Primitive living tools: axe, knife, and saw...which first?

P

Plainsman

Joined
Apr 5, 1999
Messages
1,163
I just got finished with the book, Bushcraft: Outdoor Skills and Wilderness Survival by Mors L. Kochanski. Mors says that for primitive living in northern woodlands that an AXE would be the tool of his choice if he could only have ONE!

I found this somewhat surprising, to say the least.

His thoughts on knives were similar to this:
the design: an oval handled, guardless knife with a blade at least one handwidth long BUT no longer than two handwidths and the bladewidth about 1".

Definitely not a heavy duty knife.

The saw he recommends is a bow saw with a sturdy single piece construction. No takedowns/collapsibles. You should have multiple blades with large to fine teeth for wood to bone cutting.

I can understand and will agree with most of this.

Comments on his tool selections. Especially on an axe for ONE TOOL!
smile.gif


Thanks!


------------------
Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com


 
i would definitely choose an axe over a saw, as i could sharpen an axe with any old stone or whatever, but i have no clue how to sharpen a saw(i heard you can do it with a triangular file?)and i highly doubt i would be able to do it under primitive/survival situations.
also, i think all i would be able to use a saw for is cutting wood(and maybe bone, or really soft stone(soapstone))
whereas i can use the axe to chop down small trees, lop off branches, split largelogs into smaller pieces-important for fire fuel, or making usable type things out of logs.
also, the axe would probabally have a flat opposite the blade i could use for hammering things, and, if i got a decent edge on the axe, i could choke up on the handle, and use it kinda like an ulu for skinning, cutting stuff, etc.
also, i dont think i would be able to do anything about a broken saw, maybe i could fashion a new handle out of a springy peice of wood, but i think it would be more likely for a blade to break, and i couldnt do anything about that.
on the otherhand, its highly unlikely that the axe-head would break, even if im using it
smile.gif
and if the handle breaks, i could fashion another one without too much dificulty.

personally, im more comfortable with a knife, and i have several decent knives, but i dont have any axes(except for one i found in a mangrove swamp on a geology field trip, and i think it would take days of grinding to put an edge on it
smile.gif
)




------------------
AKTI member #A000911

 
I think that what you grew up with has a lot to do with this one. I have always leaned towards the knife, then the ax with a saw coming in third. But when I grew up those are the tools my father taught me with, and also the tools of the people that had a share in my training used most.

------------------
Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
Long term survival definately an axe. Easier
to build long term shelter. I can do just about everything with an axe that I can with
a knife and more things with an axe. I would
be finding some metal real quick to forge into a knife with the axe. with this day and
age there aren't too many places that you
can't find metal - it may taake a hike (no pun intended) but in long term survival you
will definately have some time on your hands.
For short term ( under three months) I would
take one or the other of my styles of camp
knife. saws a convience.
Axes are under rated for survival especially
if you have one forge properly and have one
that will sharpen easily with a file to hair
popping. I love double bit axes but in a survival sit. I would prefer a single bit
with a 2/3size handle

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91



[This message has been edited by goshawk (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
I agree. In the northwoods where trees are so thick an ax would be a must. Especially if it is light enuff to carry comfortably. A saw would be a luxery but on a cold Minn. night it takes a lot of wood to keep warm and a saw sure makes collecting fire wood a lot faster and easier than doing it all with an ax.
 
Yes you guys are definety thinking right. I would prefer a quality hand axe or full size over a saw or a big blade.
My hand axe i got at auction. I love the thing. It cost three dollars! It is a Plumb Legacy. Sharpens up to hair popping with a file and stone. I think i would rather carry my hand axe in the woods over my basic 9. ALthough i would prefer to have both with me
smile.gif

Yep....watch auctions or maybe buy a firestone belt axe or something. Whatever you get make sure it is of functional quality and has good edge geo.
just some thoughts,
And have a Merry CHRISTmas
Luke
 
Lukers, this intierly off the subject but I noticed you are from Crete Neb. I understand that Crete is rather small, is there any chance that you know a family there named Bussard? I had a very good freind years ago in Colo. named Peggy Bussard and she was from Crete. Just had to ask.
 
Primitive living is different than wilderness survival. Don't confuse the two.

In wilderness survival, axes are nice and I like to have one...but I have to voice my openion here.

I have no problems with taking a heavy duty (the nice large ones that resemble a chainsaw blade) saw blade in a can and a big knife. I have never had a problem in any environment (baron ice excluded) in getting enough fire wood to last a long long long time with these two devices. In fact, with the heavy saw and 17 inch Bolo, I am able to build fires that last all night without constantly feeding them.

