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Primitive living tools: axe, knife, and saw...which first?
- Thread starter Plainsman
- Start date
Having received Mark A. Bakers book on the Longhunters of the Middle Ground (tennesee, Kentucky etc.) of the period prior to the revolutinary war I found that his research into this topic is quite interesting and mirrors what I have leanred on the subject. Now obviously these gentlemen did not have access to the Pocket Chainsaws (of which I myself am so enamored with) or other breakdown saws. The most important tool they owned, after thier rifle, was a tomohawk or belt ax, and then came the longknife (rifleman's knife is a later version of the same type of blade).
These men used thier tools to survive on a continual basis. I have also found a belt ax to be an extremely useful tool. I carry a small ax (copied after an original found at the Fort Meiggs historical site) and it works extremely well for its small size. It is light but has an excellant thin blade profile that allows it to bite deeply and cut quite effiectly. It also has a narrow flat on the back which is useful hammering, cracking nuts and any other number of small tasks. One of the reasons this tool was so important to them is they modeled their behavior somewhat after the native american indian who had been surviving there previous to their arrival, thus they learned to utilize tools as they did.
In my opinion, the tool you will use the best is the tool in which you have been trained and are familiar with. And someone else may, given the same tool, be much less proficient with it and prefer another tool. Therefore one should try various tools and find what works best for themselves.
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Lee
LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
These men used thier tools to survive on a continual basis. I have also found a belt ax to be an extremely useful tool. I carry a small ax (copied after an original found at the Fort Meiggs historical site) and it works extremely well for its small size. It is light but has an excellant thin blade profile that allows it to bite deeply and cut quite effiectly. It also has a narrow flat on the back which is useful hammering, cracking nuts and any other number of small tasks. One of the reasons this tool was so important to them is they modeled their behavior somewhat after the native american indian who had been surviving there previous to their arrival, thus they learned to utilize tools as they did.
In my opinion, the tool you will use the best is the tool in which you have been trained and are familiar with. And someone else may, given the same tool, be much less proficient with it and prefer another tool. Therefore one should try various tools and find what works best for themselves.
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Lee
LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
Michlee,
Well said!
We've always avoided the hand ax in our teaching as it represents an enormous legal liability. The hand ax is such an effective cutting tool that if it is used improperly it can easily remove a finger, hand, slice a shin bone cleanly in half or bury itself in the thigh. The statistics kept by the bean counters break all of that stuff down.
One problem with the hand ax is that a miss on the target frequently translates to a serious injury for the user.
Even up here in the timberland with many trained and experienced timbermen, the hand ax accounts for more injuries than all other tools combined.... This is with guys who used the little axes on a daily basis. Chainsaws are much safer.
I carry a small axe head (as mentioned in an earlier post) but when I use the tool it is with great care. I use my hand ax every day to split wood for the stove. Someday I'll order a uluchet thingie and give that a try. Meanwhile if someone chooses to learn how to use the hand ax.... watch out and keep it sharp!
Ron
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Learn Life Extension at:
http://www.survival.com ]
Well said!
We've always avoided the hand ax in our teaching as it represents an enormous legal liability. The hand ax is such an effective cutting tool that if it is used improperly it can easily remove a finger, hand, slice a shin bone cleanly in half or bury itself in the thigh. The statistics kept by the bean counters break all of that stuff down.
One problem with the hand ax is that a miss on the target frequently translates to a serious injury for the user.
Even up here in the timberland with many trained and experienced timbermen, the hand ax accounts for more injuries than all other tools combined.... This is with guys who used the little axes on a daily basis. Chainsaws are much safer.
I carry a small axe head (as mentioned in an earlier post) but when I use the tool it is with great care. I use my hand ax every day to split wood for the stove. Someday I'll order a uluchet thingie and give that a try. Meanwhile if someone chooses to learn how to use the hand ax.... watch out and keep it sharp!
Ron
------------------
Learn Life Extension at:
http://www.survival.com ]
Hi:
Thanks, John - I found the Rowlands book on amazon. It sounds pretty interesting!
MichLee (Lee?) Could you please post the title to the Baker book? Thanks. I sure like your closing paragraph - the problem is though, that people are unlikely these days to find the proper method of use of tools such as a hatchet.
Ron, I found your post particularly interesting. I can certainly see how liability applies now. Things have sure changed since the old days when boy scout manuals included exact instructions on how to thin a hatchet blade properly! That's just the way things are now, so let's not waste time on that subject.
If you have time, I'd appreciate hearing about your method of using a large knife. I'm thinking of things like stripping hemlock bark for fires as in my posts above. Since I don't own a large knife I'm wondering how a large knife would be less dangerous than a hatchet, or what attributes it might have that a hatchet doesn't.
Jimbo
Thanks, John - I found the Rowlands book on amazon. It sounds pretty interesting!
MichLee (Lee?) Could you please post the title to the Baker book? Thanks. I sure like your closing paragraph - the problem is though, that people are unlikely these days to find the proper method of use of tools such as a hatchet.
Ron, I found your post particularly interesting. I can certainly see how liability applies now. Things have sure changed since the old days when boy scout manuals included exact instructions on how to thin a hatchet blade properly! That's just the way things are now, so let's not waste time on that subject.
If you have time, I'd appreciate hearing about your method of using a large knife. I'm thinking of things like stripping hemlock bark for fires as in my posts above. Since I don't own a large knife I'm wondering how a large knife would be less dangerous than a hatchet, or what attributes it might have that a hatchet doesn't.
Jimbo
Jimbo,
Yes it is Lee.
