Pricing questions...

[A.McPherson]

Fiddleback, have you read "atlas shrugged"? That post up there could have come directly out of that book... I wish more people had your ideals about hard work! That post was absolutely inspiring! Thank you sir!

 

[12345678910]

Baaaaaaaa

 

[12345678910]

I think there is a huge difference between knife buying people and art buying people.


If you could get knives into the pervue of folks that buy art, the prices would go much higher.






You could advertise an ounce of gold for $100, some jackass will still try to offer you $50

 

[aarongough]

I know my opinion won't count for much considering who else is commenting, but as a knife buyer, I don't think your prices are far off. If I would have guessed what that knife would cost, I would have guessed $250. Some people just like to whine, I would ignore the email.

Your opinion always counts mate. Knife makers aren't up to nearly as much if there are no knife buyers! Thank-you for taking the time to speak up!

This has turned into quite a thread!

My advice, after reading through the posts--- is to listen to Andy. And, if your knives are selling and customers are happy, then you should be good to go.

Andy has a much better head for the business end of this stuff than I do.

I got a kick out of seeing my name mentioned as far as being a guy that could sell "that knife for that price." Cuz I couldn't. But that in no way means I think you shouldn't.

I think a lot of guys here see me post a knife in the $1000-1600 range in the exchange and think I command these crazy, awe-inspiring prices. Which I kind of get, considering that's pretty high compared to most of what's sold in the exchange... but the per hour rate is much lower than most of the guys selling $150 knives.

When I go to shows, I always get comments from Mastersmiths that if my knives were on their tables, the prices would be more. I had an integral on my table in San Antonio for $1600, and a VERY well known/established smith came by and said, "Son, I wouldn't have that knife on my table for a penny less than $2500."

I asked him if he would take it and put it on his table.

I have tried many times to throw my hat in the ring for the "user grade" knives, but it doesn't seem to work very well for me. Now please keep in mind I like Andy and his work very much, and have great respect for him, so what I'm about to write is only being put up as food for thought, and sure as heck isn't any kind of dig on Andy!!! It's actually a nod to his success in this industry.

He said he'd sell a knife like what you described for $255.

The knife below is one of a small group that I made not that long ago. The blade is O1, hand sanded to a fine finish, it has a black G10 frame over the hidden tang, stabilized Amboyna scales that were hand sanded to 1500X, domed and polished 416 pins, and a veg tanned leather sheath. It sold for $275.

I would love to be able to say, "Well, Andy Roy sells this knife with a full tang, machine finished blade, no domed pins, and no sheath for $245-255, so I should sell this fancied up one for $450."

But, it wouldn't happen. I don't have the strength in that part of the market that he has built.

Aaron, if you are starting off this strong, and have happy customers... then listen to Andy, and just keep it goin brother. :thumbup:

I definitely think that making high-end user knives is a challenge. I'd like to try my hand at the fancier side of things at some point, but I don't think it will become my bread and butter. I love that there's so much room for variation in what should be such a 'simple' project: make a knife! Same goes will all the elements that we put into our knives like design and heat-treat. Simple, not so much! That's what makes it such an interesting thing to tackle for me!

As for happy customers: to date I've only managed to get knives into the hands of a very few people. They've been happy so far, but I think there's still plenty of room for improvement on my end. Many more knives will be going out over the next little while and hopefully they will be happy customers despite the wait. I know that I will do all I can to make them happy, and that's all any of us can say I guess!

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Dang it, it's not my place to comment, but I will anyway to sate my own selfish need.

I just want to say that Andy's thread really got to me.

I have bought more custom knives than I've made. Every one far exceeding what I've glued together myself. I had posted a thread a short time ago asking many of the questions that were answered in the thread that I linked to. My biggest one asking what your material and time cost were in relation to what your pricing is at. I think Andy brings up some very good and valid points. I don't agree with everything, but that's okay.

My biggest concern would be that makers would discontinue taking orders, but then I don't understand the market nearly enough (in relation to having a *successful* business) to really have a valid opinion.