Also, realize the bigger wood that you use...in most cases doesn't need to be split and will burn just fine. In fact, you don't even have to cut bolts in most cases...you just feed them through the fire (you can also lay the center on the fire and let it cut them if you want).

so if weight is an issue...I leave the axe at home without hesitation. You don't need it...either trust me on this one or come to one of our classes and I'll show you. You don't need an axe to survive in comfort and it won't be any harder without one....

food for thought.

------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
If you're just trying to get out of an area instead of living there a decent fixed blade knife, and maybe even a larger folding hunter with a knife and saw blade make sense. If you want to make things like a robust shelter, cache, large wood pile, etc., then an ax makes a lot more sense as the one tool to have. These days it seems that it's not as common to have to stick it out for long periods in a survival situation, and since chopping wood is calorie intensive it's often not a good idea to build log cabins when you're trying to live off of roots and rodents.
 
An interesting topic!

If you are interested in the use of axes and hatchets, then looking at some older books might give an idea of the way that they were selected and used. Nessmuk and Horace Kephart come to mind as authors. Interesting reading and the books are again available. Axes weren't just used for two handed chopping, but rather as flexible tools, depending on how they were held.

The first problem will be getting hold of a really good axe/hatchet, and setting it up. Many years ago when people in this area really knew these tools, and good stuff was available, choosing an axe was still good for an hour (or two) at the hardware store with lots of lively advice. Simply: getting a good piece of steel with really good wood took sorting through lots of good specimens. Then you had to thin the blade and sand the handle and drill the butt to fill with a "special formula" oil and cap the hole (The idea being that the oil would gradually soak along the straight grain of the handle, and work from the inside out). The idea was to end up with a very sharp implement with a very springy durable handle - more along the idea of a knife with a wooden handle than most people's notion of an axe. Naturally you made a proper sheath for it.
Hopefully this shows why older books on the outdoors discourage large knives - the axe or hatchet was your large knife, and a very versatile one, because of the possibility of different grips on the handle. Even if you carry a two foot long knife you can't hold it half way down the blade and do work like you can with an axe. You then had a thin bladed sheath knife for skinning and other chores and a pocket knife to cut your toenails with, and for fine whittling.

The use of the axe and especially the hatchet involved a lot of skill. We used to have competitions at fall fairs where a match is stuck into a stump and you split it with a full sized axe to have two halves both burning. Once upon a time it took a lot of matches to decide the winner, since it went on until someone failed. To bring this into perspective, think of making fuzzy sticks for fire starting. This was done with the axe/hatchet (chopping motion)and can be done much faster than with a knife, but swinging a sharp blade close to fingers takes a lot of skill. Strangely I've never seen anyone use even a large knife this way. I don't think you could: the axe was held just behind the head with the handle under the forearm allowing a lot of control.
So that's the second problem - acquiring skill both in regular chopping, and in using the axe as a large knife.

Anyway, so many years ago when I taught winter survival to teenagers I never allowed them to use a hatchet, just a full sized axe used as an axe (It's hard to cut your toes or leg with a 36" axe, incredibly easy with a short axe). For inexperienced kids to use an axe or hatchet as an all around implement was to invite an accident. Parents would hike in to have coffee and see how we were doing - and expect to see a loaded rifle in easy reach (grizzly country) - but they took the axe very seriously. We always got questions on how the kids were using the axe! I can see why skills were not passed on... Seriously, you probably will get hurt as you learn - everyone who used axes had a scar for the one and only time they got careless/hurried. I do.

I guess the bottom line to what I've posted is that even a hatchet can be vastly superior to a large knife if a person has the skill. Just the physics should make this obvious with chopping, but that's only part of the use. Remember the skill though for other uses. Your fingers really are on the line while you achieve the skill -if you use a hatchet/axe to cut fuzzy sticks and such with a chopping stroke!

Greg made an excellent point with regard to knife and saw being very capable. Hopefully he won't be upset if I say that if those are what you have, you will choose a site where they will achieve results with the least possible work. The use of axes comes from a time when people often camped out for a specific purpose such as shooting a moose close to dark and then having to set up a camp to do the field dressing by firelight. Simply - an axe comes in handy when you meet very unfavorable conditions - which normally you'd avoid. Of course if you have tried to quarter a moose with just a large knife, you'll know why axes and rigid saws are appreciated and carried. Now it seems that most people hunt close to roads. Despite the explanation, I'm really going with Greg on this one. Unless you had a good reason - for sure you'd camp in a favorable spot and not set up close to dark.

