??poor mans quench??

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Vinny203

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My older brother and i did some forging today. Tought him a lil bit lil bit.
ive been wondering a cheap easy to get quench.. basicaly nothing i gotta order.
just for now.... and i have done the process once but anyone got any tips also on the whole process. :confused: :confused:

thanks
 
cooking oil, motor oil (new or used), ATF transmission fluid. check out $50 knife shop by wayne goddard for his version of a cheap quench. his is called a goop quench.
 
yeah i got that book his is a mix of oils and like crisco like animal fat.
thanks allot jay. got any tips on heating it before quench. any
methods i could try. any secrets lol
 
get a thick piece of metal like a leaf spring and heat it up hot and dunk it in the oil. also make sure you have a thermometer handy to make sure you keep it at the right temp. you can also use a propane camp stove or an electric cook top. wayne also uses parafin wax in his quench to make it easy for travel.
 
I used an ammo can for my quench tank, then used a couple big bolts from home depot and dropped them in.
 
Why go to all the trouble of forging or grinding out a blade and then quenching in a vat of crap?!

I would suggest that you do yourself a favor and buy some new steel of known composition. For example, you can buy 3/16" X 1-1/4" X 60" 1075/1080 from Admiral Steel for $12.80. How can you go wrong for only $2.56 per foot? 1075/1080 would be a good steel to start with (or 1084 if you can get it) and, since it's a known material, you can just look up the proper heat treating formula. (If you need more info, I can post the appropriate pages from the Heat Treater's Guide.) Admiral is just one of the many places that you can purchase steel cheaply and, with those low prices, it doesn't make sense to use "mystery steel", even if it's free.

While you are getting your real steel, I suggest that you order some real heat treating oil too. Metallugists and scientists have developed real heat treating oils for a reason. If any old goop or other crap worked well, they would not have bothered. As has been pointed out on these pages numerous time, real heat treating oil usually costs about the same, or even less, than olive oil, canola oil, etc, etc. Heatbath's #50 quenching oil would be a good choice for 1075/1080, and it's now available from Ellis Custom Knifeworks (under Quenchants) for $18 per gallon. There are other good real heat treating oils available, but the Heatbath oils are what I have been using and I'm quite satisfied with them.

Anyway, that's my rant on the subject. Feel free to ignore all of it and use mystery steel and mystery oil. However, my knifemaking time is too valuable for me to waste time with inferior materials, and I suspect that yours is too.

PS: Do some searches in the archives and you will finds some good info on heat treating. I suggest paying special attention to posts by Kevin Cashen and Mete (Robert Cella). Here's one for starters; screwy idea for tempering
 
Thanks Chris. I was going to post that same advise, but didn't want to start harping on an old subject.

Why try to save a few bucks (if any) and make a knife of unknown ability.
The materials you listed would make at least eight knives for $30. And you would still have the quench oil. You may not need a KMG to make a knife....but you do need the right steel and the right quenchant.
Stacy
 
I haven't quenched anything yet, just tempered back files to make them grindable and not likely to chip. So I'm beginning to understand that part (yeah I know, I'm doing this kind of backwards.)

However, I finally have some good "raw" steel on the way (1084 from Mr. Bruno) so it's time to get real. I chose this largely for it's relative ease/margin of error to HT. I'd like to edge-quench it for the usual reasons, but maybe I should do full-quench to start with to avoid Mr. Murphy...

My real question is about fumes/stench/safety. I really hate the smell of hot petroleum products, seriously it makes me want to upchuck. Even room temp used motor oil turns my stomach, I'm sure it doesn't smell any better when heated up. I know that's not a scientific reason not to use it but it's a factor to me. Does proper quenching oil stink as bad? Do you guys wear a respirator when quenching? Those fumes have to be bad for you.

Is there any safety/health advantage to using a "natural" oil like peanut or canola over the proper quenchants? I have read it doesn't smell as bad. I have no idea what the flashpoints are for those.

PS, I think you started out with canola oil, how's it working for you?

I'm not interested in making any goop a la Goddard, I want to keep this as simple as possible. With something of known properties.

Thanks for wading through another of my oddball questions! I already know the correct answer from this and previous threads, but I would like to not make myself barf and stink up the neighborhood. I live in a close residential area with a lot of foot-traffic.

-James
 
Here is a link to an article that Kevin Cashen wrote on Heat Treating 1084. If you can get some 1084, I think it would behoove you to follow Kevin's advice very closely.