I personally believe that the market is very different than it was only a few years ago. It's why I asked about your thoughts on the proliferation of so many new good (and sometimes great) makers. I believe it's the Internet, the open sharing of information and technology (especially technology), and as a buyer and user (and maybe a maker one day) I think it's a great thing. If I ever DO sell a knife though, I'll be thinking hard about pricing and the impact I have on the market overall.

Sorry to go ot. I think all of you are amazing, I wish all of you success and I'm very happy to have your help and be a small part of this forum. :thumbup:

 

[AVigil]

Ask yourself ....

Who pays for your time?
Who pays for your materials?
Who pays for your equipment?
Who pays for your bills?

Answer the question and you will find out who determines how much you sell your stuff for. Until people pony up the $$$ to pay your bills they are in no position to tell you what to charge in order to make money to pay those things.

Some knifemakers might charge less so they can actually have an income to pay the food bill or electric bill. If other makers are not willing to pay your bills then you charge whatever you need to get the $$$.

Some people charge $85 for a cord wrap knife and knifemakers are going to complain. Phill Hartsfield charges $650 for a small cord wrapped knife and knifemakers are going to complain...

The only thing you really can count on is people are going to complain... so charge what you need to, and there is nothing wrong with charging more or less to so you can put food on the table.

 

[GTH11]

:thumbup::thumbup: Hey that's my knife!! Lol, well thought out and executed from tip to sheath! Absolute steal for some Wheeler steel! and I arranged the pick up at his shop!! hehehehe :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[HallHandmade]

I probably fall a lot closer to Mr. Terrio than I do to Andy. Heck, I even accidently designed the same logo as he uses! (luckily he was kind enough to tell me to keep using mine, after I saw his and offered to change mine)

I thrive on the really oddball, challenging stuff. I love it. It's why I worked in r&d for so many years, until my body started to protest. I can barely stand making two of the same knife, let alone two hundred. I had the same problem in my career, I would go absolutely insane if I had to make more than about 5-10pcs of a part in the machine shop. I've always been a bit "special" like that, and I don't necessarily mean in a good way.

I know that taking on mostly custom orders/commissions (and then doing as you please the rest of the time) is a pretty terrible idea business wise, but it just happens to be the exact thing that I'm best at.



I think it's important to follow your heart and your gut, if you are interested in spending months perfecting a single production design, or taking commissions and never doing the same knife twice, I feel that you can succeed as long as you do it with passion and hard work.

 

[aarongough]

I probably fall a lot closer to Mr. Terrio than I do to Andy. Heck, I even accidently designed the same logo as he uses! (luckily he was kind enough to tell me to keep using mine, after I saw his and offered to change mine)

I thrive on the really oddball, challenging stuff. I love it. It's why I worked in r&d for so many years, until my body started to protest. I can barely stand making two of the same knife, let alone two hundred. I had the same problem in my career, I would go absolutely insane if I had to make more than about 5-10pcs of a part in the machine shop. I've always been a bit "special" like that, and I don't necessarily mean in a good way.

I know that taking on mostly custom orders/commissions (and then doing as you please the rest of the time) is a pretty terrible idea business wise, but it just happens to be the exact thing that I'm best at.



I think it's important to follow your heart and your gut, if you are interested in spending months perfecting a single production design, or taking commissions and never doing the same knife twice, I feel that you can succeed as long as you do it with passion and hard work.

I've always found it challenging and perhaps vaguely uncomfortable to repeat the same work as well, that's actually part of the reason why I decided do repeat the Resolute design. That being said I have to leaven that kind of activity with R&D work, otherwise I would definitely go nuts.

I'm not sure what I'll end up doing in the future. Always fun to find out though!

 

[aarongough]

Dang it, it's not my place to comment, but I will anyway to sate my own selfish need.

I just want to say that Andy's thread really got to me.

I have bought more custom knives than I've made. Every one far exceeding what I've glued together myself. I had posted a thread a short time ago asking many of the questions that were answered in the thread that I linked to. My biggest one asking what your material and time cost were in relation to what your pricing is at. I think Andy brings up some very good and valid points. I don't agree with everything, but that's okay.