I hope that my ramblings have made some sense. I won't be upset if people write that I'm "full of it" because I didn't believe the match splitting and other stuff until I saw it done on a regular basis. With "strike anywhere" matches now you can't even split them with a knife, since the sticks are not machined with the grain... I've tried on lots. Years ago smokers would regularly split matches with a pocket knife. I guess splitting matches with an axe is long gone.

Like I said at the beginning it's an interesting topic. It's also a huge one. We still have whole books on axemanship in the library, but I notice no one has taken them out in a long time...
So, Plainsman, I hope I've brought up some food for thought. I haven't read Mors' book but I have read many old ones that promote axemanship. If you decide to go with axes, I can scan in some pictures of grain in handles, and thinned heads, to explain. Best of luck in finding a good one.. Try ebay and then send pictures to seller to see if the axe is OK. Old is fine if you soak the handle in thinned linseed oil for a long time, and the handle was sound to begin with. The caveat is if the axe has been sharpened on a grinder and temper has been removed.. I've looked at maybe 30 axes in stores here in forest country and haven't seen one new axe I'd buy. The alternative (for a new axe) would be to deal directly with Gransfors (USA), to make sure of getting a good head AND handle. Steel shafted axes such as Estwings defeat the purpose of an axe being a multi tool, because you can't hold the handle in different positions.
Given time I guess I could hunt down some old time loggers or younger guys who do competitions for pictures of technique.

As I've said though - no matter how slowly or seriously you learn to use an axe as a multi tool, you will eventually get a cut and it'll be a bad one because of the tool used! If you just use it as a "chopper", then usually you don't need one because you can make better choices of site and equipment.

Jimbo
 
What a nice post, the best on axes that I've seen so far. Also, I don't feel quite the ax geek that that I did earlier today as I was lightly sanding the handle on my new ax (I've been looking for one for about a year now), noticing that I probably wouldn't have to file the bevel down but will need to stone it, and was thinking of what type of sheath to make for it. I also prefer an oil finish over a varnish or such as it seems to result in fewer blisters.
 
I tend to agree with Greg on this one. I grew up using axes and splitting mauls and love them. For "primitive living" (i.e. long term deep wilderness lifestyle) I would want a full size ax AND a good buck saw. I have a tough time with pondering any "one" tool questions 'cause I am always working to have redundant tools and supplies that I will carry and not leave behind. Sitting in my office in a suit and tie (yuck) I have a 4" CS Voyager, a SAK, a Gerber multi tool, a CS Readyedge, and a ToolLogic credit card companion on or near me. I have read alot of other forum member posts and I think I am not alone in this thought pattern. It becomes a question of weight and ease of carry vs. utility gained. My bugout(car kit) has a folding pocket chainsaw as well as medium and large knives. This combo, I know from using in winter camping, can supply plenty of fire and shelter wood in an efficient manner. I still have my boyhood light ax (on its third handle) and take it on car camping trips, but never backpacking. Too cumbersome!

I remember a story in the news several years ago about an Indian tribe either on the West Coast or in Alaska that had some serious trouble with two teenage tribal males involved in some crimes. The Elders exiled each of them to seperate remote islands for one year periods of time. They helped them build shelters and provided plenty of supplies and tools, but left them alone. Neat idea for self prison. The point is that they had ax, saw, and other tools for this "primitive living" term. Kind of a long ramble but my points are:

1) primitive living is different from shorter term survival living and I would either bring with me or make additional tools beyond light weight survival tools for extended living.

2) tools need to be with you in order to be of use in a survival situation. What you may wish to have with you and what you actually end up having when you need it are usually different. I know myself well enough to understand that my gear has to be small and light enough to always carry or it will get left behind. That is just the way I am.

End of rant.

John
 
Hi guys:

I think that we're reaching some conscensus on this stuff.
For sure with a vehicle carry an axe saw and lots of stuff - especially up here in Canada where conditions can be tough in winter. Weight doesn't matter and if you get stuck you can build a cozy place to stay without resorting to burning the tires off the vehicle.
The point here is that you want to stay close to the vehicle, and conditions may dictate that you build a shelter fast and easily because you are most likely to hit trouble by travelling close to or in the dark or a snowstorm. Here the prize goes to the person with the most stuff to get a shelter and fire built fast and easily.

Meeting a tough situation while out hiking or snowshoeing also demands that you work with what you have. The question here is whether you are going to have an axe or hatchet with you at all times - and whether you have the skill to use it as an all around chopper and large knife.