GibsonFan,
As far as fumes from Park Metallurgical/Heat Bath's quenching oils, it's never been a problem. I do a complete quench into a vertical tank (then agitate spine-to-edge). Occasionally, the oil catches fire briefly, but as soon as I submerse the blade the flames are gone. I have never noticed any particularly strong odors from the oil, but I can't say with certainty that it wouldn't bother you.

Personally, I don't know why you would want to edge quench your blades. Tempered martensite is stronger than pearlite, so I don't see the advantage. If you are doing it for the temper lines (which I think are very cool), I would clay coat the back of the blade and then quench in my normal fashion (tip down, complete submersion, with agitation.)
 
Around 10 years ago when shopping for living room furniture, I visited a very small town place where the sales person impressed me as actually being honest. She told me something that her father who started the business had taught her long ago, she said "The poor man is the guy that can least afford the cheap stuff!” I didn't under stand at first until we discussed what her father had learned over the years. Rich people can afford to swap out their furniture every two or three years when they feel like a change so they can go with any old cheap set they want. The true poor man can only afford all new furniture a few times in his life, so the stuff had better last! It makes infinitely more sense for the poor man to save up his money and buy the highest quality he can and then enjoy it for many, many years, the rich man can afford disposable furniture.

It all made so much sense that I forced my furniture budget to double what it was, and have had my children abusing those couches and chairs for ten years now; I simply could not have afforded the cheaper stuff.

If there is one moment that is THE most important in producing a fine knife, it is the moment that that hot blade goes under the surface of the quench. You can go with a mystery liquid that could have you redoing who knows how many more times, make you think you made it but in reality not quite, or a proven winner that will give you a reliable quench every time over a good portion of your career. Which quench can you afford?

A final note- a person can only bite their tongue for so long before they feel guilty for allowing something to go unsaid. I feel the whole "goop" thing has been a serious disservice to new makers. Convection, conduction, thermal extraction due to low viscosity and many other critical factors in a proper quench are totally absent in a semi solid goo. This is another one of those that is said to work so well because for too long an easily bent knife has been more important than a fully hard one. One can say that it is a good alternative for a guy just starting out but I look at the beginning of a journey as the most critical time to get the main points right. To me it is the equivalent of being in southern Indiana when a person who has never been away from home asks you how they can get to Los Angeles, and you point them straight east and smile as they walk away. This early in their journey not having the best directions will have them never finding the state of California, much less Los Angeles. Alternate routes or shortcuts will be fine when they have put many roads behind them and can easily read a map themselves, when on the outskirts of L.A. a misdirection will still get them a particular address within the day.

But while still standing on their door step in southern Indiana which directions can they most afford, a free finger point to the east, or a few bucks for a good atlas, and sound lessons on how to read it?
 
Don't forget about ~$14/gal proper quenching oil from McMaster. Page
2094, SKU 3202K5, on www.mcmaster.com . Chances are you got one of their distribution warehouses close to you, so the shipping will be something like $4. So for $20 you get the right oil. Doesn't flash up, doesn't smell, lasts forever (mine is in 3rd year). Get the "slow" , 28-sec type.
 
Chris, I want a hard edge and tough spine. But the more I read, the more I think I better learn to do a very basic full quench before getting into more advanced stuff.

Thanks for your info on the stank/flame up.

I have that (and others) Cashen article bookmarked... it is slowly sinking in the more I re-read it.

Speaking of Mr. Cashen ;) thanks for chiming in. I do understand your point about starting right, that's why I ask so many questions. And why I want to stick with one steel, one quenchant. The more variables involved, the less likely I'm going to be able to keep track of them.

rashid11, why do I want the slower version of that oil? I thought 1084 should be quenched relatively quickly, maybe I missed something...
 
GibsonFan,

What I do is harden the entire blade, temper two or three times in my home oven, then "soften" just the spine, shoulders, and tang with a torch. I blue those parts twice, keeping the edge in a pan of water (as a heat sink) and being very careful (trying anyway) not to let the tempering colors run too far. By using the oven first, I don't have to worry about trying to temper the edge properly with a torch alone, as that can be quite nerve racking. Softening the spine and tang does make the blade a little weaker, but it does make it much easier to square the shoulder, shape the tang, and filework the spine.

You are correct in understanding that 1084 needs a fast quench. I am not familiar with the McMaster-Carr oils, so I don't know which is the proper one to use.

