??poor mans quench??

I am working on my first blade by stock removal and I am using 1/8", with stock removal I want my metal to be the final thickness so I don't have to do any extra and unnecessary grinding.


Also, about quenching oil: Sure if you are going to go out and buy brand new cooking or motor oil it makes sense to buy proper quenching oil if it's the same price, BUT why even pay for quenching oil when you can get it for free when you change your car's motor oil?! or you can go to your local quicky oil change place and ask for a gallon of there used oil, or your local resturant. They all have to pay to have it taken away and disposed of properly so they should have no problem with giving you as much as you want, just bring an empty milk gallon jug.

All oils are not created equally. Cooking oil and motor oil were designed to cook food and lubricate cars. They are not designed to harden steel properly.

However, if you want to fry chicken in your used cooking oil, you might get some good results by quenching hot steel in it until it reaches the appropriate 350 degrees F., then drop your chicken into the oil. Yum!

All joking aside, just because it's free, does not mean that it is as good as.

Scott (Ickie) Ickes
 
All oils are not created equally. Cooking oil and motor oil were designed to cook food and lubricate cars. They are not designed to harden steel properly.

However, if you want to fry chicken in your used cooking oil, you might get some good results by quenching hot steel in it until it reaches the appropriate 350 degrees F., then drop your chicken into the oil. Yum!

All joking aside, just because it's free, does not mean that it is as good as.

Scott (Ickie) Ickes
My point was not that used cooking or motor oil was better than special made quenching oil, only that it is FREE! For someone that is just starting out and trying to save as much money as possible wherever he can, used motor oil is one chioce that he has. Sure maybe used motor oil won't get the metal of your knife to it's opimum level on a molecular level, but it will make it into a servicable knife that will do anything that you ask it to. I just don't think it's going to make such a big difference that you are going to notice on an amature homemade knife. Now if you are looking at spending $1000+ on a custom then it is probably something that matters a little more.

ETA: I'm not an experienced maker or a metalurgist, so take my thoughts for what they are worth.
 
...Sure maybe used motor oil won't get the metal of your knife to it's opimum level on a molecular level...

Obviously you can use whatever you choose as a quenchant, but the point we're trying to make is that it's a disservice to the novice to suggest that they use substandard materials. There are so many things that can go wrong in the course of making a knife that it seems silly to even bother trying if you know from the get go that your blade won't reach "it's optimum level".

Also, in actuality, I suspect that the amatuer's knife will get used a heck of a lot more than the $1,000 custom. I know I couldn't afford to use such an expensive blade.

Anyhow, it's late, I'm tired, and this thread is getting wearisome for me. Everyone should use whatever the heck they want when quenching their knives. We're just asking that if a new person asks for advice, you tell them the best way to accomplish the task, then they can make an informed decision on how to procede. Now, rather than continue to beat a dead horse, I'll bow out.
beat-dead-horse.gif

PS: Kevin, I don't know how you keep this up year after year. You must be a metallurgical saint.
 
My point was not that used cooking or motor oil was better than special made quenching oil, only that it is FREE!

So following this logic, if I GAVE you a FREE lime green leisure suit, would you wear it?:D

There's no doubt you can quench steel into just about anything and achieve results. The differences are subtle enough on the surface to be overlooked, but monumental when the rubber meets the road. A fully hardened martensitic blade, properly tempered, is much stronger than a partially martensitic blade, because you've still got little bits and pieces of softer steel floating around causing weak spots! When you quench with a known oil of appropriate value, the steel reacts predictably!
I got into knifemaking not only to fulfill a desire to create, but also because I wish to make the best knife I can. If $20 is what is standing between myself and one more step of mediocrity, here's twenty bucks!

This discussion keeps coming up, and I want to stress something here (in less polite terms) than Mr. Cashen pointed out above:

If the expense of using known steel and known materials is daunting enough for a budding knifemaker to NOT make knives, they weren't interested in the first place. If my lousy two cents is enough to dissuade a hobbyist from doing it right, they aren't reading these posts in the right light. I spent two years wading through the hype, mystery, voodoo and hysteria of this realm before I stumbled (literally) into the facts. If I had been presented with the information in this thread early on, I might have questioned the 'old methods', and I might have saved my self a lot of pain and expense!
If I add up the money I've pissed away on this 'hobby', I'd likely cry... the point is I did it because I had to! There is no discouraging me, no matter how bad my skills are!:D
 
My 3 cents worth......

First of all I am a believer in usng correct quenching oils as I have seen the benefits first hand......

However, we need to remember that owning and using the best possible quench oil on the market is not alone the key to success.

You may have the right oil but if your steel temperatures are off then you may as well quench in urine........Quench oil is just a part of the jigsaw.
 
No really good reason, just that it's the way I was taught to do it. Someone has already suggested squaring the shoulders and fitting the guard before heat treating. I intend to try it, but haven't done so yet. Is that what you do, and have you had good success with it?