The number one hatchet fetishist of all time had to have been George Washington Sears who wrote under the name of Nessmuk. He had a double bitted hatchet made at the cost of a weeks wages at the time and carried it everywhere. He thought large knives were stupid because they were often tempered too hard (then)and not versatile. His reason for a double bitted hatchet was that it was light enough to be carried at all times, and he had one very fine edge for cutting/chopping and one thicker edge to split with, quarter animals, and for his way of camping which often involved using hemlock branches which can contain very hard knots where they join the trunk of the tree.

Here's a sample of his writing:
"Let us say that you are out and have slightly missed your way. The coming gloom warns you that night is shutting down. You are no tenderfoot. You know that a place of rest is essential to health and comfort through the long cold November night. you dive down the first little hollow until you reach a rill of water for water is a prime necessity. As you draw your hatchet you take in the whole situation at a glance. The little stream is gurgling downward in a half choked frozen way. There is a half sodden hemlock lying across it. One clip of the hatchet shows that it will peel. There is plenty of smaller timber standing around: long slim poles with a tuft of foliage on top. Five minutes suffice to drop one of these, cut a twelve foot pole from it, sharpen the pole at each end, jam one end into the ground and the other into the rough bark of a scraggy hemlock, and there is your ridge pole. Now go - with your hatchet - for the bushiest and most promising young hemlocks within reach. Drop them and draw them to camp rapidly. Next you need a fire. There are fifty hard resinous limbs sticking up from the prone hemlock: lop off a few of these, and split the largest into match timber; reduce the splinters into shavings, scrape the wet leaves from your prospective fireplace and strike a match on the balloon part of your trousers. If you are a woodsman you will strike but one. Feed the fire slowly at first; it will gain fast. When you have a blaze ten feet high, look at your watch. It is 6:00 PM. You don't want to turn in before ten o'clock and you have four hours to kill before bedtime. Now tackle the old hemlock; take off every dry limb and then peel the bark and bring it to camp. You will find this takes an hour or more.
Next strip every limb from your young hemlocks and shingle them onto your ridge pole. This will make a sort of bear den, very well calculated to give you a comfortable night's rest. The bright fire will soon dry the ground that is to be your bed, and you will have plenty of time to drop another small hemlock and make a bed of browse a foot thick. You do it. Then you make your pillow. Now this pillow is essential to comfort and very simple. It is half a yard of muslin, sewn up as a bag, and filled with moss or hemlock browse. You can empty it and put it into your pocket, where it takes up as much space as a handkerchief. You have other little muslin bags-an' you be wise. One holds a few ounces of good tea; another sugar; another is used to put your loose duffle in: money match safe, pocket knife. You have a pat of butter and a bit of pork, with a liberal slice of brown bread; and before turning in you make a cup of tea, broil a slice of pork, and indulge in lunch.
Ten o'clock comes. The time has not passed tediously. you are warm, dry and well fed.."

I find the writing super, some of the tips good, and some questionable.
Important here - what is his method?
1. He camped near a supply of good fuel because hemlock bark burns hot with little smoke.
2. He dried the ground before building his shelter completely because the fire was built against the large tree to reflect heat into his shelter area. The large fire at first was to dry the ground and to provide light. Hemlock branches are ideal to start, and to dry the bark for use.
3. The shelter was built with steep sides to shed water.
4. Browse - small twigs with leaves make a great bed.

Despite the beautiful writing and good method, what he didn't say is important. A hatchet is pretty well essential to pry off hemlock bark. Try it with knives and you'll be sold on a hatchet because some will peel easily but some won't.(Notice that the peeling test was first but he didn't explain it). If you use a single bladed hatchet or knife to cut hemlock branches from a dead tree, you'll eventually cut too close to the trunk and hit a silicious knot, for which hemlock is famous. Good test for your knife! Use a double bitted hatchet for a while and you'll find that besides being a very versatile tool, it's perhaps the most deadly thing you could have around. You better have good wood in the handle of the hatchet for use as a prying instrument! You peel by chopping with a low angled chopping/prying motion. If the handle breaks head will hit the first stub and come back. Nessmuk and Kephart used very small hatchets perhaps half the head weight of what hatchets are now - and so used them with force. A light hatchet has its shortcomings.

Now if you are going to carry a lot of stuff like Nessmuk, you'd have a survival blanket or light nylon tarp. Build your lean to with that and you won't need to go into the logging enterprise that is necessary to have branches piled thick enough to shed water and cut wind. You'll still need some to hold it down. A knife will suffice to cut the poles, and strip bark for ties. A reflector for the fire is also easily built out of smaller wood. Browse is easy to collect but a larger knife is good for whacking off branches to be stripped at camp since it takes a lot.
Firewood will probably be the lower dead branches of live evergreens. You break those by hand. A pocket chainsaw would be great for the larger ones. It's winter here now so you'd need a shovel to dig out the fallen hemlock trees. For sure there are dead standing ones, but these are very hard to strip bark off.

