??poor mans quench??

stingray4540 said:
Ok, so this thread got me looking into quenching oils, since it's "so cheap". I found some at Ellis custom knife works. As mentioned it is only $18 for a gallon, not too bad, but hard for me to justify spending to the wife, then I saw how much it was for shipping, another $18!, so now that $18 gallon of oil turned into $36, no way I can justify that expenditure to the wife. If this knife making adventure turns out well and I enjoy doing it and get to the point of possibly selling some of my knives, then maybe I'll look into quenching oil, unless there's a store that sells it locally so I don't have to pay that much for shipping.
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Not to complicate things, but I dont think 1 gallon would be efficient enough.........I have a 2 and 3 gallon quench tanks for small to large camp size blades......
 
stingray4540 said:
SHIPPING IS PART OF THE PRICE OF THE PRODUCT! DON'T TELL ME HOW MUCH SOMETHING IS ON A WEBSITE UNLESS THAT PRICE INCLUDES SHIPPING. Unless of course it's a $150+ item and shipping is only $2.

I MUST be looking in the wrong place, so please Kevin tell me were I can get quenching oil for $7 - $15 a gallon and includes the price of shipping unless shipping is no more than $5.
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If your only concern is using a commodity as cheaply as humanly possible, then this thread and the bulk of it's posts do not apply to you. What is trying to be pointed out is that with a very small difference in cost you will get MUCH better results. If that isn't important, then I guess it isn't important, right? Not trying to get your hackles up, man... just trying to keep others from falling into the trap of 'good enough' instead of 'as good as I can'!



Quote Kevin Davey:"However, we need to remember that owning and using the best possible quench oil on the market is not alone the key to success.

You may have the right oil but if your steel temperatures are off then you may as well quench in urine........Quench oil is just a part of the jigsaw."


Amen, bro. But it's all about the reduction of variables, right?
 
I wish you guys would stop beating up on green leisure suits. I started my first day of (Catholic) high school in 1977 wearing a brand new green leisure suit, with a tie no less. :eek:
 
Not to stir the pot, too much.........

But, I've been using ATF since I started, and see no reason to change....unless I also get some real accurate thermometers, thermocoupling auto sensing device, maybe a heat treat oven.........A Rockwell tester.......

and win the lottery to pay for it all:)
 
Chris Meyer said:
I wish you guys would stop beating up on green leisure suits. I started my first day of (Catholic) high school in 1977 wearing a brand new green leisure suit, with a tie no less. :eek:
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I knew that before you posted it, Chris... you wear the fact like an iron mask!;) :D
 
Hey, it was cool at the time! I dressed just like Steve Austin (Lee Majors as the Six Million Dollar Man, for those too young to remember). :cool:
 
Chris, please tell me it wasn't lime green..... :eek: Gotta love that 70's polyester chic. :)
 
MrPurple said:
If your only concern is using a commodity as cheaply as humanly possible, then this thread and the bulk of it's posts do not apply to you. What is trying to be pointed out is that with a very small difference in cost you will get MUCH better results.
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The original question was: "a cheap easy to get quench.. basicaly nothing i gotta order."
Not: "What is the best quenching oil and were can I get it?"

How does this thread not apply to me? If anything this thread applies more to me than it does you, because I am actually trying to answer his original question. The answer you are giving him is the complete opposite of what he was originally asking.

Secondly, I don't know what you consider to be a big difference in price, but to me $45 is a big difference when you are talking about only 2 gallons of oil.($15 for 2.25 gallons of canola or vegatable oil, out the door; $60 for 2 gallons of quenching oil, out the door, using Mcmaster's unit price and ellis' shipping price because I have no idea what Mcmaster's shipping is.)
 
stingray4540 said:
...Also, is their 11-second quenching oil what I would want to use for 1080?
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No, 11 second oil is what Fitzo would want to use for 1080, you want to use old 10w40, it is the best for your way of doing things and any answer Fitzo will give will not be good enough. Stingray4540 you are one of the folks whom I am perfectly happy to encourage continuing whatever it is they are doing and be happy. I, and a few others saw the opportunity to give Vinny203 some sound advice that would save him a few years of the grief we had to suffer through. New guys get fed all kinds of well meaning advice in this business, they deserve to hear all sides and make up their own minds, but more importantly they deserve to have some sound data and verifiable information with which to make their decisions.