Chris, if you haven't tried it yet consider this one good reason before you do. If you cut very sharp 90 degree shoulders into the steel before hardening it will cause a point of serious stress wich will lead to lesser strength in that area at best, and the tang just seperating from the blade at the worst.

if you do this use a very small diameter chainsaw file to leave a radius at those shoulders, and then still temper ASAP.
 
If it simply boils down to a matter of cost (which it doesn't since there is a range of HT oils out there and my research has shown many to be cheaper that 5 gallons of new ATF or motor oil), then why not apply the logic to any part of the equation, why be so selective with the logic? Why not use water, it is free? Is it simply because the warping and cracking is plain to see, too slow a quench is equally problematic we just can't readily see the issues. Why not use free mystery steel? Why not eliminate the heat treat altogether, grinding the blades out of files while continually dipping? Handle material is expensive, why not chunks of 2x4 for handles?

Think about it, the same guy who may wish to use free quenchant or free scrap steel, would have a real problem with handling out the knife with pressure treated pine even though it were free. He would probably attempt a finish that would eliminate forging scale and many of the scratches, why? Probably out of pride, part of him wants to make a good knife he can present to others. Yet the MOST important part of it being a real knife is subject to the corner cutting and compromises, because the public cannot readily see it. I guess it is matter of personal taste, but I would rather put Woolmanized pine on my handle than have a blade not cut as well is it could.

One does not have to spend a fortune to get started in making knives, other than some supply orders on my credit card in all of my years making knives I have NEVER went into debt to do this, even with all my fancy gadgets that most would never need to do it. But after all these years I am better situated to rough it and get away with improvised tools and materials, because I have the experience to understand the pitfalls, work around them and make it work. The guy starting our really owes it to himself not to handcuff himself with unnecessary obstacles, it will really mess with the learning curve and will almost invariably lead to the spend an extra dollar just to save a dime scenario. Why not hit the market with a $500 knife that can cut like a $1000 dollar knife made by the established guys? Seems that would be a much better marketing strategy than having to spend years proving that those "good enough" knives were just to get you started. Why not be the new guy who's knives perform like a pro's?

I am more than happy to allow those who have been enjoying the results of various glops and sludges to continue on in their contentment, but I have a privilege (responsibility) equal to theirs to give my perspective when a new guy needs input on how to do things. Viscous goops and used motor oils will make blades that will bend to 90 degrees very nicely in other shops, in my shop they do this:
finepearl.jpg


With selective heat treating one can also get 90 degrees out of a blade with none of that fine pearlite in it, if that is their bag, but it will also perform in other areas equally as well instead of sacrificing and compromising in order to make the bend. Or worse, settling for lesser performance until you are famous, because with the competition these days that mindset will never get you there. As a collector would you be eager to support a new maker who is willing to settle or compromise on performance? And as a hobbiest why not have the first knife you make be the best it can be? If it is the only one you ever make why not have your grandchildren amazed at how well that heirloom cuts after all those years? As the old adage goes- "If it is worth doing..."
 
I too am very tired of beating this dead horse into the ground, but the pony keeps getting back up! I can't give up on this one, it is just too cut and dried to ignore.

Gas forges: $500-$1500
Belt grinder: $800-$2000
A/O torch: $400-$800
Carbon tool steel random length (approx 12’): $75- $300
Ton Coal: $300-$400
Propane pig refill: $150-$400
Drill press: $100- $400
Mill: $850- $10,000
Etc…, etc…

Better custom knife prices $300-$8,000

5 gallons of well formulated quench oil: $35-$75

Come on guys…
 
I got into knifemaking not only to fulfill a desire to create, but also because I wish to make the best knife I can.
...Probably out of pride, part of him wants to make a good knife he can present to others... ...Why not hit the market with a $500 knife that can cut like a $1000 dollar knife made by the established guys?...

Right on, MrPurple. If I want a good-enough knife, I can save myself whole lot of trouble and buy something at WalMart. Or a finished blade from TKS or Jantz and put some nice scales on it. I've done both those things a few times, and I want to make a step up.

Kevin, pride is a big factor for me. Marketing aside (although I think your comments on that are spot-on), I don't want my name on anything I'm not real sure of. Put it this way, in my wannabe-rockstar days I was a real PIA about performances being just right. Perfection is rare if it exists at all, but it's worth pursuing.

Stacy, your point about a respirator is well-taken. If I can afford to cough up a couple hundred for tools, I can surely afford a mask.

In any case, you've talked me into your way of thinking, guys. I want to learn it right from the beginning and be able to replicate good results. Thanks for all your patience!

-James

Kevin, I like that illustration of your point, but you forgot one thing: Wa$ted time/broken knives = $$$
 
We all start out simple and learn from that point on. Wayne's thoughts have brought many new makers into the world of knives because it can be easy, maybe not the best way, but affordable to the new maker on a budget.

I started simple and continue to learn, but one rule, always be willing and ready to read, study, experiment and share your knowledge. Testing will guide your future if you commit to it.

I welcome you to the world of forged blades and wish you luck.
 
...If you cut very sharp 90 degree shoulders into the steel before hardening it will cause a point of serious stress wich will lead to lesser strength in that area at best, and the tang just seperating from the blade at the worst.

