Pricing questions...

I follow you on YouTube, actually, I've used several of your ideas and watched your videos numerous times. I learned almost solely by watching others. Your pricing, as an amateur knife enthusiast, is high for me. As a "maker," I understand your need to be paid for your time, and I then understand your pricing scale.

Now, I come from another technically professional area. Woodworking and luthiery. This type of "price disdain" is ever present in that field as well. Actually, it is so bad, I have retired from it (at 25, after six years of doing it.) I only tell you this to reenforce the sentiment of "never make your hobby a job."

My .02$ for what it is worth.
 
Over many years some of what I see happening is makers starting off with high prices and even poor quality. They are able to get away with this because there isn't any competition for them. When they need to develop more sales it means going out of their comfort zone. It most often turns out to be a real kick in the back side. The now competing makers justly take business away from them. I know one maker who does lovely work but without a doubt always has over the top prices on his knives. He is always complaining that the sales aren`t there for him as they should be for the work he is putting out. No the sales aren`t there but then he doesn`t have competitive prices either. As well he likes to use the cheapest materials that may have been popular at one time but no longer are such as say buffalo horn on a knife he lists for $1800 or so. Yes, he does sell a few but not as many as he wish he could and he always wonders why. So what I`m saying here is yes the demand for the knife you are selling may be falsely produced by the lack of completion or knowledgeable buyers. No, This doesn`t mean you should give your work away. I believe however that being truly competitive will in the end be worth while. Frank
 
Make something others can't, or haven't; something they won't find from manufacturers. We are, you are, after all, a custom knifemaker. A special handle, a complex grind, work at it and the sales will come, prices and demand will increase. That's my take anyway. But, like Stacey said, it's just plain ole fun to me.
 
I have made a small fortune from knifemaking. Of course, I started out with a large fortune. :) :) Stacey's post is 'right on',
 
FTO_dude said:
Aaron, do you know what percentage of your current orders came from reddit?
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I don't have exact numbers (I should go back and work that out at some point) but I believe orders from Reddit only account for 20% or so of my order volume. Most of my orders come from people that have watched my YouTube videos.

SunnO))) said:
I follow you on YouTube, actually, I've used several of your ideas and watched your videos numerous times. I learned almost solely by watching others. Your pricing, as an amateur knife enthusiast, is high for me. As a "maker," I understand your need to be paid for your time, and I then understand your pricing scale.

Now, I come from another technically professional area. Woodworking and luthiery. This type of "price disdain" is ever present in that field as well. Actually, it is so bad, I have retired from it (at 25, after six years of doing it.) I only tell you this to reenforce the sentiment of "never make your hobby a job."

My .02$ for what it is worth.
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"Price Disdain" is a great phrase. I keep hearing 'never make your hobby a job', that is the one thing that worries me... If the fun was to leave that would obviously be a real issue. BUt from past experience if I have free reign over what I'm doing then that can get boring as well. There are numerous ways to burn out I think, walking in between them is hard and perhaps not always possible.

Frank Niro said:
Over many years some of what I see happening is makers starting off with high prices and even poor quality. They are able to get away with this because there isn't any competition for them. When they need to develop more sales it means going out of their comfort zone. It most often turns out to be a real kick in the back side. The now competing makers justly take business away from them. I know one maker who does lovely work but without a doubt always has over the top prices on his knives. He is always complaining that the sales aren`t there for him as they should be for the work he is putting out. No the sales aren`t there but then he doesn`t have competitive prices either. As well he likes to use the cheapest materials that may have been popular at one time but no longer are such as say buffalo horn on a knife he lists for $1800 or so. Yes, he does sell a few but not as many as he wish he could and he always wonders why. So what I`m saying here is yes the demand for the knife you are selling may be falsely produced by the lack of completion or knowledgeable buyers. No, This doesn`t mean you should give your work away. I believe however that being truly competitive will in the end be worth while. Frank
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I'll be curious to see if things pan out this way, but that hasn't been my impression so far. Most people are buying my knivs because they've seen my YouTube videos which show how much care goes into them. I've worked hard to make sure I'm turning out a quality knife, and now I'm starting to get through orders... I guess we'll see how it washes out.

David Stifle said:
Make something others can't, or haven't; something they won't find from manufacturers. We are, you are, after all, a custom knifemaker. A special handle, a complex grind, work at it and the sales will come, prices and demand will increase. That's my take anyway. But, like Stacey said, it's just plain ole fun to me.
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The main thing that I'm offering that others aren't is a high level of visibility into my processes via my YouTube videos (it's kind of fun for me too on that side, as I keep having to make new videos as my processes change, I'm due for another one as soon as I have time). Also, I know that ornate designs are popular in the knifemaking community as they're great examples of the makers skill, but I prefer minimalist utilitarian designs instead and I think this resonates with people that are looking for a knife that speaks purpose rather than branding or whatever... Nothing wrong with either approach I don't think, it's just a matter of what the user is looking for. Everyone likes different things, so the design aspect of all this is really something that's harder to speak to.