The guy making his first knife and wanting to do his best will always have my willingness to help in any way, but I am tiring of being the worst businessman in the world by actually battling with potential competition on how they can maximize their process. When other makers are content with blades laden with fine pearlite I need to learn to rejoice in the fact that there will be more knives out there to lend contrast to those of us who go for maximum results.

Vinny203 started this thread and had some other questions as well, if he wishes me to expound on any of my posts I will be more than happy to help him out. You however already have all the answers you need and your mind is clearly made up, go with that and be happy, and I will do the same.:)
 
Bob Loveless years ago stated that the knife world would be a success when there was a custom maker at every country cross roads. We need to encourage the beginner to get started, make that first knife. Then if he is willing supply him with the information to make a better knife. this information needs to be in simple words he can understand. This is easy when we understand our craft. Later if he wants to explore the technical side the knowledge is available.

We are all free men, we come to the world of knives by choice. If we welcome the new maker with open arms, coach as they are ready they will make better knives if they chose to do so. Every maker who enteres brings others with him. This will insure our continued growth. It doesn't take much to make a better knife than is readilly available on the market.
 
OK guys another newb question. Looking at the isothermal transformation diagrams for 1080 , 1084 and 1095 it looks like we have less then one second to get the temp below 900 degrees to miss the nose. If that's the case then will even the fastest oil get the job done from edge to spine? I used brine heated to 130 on my only blade so far because it was listed as the fastest quench and got lucky with no pings.
 
bikermikearchery said:
Use W-1, heat treat in water.
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Phillip Patton said:
That's a good way to make a newbie really discouraged. ;)
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I have a sneaking suspicion that bikermikearchery's comment was tongue-in-cheek ;) From your smilie, I think you knew that, too, Mr. Patton :) Regardless, it was funny. After all, water is the cheapest quenchant, yes?!?

Ed Fowler said:
We are all free men, we come to the world of knives by choice. If we welcome the new maker with open arms, coach as they are ready they will make better knives if they chose to do so.
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As a beginner, I'd like to say that I've seen this philosophy at work in this thread and the knifemaker's forum as a whole.

I can't recall ever asking a question and being told, "It's a trade secret, figure it out on your own, you dumb newbie." I thank you all for your guidance and support. As Mr. Cashen mentioned, by sharing your secrets y'all are making your competitors better. I think it's a testament to your faith in yourselves, and the custom knife market as a whole, to openly share these "secrets". Thanks again, gentlemen!
 
Martin S. said:
Looking at the isothermal transformation diagrams for 1080 , 1084 and 1095 it looks like we have less then one second to get the temp below 900 degrees to miss the nose. If that's the case then will even the fastest oil get the job done from edge to spine?
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Well for the most part no, but that really depends on the thickness of the blade. Thin blades obviously would have a better chance of fully hardening than a thick blade. On a thick blade you can almost count on a hardening line (essentially a hamon without using clay) somewhere on the blade tracking the thickness at which the steel won't harden. One thing to bear in mind is that the information on an ITT diagram is not necessarily directly applicable in a continuous cooling operation (a quench). On the few CCT diagrams I've seen the pearlite nose is invariably pushed down and to the right, however going with the "less than a second" to get past the pearlite nose is a good standard on the steels that are fairly lean in the alloying elements!
 
stingray4540 said:
The original question was: "a cheap easy to get quench.. basicaly nothing i gotta order."
Not: "What is the best quenching oil and were can I get it?"