Thanks Kevin, I always radius my shoulders with a round file to try to avoid stress risers. Assuming that I do that before I heat treat, would you still recommend not doing the filing before heat treating?

If it simply boils down to a matter of cost... ...As the old adage goes- "If it is worth doing..."
Well said Kevin! One thing I think you should add to explain what people are seeing in the picture. I think I know what I'm looking at, but it might have more impact if you pointed out what is what. A side by side with a properly quenched knife might help too. Of course, some people are too stubborn to want to know...

I too am very tired of beating this dead horse into the ground...
Yes, but it's sooo frustrating. How to you keep from swearing and telling people off?! Maybe it's just my habitual lack of sleep, but I find myself loosing patience.

Keep up the fight to push back the frontiers of ignorance Kevin, Lord knows we need you.
smily436.gif
 
I think more people are paying attention, and learning, than you might realize. I know at least one beginner is.
 
Ok, so I still don't think you guys are getting my point. The guy asked for "a cheap easy to get quench.. basicaly nothing i gotta order.", and all as I'm saying is that I've heard plenty of people, respected people, suggest using things like used motor oil. I am NOT saying that it is somehow better than a proper quenching oil. I'm just answering his question the best I can as he asked it.

Kevin: According to the price list you've given, a couple bucks extra for quenching oil is pocket change, but what about the guy who just want's to try his hand at it to see if he'll even like it before spending thousands of dollars on equipment? What about the guy that is trying to make his first with the few tools he already has and has really only spent money on a firebrick and a torch? What about the guy that know's that he probably won't carry his first knife as an EDC but just want's to see what he can produce and if he even had fun doing it and go from there?
Also, would you care to explain what we are seeing in the picture you posted? Would you also mind posting a picture from a proper quenching oil so we can actually see for ourselves the difference?

MrPurple: I don't think that that logic would be the same as saying I would were a lime green suit because it was free, more like I would were a walmart suit because it was free.

Once again, let me just say that I am not suggesting that one is better than the other and I am not coming from an experienced background. I'm just relaying information I've come accross from my research, and this thread is likely to add to my knowledge. Until now I have never heard anyone argue so adimately of the merits of using a properly formulated quenching oil over any other oil, I've just heard people say that they use or prefer this over that or visa versa, never really any proof of how this is more superior to that or visa versa. I would love to see proof if anyone is willing to give it, otherwise it's just a matter of prefference to me. Maybe we are beating a dead horse, but this is all new to me, so please forgive a beginner for his lack of experience.
 
Ok, so I still don't think you guys are getting my point. The guy asked for a poor man's quenchant, and all as I'm saying is that I've heard plenty of people, respected people, suggest using things like used motor oil. I am NOT saying that it is somehow better than a proper quenching oil.

Fair point. Of course, that's why "$50 Knife Shop" was written in the first place.
Let's say I use leftover fryer oil or used motor oil for my first couple attempts; if it turns out half-way decent, am I gonna stick with it, or go for the good stuff? Me, I'll go for the good stuff, if for no other reason than at least I know what the heck is in it. I don't see how the filth that accumulates in motor or fryer oils can help any, for instance. And if it works OK with "junk" oil that was never meant to quench steel, it makes sense it would work better with new oil designed for that purpose. Fair enough?

Maybe we are beating a dead horse, but this is all new to me, so please forgive a beginner for his lack of experience.

I second that :)
 
Ok, so this thread got me looking into quenching oils, since it's "so cheap". I found some at Ellis custom knife works. As mentioned it is only $18 for a gallon, not too bad, but hard for me to justify spending to the wife, then I saw how much it was for shipping, another $18!, so now that $18 gallon of oil turned into $36, no way I can justify that expenditure to the wife. If this knife making adventure turns out well and I enjoy doing it and get to the point of possibly selling some of my knives, then maybe I'll look into quenching oil, unless there's a store that sells it locally so I don't have to pay that much for shipping.

Man, seeing the shipping price reminded me of those idiots who think they are getting such a great deal on ebay because they are saving $10, but shipping is $15 so they actually end up paying $5 more than they would have if they just went to there local store, and not only did they pay more, but now they have to wait for there merchandise.

SHIPPING IS PART OF THE PRICE OF THE PRODUCT! DON'T TELL ME HOW MUCH SOMETHING IS ON A WEBSITE UNLESS THAT PRICE INCLUDES SHIPPING. Unless of course it's a $150+ item and shipping is only $2.

I MUST be looking in the wrong place, so please Kevin tell me were I can get quenching oil for $7 - $15 a gallon and includes the price of shipping unless shipping is no more than $5.
 
McMaster Carr P/N 3202K4..... 11 Sec. Quenching Oil $13.63/gal + S/H in one gallon qty.
 
$13.63 is a little better, but that site didn't tell me how much shipping was going to be, even after I put in my address and everything, for all I know, shipping is going to be $80, not likely, but you get the idea. How do I find out what the shipping charges will be if I order from McMaster Carr?

Also, is their 11-second quenching oil what I would want to use for 1080?
 
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