My biggest concern would be that makers would discontinue taking orders, but then I don't understand the market nearly enough (in relation to having a *successful* business) to really have a valid opinion.

I personally believe that the market is very different than it was only a few years ago. It's why I asked about your thoughts on the proliferation of so many new good (and sometimes great) makers. I believe it's the Internet, the open sharing of information and technology (especially technology), and as a buyer and user (and maybe a maker one day) I think it's a great thing. If I ever DO sell a knife though, I'll be thinking hard about pricing and the impact I have on the market overall.

Sorry to go ot. I think all of you are amazing, I wish all of you success and I'm very happy to have your help and be a small part of this forum. :thumbup:

I'm really unsure how I'm going to handle the ordering process going forward. As I said earlier I actually quite enjoy interacting with customers and learning more about their story. That being said I don't like keeping people waiting, and right now that's what I'm doing when taking orders as I haven't been able to keep up... If I was to just sell them as I make them, then at least I wouldn't be keeping people waiting.

 

[aarongough]

I found the thread that Andy referenced earlier about why he does not take orders: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/855549-5-Reasons-I-Stopped-Taking-Orders

There's some great stuff in there! Definitely worth a read through.

I must say I'm really impressed with everything that has come from this thread! Lots of great reading.

 

[HallHandmade]

Aaron,

Have you considered KMG smuggling instead of Knifemaking?

 

[Omega Leather Works]

The "custom" knife designation has always meant a knife that *I* basically designed, with input and help (the essence or spirit of the knife so to speak) coming from the maker.

I think the line has blurred a bit, and I'm still wrapping my head around not having a say, but I'm okay with it. In the end my recommendation to the maker is to design what he wants anyway so it really isn't much of an issue. Not sure what it says about me, but I'd much rather have something the maker designed. I do like some options on things like handle material and color though.

As for taking deposits (addressed in the last linked thread), I would never do it. I recommend anyone who considers starting looking at the Good, Bad & Ugly forum. Too many truly sad stories (one happening right now!).

 

[Frank Niro]

I didn't know that working your heart out as well as physically going all out was something done that only a full time maker was capable of. As well I want to say as a part time maker I don't feel bad at all if I'm able to grab business away from someone like Andy who is a full time maker. And, as well if I want to sell , which I do, one knife at a time who says my evaluation for the market I see to aim for , is incorrect . Selling thirty knives a week doesn't allow someone to call me down. Did you ever consider that perhaps the few I do manage to sell may be all I have to keep me barely above board financially? Well, in truth, not for me but for many I know it might be so. You go to bed crying about that "hobby guy" making sales but all he's doing to you is giving you the "business". What about the factory makers? Are you making efforts to call them down because they as well are taking your business? It seems you are a bit confused in this world of needing to sell and more directly the question of the knife in question. Most all responses have said the same that the estimated value was about $250 but sure sell for the $300 if the business was there to support that price. Some of us were concerned that a high price might slow back sales considerably not that it shouldn't be asked. Well just maybe you would be pleased to see Aaron shut down since he is only a part time maker and screw those guys you know. Perhaps you would like to give us the rates and benefits you are paying your employees so we can decide if you are being fair enough? No, I didn't think so. At my last place of employment I worked for a company that had the benefits and wages to allow my wife and I to plan I could one day work at the knife making as I wished. When I left that place of work the knife making became a full time plus thing, not because I had to have the money but because I had the energy and the desire to do so. Well, that was several years ago. My hours at the knife making are cut way back. The desire is still there but not the energy. Fortunately your crap that I shouldn't be doing this is just that. If you need more money I suggest as you did, get out and earn it ! What disappointing remarks to read in a group where probably 85% are part time and hobby makers. I say shame on you Mr. Andy Roy . Frank Niro
.

 

[Fiddleback]

This has turned into quite a thread!

My advice, after reading through the posts--- is to listen to Andy. And, if your knives are selling and customers are happy, then you should be good to go.

Andy has a much better head for the business end of this stuff than I do.