Goldsmithy said:
I have made a small fortune from knifemaking. Of course, I started out with a large fortune. :) :) Stacey's post is 'right on',
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That's also been my experience so far, lots of money sunk, not much back. That being said I sure have enjoyed it all so far! Interacting with customers and tweaking designs to their needs has been especially gratifying.
 
FTO_dude said:
Aaron, do you know what percentage of your current orders came from reddit?
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I should note too that the orders from Reddit were an unexpected surprise. I've been a Reddit user for over 6 years, and I was basically posting stuff there because my friends were tired of hearing me go on about knives, so I wanted to chat to new people! The reception was very warm and my first customers came from there... It's always nice to have a community like that to interact with. Much like what we're seeing here on BladeForums!
 
I hadn't read Andy's post before. Thank God I'm one of those hobbiest, because going full time sounds like a miserable existance. Ten percent profit? You gotta be kidding. That's rough.
 
David Stifle said:
I hadn't read Andy's post before. Thank God I'm one of those hobbiest, because going full time sounds like a miserable existance. Ten percent profit? You gotta be kidding. That's rough.
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Indeed. I'm definitely planning on keeping it as a side thing until I'm sure one way or another if I can make it going full-time... I'd rather have the struggle confined to a day job I potentially don't like as opposed to spreading to the thing I love.

Once again I want to thank everyone who's contributed to this thread. It's been enlightening in a number of ways, and it's always good to see other people's side of the story.
 
If you are able to sell your knives at $300 and they are selling briskly, then what problem do you have? This is what confuses me about the thread. When I went full time, it was because I got laid off. I had always approached it as a job, kinda like you, and so I didn't care much about that part. I already had a bit of brand recognition, and having no choice, I went full time. I called my friend Jerry Hossom for some advice, and he told me that the challenge wasn't making the knives, but selling the knives. He was right. The Stacey Apelts, and Jerry Hossoms in the world, who constantly post wisdom freely to new knife makers on the forums are a blessing. Listen to them, and get into a guild. Most states have them. I am blessed in GA to have a GREAT one to participate in.

We recently upped production to 30+ pieces a week (3 batches of 11). I have hired people. I have had to fire people. I have to have the employees to make 30 knives, and I have to sell the knives to pay the people and run the ship. I pray that the marketplace creates demand needed to sustain the current prices which are lower than yours. Your 4" bladed g10 handled knife without a tapered tang would be $255 from me. I set them there because I think 300 is a critical tipping point between users and safe queens. In addition, the market for knives above $300 is increasingly small to an order of magnitude by $1000.

I get real pissy about how this market is constantly undercut by the hobbyist, who in their magnitude, are a very real selector in a market where folks are trying to create businesses. You have to survive their zeal to pay for only their tools. You have to out do them. You have to out grind them, out work them, and overcome them. I try to do this by making more and more knives in the same amount of time. You'll have to overcome it also.

I really don't want a debate about the hobbyist. Good luck to them also. I love knives, the knife market, and knifemakers. I'm in hog heaven at the GA Guild meetings. I know my opinion on hobbyists is defensive and driven by business pressure. Thats OK too IMO. This is how I feed my family, and I don't apologize for being a bullheaded pusher. Its how I've made it work. I plan to outwork the market. Its the only edge I have. There are stronger, smarter, better craftsman than myself around every corner. I'm used to that and I don't take it as a negative. I strive!

I pray for demand. Its how I go to sleep each evening. If you are going to be a full time knifemaker, get with it and pray for demand. And, work your ass off too. Pray for demand, and work your ass off.

I still have fun. But its not the most efficient way to make $ by a long shot.
 
Taking orders is a problem for your business model IMO. There is a lot more overhead in each ordered knife and the time to dedicate to the overhead will stifle your line.
 
Fiddleback said:
If you are able to sell your knives at $300 and they are selling briskly, then what problem do you have? This is what confuses me about the thread. When I went full time, it was because I got laid off. I had always approached it as a job, kinda like you, and so I didn't care much about that part. I already had a bit of brand recognition, and having no choice, I went full time. I called my friend Jerry Hossom for some advice, and he told me that the challenge wasn't making the knives, but selling the knives. He was right. The Stacey Apelts, and Jerry Hossoms in the world, who constantly post wisdom freely to new knife makers on the forums are a blessing. Listen to them, and get into a guild. Most states have them. I am blessed in GA to have a GREAT one to participate in.

