’s in the back” while I look for a decent piece, gratis. Sometimes there isn’t any at the moment and I’ll just take a number or say come back in a day or three. (My policy and experience says “pay it forward”. If they don’t pay it forward it’s their loss. *”Your mileage may vary”, as the old disclaimer goes.)

Finally one last note for full disclosure. Kaolin clays, which much of this subject centers around, may contain trace amounts of radioactive thorium or uranium. While the amounts are small, truckloads of skidded stock can set off radiation sensors at weigh-stations and inspection points. This is probably not significant since the same materials are used for structured sharpening rods.

Happy experimenting and safe sharpening to all.
 
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