I got a kick out of seeing my name mentioned as far as being a guy that could sell "that knife for that price." Cuz I couldn't. But that in no way means I think you shouldn't.

I think a lot of guys here see me post a knife in the $1000-1600 range in the exchange and think I command these crazy, awe-inspiring prices. Which I kind of get, considering that's pretty high compared to most of what's sold in the exchange... but the per hour rate is much lower than most of the guys selling $150 knives.

When I go to shows, I always get comments from Mastersmiths that if my knives were on their tables, the prices would be more. I had an integral on my table in San Antonio for $1600, and a VERY well known/established smith came by and said, "Son, I wouldn't have that knife on my table for a penny less than $2500."

I asked him if he would take it and put it on his table.



I have tried many times to throw my hat in the ring for the "user grade" knives, but it doesn't seem to work very well for me. Now please keep in mind I like Andy and his work very much, and have great respect for him, so what I'm about to write is only being put up as food for thought, and sure as heck isn't any kind of dig on Andy!!! It's actually a nod to his success in this industry.

He said he'd sell a knife like what you described for $255.

The knife below is one of a small group that I made not that long ago. The blade is O1, hand sanded to a fine finish, it has a black G10 frame over the hidden tang, stabilized Amboyna scales that were hand sanded to 1500X, domed and polished 416 pins, and a veg tanned leather sheath. It sold for $275.

I would love to be able to say, "Well, Andy Roy sells this knife with a full tang, machine finished blade, no domed pins, and no sheath for $245-255, so I should sell this fancied up one for $450."

But, it wouldn't happen. I don't have the strength in that part of the market that he has built.

Aaron, if you are starting off this strong, and have happy customers... then listen to Andy, and just keep it goin brother. :thumbup:

Thanks Nick. That knife is gorgeous. My kids asked if you painted your nails. LOL I said. IIRC, Nick has much burlier arms than that.


EDITED to add that I will buy one like that one you posted Nick. Send me a PM. I'd love to own one of your knives. Don't try and list it to me for $275 either. Thats not fair. I'll pay $500.

 

[Fiddleback]

Fiddleback, have you read "atlas shrugged"? That post up there could have come directly out of that book... I wish more people had your ideals about hard work! That post was absolutely inspiring! Thank you sir!

I haven't read it. I'll check it out.

I didn't know that working your heart out as well as physically going all out was something done that only a full time maker was capable of. As well I want to say as a part time maker I don't feel bad at all if I'm able to grab business away from someone like Andy who is a full time maker. And, as well if I want to sell , which I do, one knife at a time who says my evaluation for the market I see to aim for , is incorrect . Selling thirty knives a week doesn't allow someone to call me down. Did you ever consider that perhaps the few I do manage to sell may be all I have to keep me barely above board financially? Well, in truth, not for me but for many I know it might be so. You go to bed crying about that "hobby guy" making sales but all he's doing to you is giving you the "business". What about the factory makers? Are you making efforts to call them down because they as well are taking your business? It seems you are a bit confused in this world of needing to sell and more directly the question of the knife in question. Most all responses have said the same that the estimated value was about $250 but sure sell for the $300 if the business was there to support that price. Some of us were concerned that a high price might slow back sales considerably not that it shouldn't be asked. Well just maybe you would be pleased to see Aaron shut down since he is only a part time maker and screw those guys you know. Perhaps you would like to give us the rates and benefits you are paying your employees so we can decide if you are being fair enough? No, I didn't think so. At my last place of employment I worked for a company that had the benefits and wages to allow my wife and I to plan I could one day work at the knife making as I wished. When I left that place of work the knife making became a full time plus thing, not because I had to have the money but because I had the energy and the desire to do so. Well, that was several years ago. My hours at the knife making are cut way back. The desire is still there but not the energy. Fortunately your crap that I shouldn't be doing this is just that. If you need more money I suggest as you did, get out and earn it ! What disappointing remarks to read in a group where probably 85% are part time and hobby makers. I say shame on you Mr. Andy Roy . Frank Niro
.