We recently upped production to 30+ pieces a week (3 batches of 11). I have hired people. I have had to fire people. I have to have the employees to make 30 knives, and I have to sell the knives to pay the people and run the ship. I pray that the marketplace creates demand needed to sustain the current prices which are lower than yours. Your 4" bladed g10 handled knife without a tapered tang would be $255 from me. I set them there because I think 300 is a critical tipping point between users and safe queens. In addition, the market for knives above $300 is increasingly small to an order of magnitude by $1000.

I get real pissy about how this market is constantly undercut by the hobbyist, who in their magnitude, are a very real selector in a market where folks are trying to create businesses. You have to survive their zeal to pay for only their tools. You have to out do them. You have to out grind them, out work them, and overcome them. I try to do this by making more and more knives in the same amount of time. You'll have to overcome it also.

I really don't want a debate about the hobbyist. Good luck to them also. I love knives, the knife market, and knifemakers. I'm in hog heaven at the GA Guild meetings. I know my opinion on hobbyists is defensive and driven by business pressure. Thats OK too IMO. This is how I feed my family, and I don't apologize for being a bullheaded pusher. Its how I've made it work. I plan to outwork the market. Its the only edge I have. There are stronger, smarter, better craftsman than myself around every corner. I'm used to that and I don't take it as a negative. I strive!

I pray for demand. Its how I go to sleep each evening. If you are going to be a full time knifemaker, get with it and pray for demand. And, work your ass off too. Pray for demand, and work your ass off.

I still have fun. But its not the most efficient way to make $ by a long shot.
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Thanks for taking the time to share your experience Andy. I will admit that the main reason I started this thread was because I got rattled by how aggressive the gentleman's email was to me. I've never doubted the fairness of my prices before, and I've since gotten back to that state.

Fiddleback said:
Taking orders is a problem for your business model IMO. There is a lot more overhead in each ordered knife and the time to dedicate to the overhead will stifle your line.
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Do you mean taking orders for specific knives as opposed to just making knives and having people buy them as they see fit?

Yes, I agree about the overhead. I've been debating how to handle that though... For me talking to the customer and kind of 'meeting', finding out what they're passionate about and using the knives for is a big part of what makes it meaningful for me. I think that might get lost if I make knives and list them, as opposed to taking orders. But perhaps there is a better way to incorporate that into the process? I'm open to suggestions on that front!
 
Do a search about taking orders. I started a thread with my 5 reasons not to take orders and other have posted here on it as well. There is debate on that as well, of course. No reason to go through it again.

Listen. Never reduce your prices. Set them and live by them. You cannot undercut your dealers. So set your prices and hold to them even on Sunday at a show. Sundays at a knife show are about folks trying to get cheap knives. Hold your ground.
 
I know my opinion won't count for much considering who else is commenting, but as a knife buyer, I don't think your prices are far off. If I would have guessed what that knife would cost, I would have guessed $250. Some people just like to whine, I would ignore the email.
 
This has turned into quite a thread!

My advice, after reading through the posts--- is to listen to Andy. And, if your knives are selling and customers are happy, then you should be good to go.

Andy has a much better head for the business end of this stuff than I do.

I got a kick out of seeing my name mentioned as far as being a guy that could sell "that knife for that price." Cuz I couldn't. But that in no way means I think you shouldn't.

I think a lot of guys here see me post a knife in the $1000-1600 range in the exchange and think I command these crazy, awe-inspiring prices. Which I kind of get, considering that's pretty high compared to most of what's sold in the exchange... but the per hour rate is much lower than most of the guys selling $150 knives.

When I go to shows, I always get comments from Mastersmiths that if my knives were on their tables, the prices would be more. I had an integral on my table in San Antonio for $1600, and a VERY well known/established smith came by and said, "Son, I wouldn't have that knife on my table for a penny less than $2500."

I asked him if he would take it and put it on his table. ;) :D



I have tried many times to throw my hat in the ring for the "user grade" knives, but it doesn't seem to work very well for me. Now please keep in mind I like Andy and his work very much, and have great respect for him, so what I'm about to write is only being put up as food for thought, and sure as heck isn't any kind of dig on Andy!!! It's actually a nod to his success in this industry.

He said he'd sell a knife like what you described for $255.

The knife below is one of a small group that I made not that long ago. The blade is O1, hand sanded to a fine finish, it has a black G10 frame over the hidden tang, stabilized Amboyna scales that were hand sanded to 1500X, domed and polished 416 pins, and a veg tanned leather sheath. It sold for $275.

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I would love to be able to say, "Well, Andy Roy sells this knife with a full tang, machine finished blade, no domed pins, and no sheath for $245-255, so I should sell this fancied up one for $450."

But, it wouldn't happen. I don't have the strength in that part of the market that he has built.

Aaron, if you are starting off this strong, and have happy customers... then listen to Andy, and just keep it goin brother. :thumbup: :cool:
 
I didn't read your post Nick, but I wondered if you'd share the secrets of keeping your nails so purdy around the shop.. :P
 
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