I'll post pages 77 and 78 of my edition of the Heat Treater's Guide below. Interestingly, my book has a TTT Diagram for 1080, but not 1084. I'm assuming that is because the two steels are so similar that it would be redundant to post both (Kevin or Mete, please correct me if I'm wrong). If you look at the TTT Diagram for 1080, you'll see that you have less than one second to drop the temperature of your blade from 1500 degrees F to approximately 875 degrees F to avoid the pearlite nose of the graph. You need to move quickly and use a fast oil like Heatbath's #50 to accomplish that task.

1080-HTG-p-77.jpg


1080-HTG-p-77-cropped.jpg


1084-HTG-p-78-001.jpg


1084-HTG-p-78-cropped.jpg


​
 
Chris Meyer said:
Why go to all the trouble of forging or grinding out a blade and then quenching in a vat of crap?!

I would suggest that you do yourself a favor and buy some new steel of known composition. For example, you can buy 3/16" X 1-1/4" X 60" 1075/1080 from Admiral Steel for $12.80. "

im brand new to knife makeing so this may or may not be a stupid question but when you buy steel like that witch im looking to buy tthe 1080 2x1/8x72 does anything else need to be done to the steel other than heat treat and tempering?
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mrstenoien said:
just curious...why not do that before you quench?
Click to expand...

No really good reason, just that it's the way I was taught to do it. Someone has already suggested squaring the shoulders and fitting the guard before heat treating. I intend to try it, but haven't done so yet. Is that what you do, and have you had good success with it?

im brand new to knife makeing so this may or may not be a stupid question but when you buy steel like that witch im looking to buy tthe 1080 2x1/8x72 does anything else need to be done to the steel other than heat treat and tempering?
Click to expand...

If you are just grinding and not forging you should be able to go straight to the heat treating. If you are forging, I recommend following the procedure laid out by Kevin Cashen in his famous article entitled Heat Treating 1084.

By the way, 2"x1/8"x72" seems awfully thin for grinding out a blade. I would screw that up in a heartbeat. I use 3/16" or 1/4", otherwise I'd grind the blade away to nothing. If you are forging, I would think that you wanted a thicker and narrower piece of steel, as you generally widen the blade out as you forge in the bevels. I usually forge 1" (or 1.25") x 1/4" steel. I've also got some W1 round bar that I wanted to try, but I haven't got to it yet.
 
I am working on my first blade by stock removal and I am using 1/8", with stock removal I want my metal to be the final thickness so I don't have to do any extra and unnecessary grinding.


Also, about quenching oil: Sure if you are going to go out and buy brand new cooking or motor oil it makes sense to buy proper quenching oil if it's the same price, BUT why even pay for quenching oil when you can get it for free when you change your car's motor oil?! or you can go to your local quicky oil change place and ask for a gallon of there used oil, or your local resturant. They all have to pay to have it taken away and disposed of properly so they should have no problem with giving you as much as you want, just bring an empty milk gallon jug.
 
James, two things will help a lot with your aversion to the fumes. Get a good face mask with organic vapor cartridges ($15-30), and a pedestal fan ($20). Put the fan behind you to blow the fumes away, and wear the mask.

Kevin and I both believe in the same thing _ everything you do in making a knife -blade design, balance, steel type, handle selection, forging/grinding, finishing, polishing...everything..... ascends and descends to/from the quench. Nothing will make a good knife without a good quench - nothing. It is the one thing you can't skimp on.The PROPER quenchant and the PROPER HT procedure are a must to learn kinfemaking right. I'm not saying that you can't get luckly or stumble your way through it with mystery steel and mysterious quenchants.....but I would rather have a floodlight than a candle. There are many great fellows that I admire (Wayne Goddard, Ed Fowler, Mark Williams, etc.) that do things I don't personally think are the optimal way, but they have learned the basics a long time ago (often the hard way by trial and error). The newbie is doing him/herself a disservice by taking that approach. The information is available to those who want to learn it. Understanding the science of metallurgy and knifemaking is not theoretical science....it is an applied science with real results.

My advise to every new maker (and a lot of the old ones) is to get a firm understanding of EXACTLY what happens when hot steel cools rapidly. Therein lies the most important five seconds of a knifes life.
Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
Get a firm understanding of EXACTLY what happens when hot steel cools rapidly. Therein lies the most important five seconds of a knifes life.
Stacy
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This is the "MOST" important quote that I have ever read about creating a cutting tool. Very well said Stacy!

I believe that if you do not find this quote profound and extremely valuable, then you might be spending a lot of your knifemaking time wandering in the dark, lost, frustrated, or even unaware that you are lost and in the dark.

Scott (Ickie) Ickes
 
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