Frank, I like you. You know this. Did you think before today that you were going to like all my opinions. Did you think that I didn't have any opinions about knives that arent driven by worry. Well, here I am. Human.

I'm going to address a couple of your remarks individually.

1. I have not seen many hobbyists that really work hard at it. This is from experience, and I'm not alone in noticing it. Recently AG Russell called knifemakers out for the same thing. Regardless of whether it upsets you, it has always been my edge. I'm no master knifemaker, and there are many makers that make better knives and know more. So I grasp to my work ethic and keep my head down.

2. I'm allowed to write what I please. Its not about calling you down, which I certainly didn't intend. And it doesn't matter how many knives I make. Its a freedom thing we still have here. I can't make all my opinions, and for sure can't make business advice always pleasant. I post honestly. I don't give craftsman advice much because who comes here to listen to an apprentice level knifemaker telling them how its done. I stick to business advice because its something I know. I'm not posting bullshit, and I'm not posting to upset you. Nick sells a $500 knife for $275. This is because of hobbyists. If you get all defensive reading that, then do some soul searching. You don't need to be mad at me or apologize to me. I'm doing fine.

3. I don't understand the factory argument. I don't see factory knives biting into the hourly rate of knifemakers. I don't buy factory knives much. Their designs are dead feeling to me.

4. I've not advised Aaron to shut down. I didn't advise him to change anything about his business. In fact, I didn't give him any negative advice. That came from Stacey and others who commented on the value of his knives by the look of them. I did not make any such comments. This is fundamental. Aaron is charging a fair labor rate. AND, he is getting it. Good on him.

5. I'm not going to go posting what I pay. But, IMO, I am a good fair person to work for. My checks cash. I don't feel like I need to justify anything about my pay rates and employees to you or anyone here.

6. Your last few sentences are what I am talking about. You say your energy has declined. Its hard work. I get that. There isn't anything fancy about a day at the knife shop. Its tough. At the end of the day, your neck and shoulders are killing you, your hands throb, and you've been breathing through a respirator all day. Most jobs are easier than that, and most people would choose the easier way. If you want to outwork me, then get to the shop at 4:30 am and go home at 6 or 7 pm. Here is a fact. Most Americans won't work like that. Its true of knifemakers too.

Frank, I like you a lot and always delight to read your posts. Please don't take my postings here as offensive. They weren't intended that way. I don't sugarcoat them. They take too long to type out as is. If I did offend you, then I apologize to you.

 

[ron_m80]

If you could get knives into the pervue of folks that buy art, the prices would go much higher.

A'la Bob Kramer?

I haven't read it. I'll check it out.

A future Ayn Rand fan for sure.

 

[Willie71]

I always thought my knives or other hobby maker knives are less money because they aren't as good as the guys who invest the hours into doing this full time. I don't mean this as an insult, but doing something 8-10 hours per day develops the skills at a level that doing it 8-10 hours per week will never get to. Don't get me wrong, there are great hobby makers, but for most, a hobby maker with three years experience has a lot less practice than a full time maker of the same duration. More time in generally means more refinement. A 10 year hobby maker will generally have more skill than a 1 year full time maker though. Pricing to me seems to be about the market, the reputation of the maker, and the individual piece, and the buyer. If I sell a bowie for $400.00, I sure as hell am not taking away a sale from a JS or MS. Different market and buyer. The person wanting the cheapest knife available is not the same person who wants a hand built custom of the highest quality.

 

[12345678910]

A'la Bob Kramer?

Bob has seen a toehold improvement

I had this in mind more



http://twentytwowords.com/2013/05/1...-line-sells-for-nearly-44-million-4-pictures/

This painting was
$44 Million dollars at auction.

The line isn't even all that straight; It's fuzzy at the edges

Newman overwhelms and seduces the viewer with the totality of its sensual, cascading washes of vibrant blue coexisting with Newman’s vertical “Sign” of the human presence, his iconic and revolutionary “zip.”

 

[Adam Buttry]

As someone new to this craft, I've been following this thread closely for obvious reasons. With that said, I can't tell if I've gained clarity on this subject or further confusion.