Hopefully this rambling post will present some ideas on axes and hatchets and under what conditions you need them - if at all. Many people here who did lots of winter camping went very quickly to a small saw. A very small one as lighter and quicker to build leanto's with, not for logging large trees. A saw is much safer to work with when you are cold.
We'll never reach the end of this debate - it's like the large knife small knife debate. Hopefully it'll provide some points for detailed discussion.

Jimbo
 
JIMBO: Do you have any titles of Nessmuk's writings?

Thanks!



------------------
Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com


 
Hi Plainsman

"Woodcraft and Camping" by Nessmuk
$5.95 from Amazon - paperback

It's a beautiful book and very thought provoking. What things were like at the turn of the century. He is most famous for his lightweight canoeing stuff - like his axe, you'd really want to have some skill first!

"Camping and Woodcraft" by Horace Kephart is also awesome despite the age. $13.00. Lots of good stuff for primitive skills, and very well written.

The usual comment by people who have these books is that they would never part with them.

Another book that I really like but have never been able to get my own copy is:
"Now You're Logging" Buz Griffiths. It's an illustrated story "comic book" fashion about life in early logging camps. I'll probably get this from the library and scan it and post it on a webpage to see who comes after me. The artwork and historical information is incredible!

Want me to type in any more excerpts to provoke thought?

Jimbo
 
Thanks Jimbo! The info is greatly appreciated!!
biggrin.gif


------------------
Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com


 
Hi Jimbo,

Outstanding posts and information. I have been very busy the last couple of weeks (great that my back feels better but I got so far behind) and missed a lot of the posts. Trying to catch up. I really enjoyed your input on primitive living and the tools related to it. Thank you so much for showing all sides of this discussion.

BTW... I like axes... and when going into a really harsh environment will carry a light weight one.

Backpacking (and other outdoor activities) and finding yourself in a survival situation is a different scenario than what you'll be in when trying to live a primitive life.

------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
Ice,
Sorry I didn't see your post sooner. There is a Bert and Grace Bussard in town here. As for Crete being small, it is relatively small but it is a great town. Our fire department has the fastest response in the state and it is a volunteer fire dep.Our power plant has it's own diesel powered generators. We have machine shops, a mills, Farmland(the meat packers),and on and on it goes. Sorry i said all that. Small is true, but also very productive.
As for the topic here, There is a wealth of information. The only question i have for myself and you guys is....do we really know how to utilize these great tools? I don't think i know hardly enough to survive really well. I think it is important to remember that we should have good tools but also a wealth of knowledge.
Just some thoughts,
Lukers
 
Hi everyone:

I am still trying to figure what I'd really need an axe or hatchet for. Quite strange considering how long I've carried the things around, and how far I've carried them.
Naturally if you are carrying one you will find lots of uses for it, but as to needing one desperately for short term survival, I'm not sure I can think of many situations. Probably it's because I have lived in this area for 25 years, and while it's rugged, I do know it well.
I think that I could walk out into the bush and given an hour before dark, be quite comfortable with just warm clothing and my pocket knife (Gerber bolt action - not some totally heavy duty knife) or my Leatherman PST - in any weather.

Let's take things to extremes though. I often go up logging roads and might have a fifty mile walk out. I haven't done much canoeing lately but there are places up north where you put in for a fifty mile venture too. Tough if a bad storm comes in with a few feet of snow or a canoe paddle breaks - or worse still your leg.
When I consider the absolute worst that could happen then I see the need for some heavy duty tools.
Besides bringing up some neat old fashioned literature that will while away some winter nights, I do find equipment fascinating.

According to the older books, you need these tools to be ready for anything. A small pocket knife, a thin bladed sheath knife, an axe or hatchet, and a crooked knife.
I bet there are some puzzled people now! Here are some links to pictures and explanation of a crooked knife:
http://www.cancom.net/~themdays/unclewallace.html
http://www.rockisland.com/~kestrel/tools.html
http://www.csi.uottawa.ca/~kavanagh/birchbark/Tools.html

Basically with the crooked knife and an axe you can make anything from a canoe paddle to snowshoes. Heck even the canoe!

The reason I brought this one up is that I was sorting out some books to recommend to Plainsman. An author named Calvin Rustrum wrote some very interesting books on living in the north. He has a lot to say about using the tools, including the crooked knife.
I gave away the last of mine years ago and have been meaning to get or make another for a long time - so obviously I haven't had any great need of one. That's not to say I don't enjoy whittling - but the old cheap Gerber has been "good enough".

Jimbo




 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top