How does this thread not apply to me? If anything this thread applies more to me than it does you, because I am actually trying to answer his original question. The answer you are giving him is the complete opposite of what he was originally asking.

Secondly, I don't know what you consider to be a big difference in price, but to me $45 is a big difference when you are talking about only 2 gallons of oil.($15 for 2.25 gallons of canola or vegatable oil, out the door; $60 for 2 gallons of quenching oil, out the door, using Mcmaster's unit price and ellis' shipping price because I have no idea what Mcmaster's shipping is.)
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No, I caught the question... and, in point of fact, answered it BETTER than you have.
You answered him by saying it's okay to use whatever you want.
I told him that he can improve the performance of his very first knife right on through to his very last by making a small investment in the right stuff. If someone had told me two years ago that I could improve my blades by an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE by spending $50 (or $100, or maybe even more) I'd have jumped at the chance -- but not before doing my research, first. I've done my research, and come to my conclusions.
If you want a real-world example, I'll give you one: this weekend a friend and I cut two pieces of 2"x2"x.25" 1095, heated both at the same time, and quenched each piece in pre-heated (150 degree) Brownell's Tough Quench and Park's #50. Both are quality quenchants. One is optimized to beat the nose for 1095. After the quench, both were allowed to fully cool to ambient temperature. After sitting out for two hours, I could scratch my name into the Brownell's quenched piece with the Parks' #50 piece, but NOT the other way around. Not exactly scientific, but a decent example, no?

Again, I'm not trying to make this a pissing match. You're entitled to your opinion, as Mr. Fowler points out in the post above. So am I, according to same. I've offered reasons for my statements. If you're unwilling to accept them, I guess we part ways -- my wish is to do so in peace.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
No, 11 second oil is what Fitzo would want to use for 1080, you want to use old 10w40, it is the best for your way of doing things and any answer Fitzo will give will not be good enough. Stingray4540 you are one of the folks whom I am perfectly happy to encourage continuing whatever it is they are doing and be happy. I, and a few others saw the opportunity to give Vinny203 some sound advice that would save him a few years of the grief we had to suffer through. New guys get fed all kinds of well meaning advice in this business, they deserve to hear all sides and make up their own minds, but more importantly they deserve to have some sound data and verifiable information with which to make their decisions.

The guy making his first knife and wanting to do his best will always have my willingness to help in any way, but I am tiring of being the worst businessman in the world by actually battling with potential competition on how they can maximize their process. When other makers are content with blades laden with fine pearlite I need to learn to rejoice in the fact that there will be more knives out there to lend contrast to those of us who go for maximum results.

Vinny203 started this thread and had some other questions as well, if he wishes me to expound on any of my posts I will be more than happy to help him out. You however already have all the answers you need and your mind is clearly made up, go with that and be happy, and I will do the same.:)
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OMFG! Did you read any of my posts or just the parts that didn't sing the praises of what you said? Did I ever say that I wanted to use old 10w40 over 11-second quenching oil? Doesn't the fact that I even asked that question indicate that I am interested? Did I not say that I am a newb myself and am still learning? Did I ever indicate that I wouldn't except any answer Fitzo gives? How can you encorage me to keep doing what I'm doing when I haven't even done it yet? Did I not say in one of my posts that I'm still working on my first blade? I haven't even gotten to this point yet. Did I ever say that your advice was not sound? You say that new guys deserve to hear all sides and deside for themselves, yet you are getting on my case for giving him one of those sides. And lastly, did I ever say that I was not wanting to do my best?

If you aren't interested in helping me, that's just fine, I don't expect you to help me, I don't expect anyone to help me, but I do appreciate it when someone does, and so far I've gotten a whole lot of help, especially from people on this forum and I really appreciate it. I do not however appreciate someone critisizing me and trying to make me out to be an idiot or someone who isn't willing to learn or take advice when all I did was try to pass along some of the information that I have come across, from one newb to another. I never said that it was the best information or the greatest advice, just another "side", as you put it.

:rolleyes: Oh well.
 
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