Thank you. Mark A. Baker writes a column on an almost monthly basis for Muzzleloader magazine, has 4 vidieos on primitive skills of the longhunter, and the title of his excellant book on the subject is titled Sons of a Trackless Forrest. It is available from Baker Trace Publishing PO box 681672 TN. 37068 only, Had to run find my latest muzzleloader for the addy
) If you are interested in the pre-revolutionary longhunters of the middle grounds it is an excellant, well researched book I highly recomeend.
BTW Mark A. Bakerr is the person who taught the lead character who played Hawkeye in the latest Last of the Mohicans how to shoot and use a longrifle. If it sounds as if I am a fan of his, I am
.
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Lee
LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
Yes it is Lee.
BTW Mark A. Bakerr is the person who taught the lead character who played Hawkeye in the latest Last of the Mohicans how to shoot and use a longrifle. If it sounds as if I am a fan of his, I am
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Lee
LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
Thanks, Lee, I'm looking into that book.
I'm a "sort of" muzzleloader - which means that I use my friends' guns while we are at the range. Since I am into pistol and rifle competition (silhouette), which means a lot of guns, reloading equipment, even bullet casting equipment, I'm somewhat hesitant about getting into more. I guess the bottom line is that I don't need to, having access to my friends' - well I share my stuff too, and I've done my share of collecting pure lead and casting for blackpowder!
One project that I've put off too long is loading up some blackpowder rounds for my competition guns to see how accurate I can get.
To get back to the topic at hand, I was thinking how strange it is for Ron and I to be warning people about sharp blades on a bladeforum. I think that safety really applies too with Kochanski's recommendation of one of those oval handled knives. They're great for different hand grips to peel potatoes, cut toenails, whittle things, but you sure have to be careful using one! Again it is the method of use that makes hatchets and those knives dangerous.
Thinking back on Plainsman's first post - I believe the reason that a $15 knife is recommended is its method of use. If you skin a moose or bear a coarse edge is great. Most old timers here use a softer steel knife and a fine file. You then have to put on a finer edge for wood cutting. You'll find that the edge has to be resharpened at least once with a moose, more with bears - but it's only a couple of strokes with the file. Easy to put on a fine edge too. Most whittling is done with green wood which is fire hardened after you have the shape. Fuzzy stick whittling will dull the blade fast as you are working with dry wood from lower dead branches which are often hard - but those blades are very easy and fast to sharpen.
I don't know how the new steels would be for this kind of use - not having any super knives. The only really hard steeled knives I have are old Gerbers with the tool steel blades - about R62. They sure hold an edge, but since sharpening is a real pain even with a diamond stone, they wouldn't suit the above methodology! I think I could say the same for Cold Steel knives that I've sharpened for people. I'm not cutting down (!) on better steels, but you'd want two knives, one for skinning and one for whittling.
Jimbo
I'm a "sort of" muzzleloader - which means that I use my friends' guns while we are at the range. Since I am into pistol and rifle competition (silhouette), which means a lot of guns, reloading equipment, even bullet casting equipment, I'm somewhat hesitant about getting into more. I guess the bottom line is that I don't need to, having access to my friends' - well I share my stuff too, and I've done my share of collecting pure lead and casting for blackpowder!
One project that I've put off too long is loading up some blackpowder rounds for my competition guns to see how accurate I can get.
To get back to the topic at hand, I was thinking how strange it is for Ron and I to be warning people about sharp blades on a bladeforum. I think that safety really applies too with Kochanski's recommendation of one of those oval handled knives. They're great for different hand grips to peel potatoes, cut toenails, whittle things, but you sure have to be careful using one! Again it is the method of use that makes hatchets and those knives dangerous.
Thinking back on Plainsman's first post - I believe the reason that a $15 knife is recommended is its method of use. If you skin a moose or bear a coarse edge is great. Most old timers here use a softer steel knife and a fine file. You then have to put on a finer edge for wood cutting. You'll find that the edge has to be resharpened at least once with a moose, more with bears - but it's only a couple of strokes with the file. Easy to put on a fine edge too. Most whittling is done with green wood which is fire hardened after you have the shape. Fuzzy stick whittling will dull the blade fast as you are working with dry wood from lower dead branches which are often hard - but those blades are very easy and fast to sharpen.
I don't know how the new steels would be for this kind of use - not having any super knives. The only really hard steeled knives I have are old Gerbers with the tool steel blades - about R62. They sure hold an edge, but since sharpening is a real pain even with a diamond stone, they wouldn't suit the above methodology! I think I could say the same for Cold Steel knives that I've sharpened for people. I'm not cutting down (!) on better steels, but you'd want two knives, one for skinning and one for whittling.
Jimbo
Jimbo,
I like my knives extremely sharp, I was borught up in the old , if it is dull its more dangerous school .
, But I do agree you have to match your handle/blade to the task at hand if possible and BE CAREFUL.
As far as getting into muzzleloading, take care, it is ADDICTING, lol. Almost as bad as archery. I am making a new rifle right now, and I already have 3, lol. My rifle I use currently is a pre-revolutionary Kentucky flintlock in .54. My next is going to be a Jaeger in .58 again.
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Lee
LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
I like my knives extremely sharp, I was borught up in the old , if it is dull its more dangerous school .
As far as getting into muzzleloading, take care, it is ADDICTING, lol. Almost as bad as archery. I am making a new rifle right now, and I already have 3, lol. My rifle I use currently is a pre-revolutionary Kentucky flintlock in .54. My next is going to be a Jaeger in .58 again.
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Lee
LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2000
- Messages
- 1,363
The axe/knife aguement comes up quite often.
I'm manic, on the modern time zone of living at a frantic pace. I'm constantly on the move and prefer to travel light and move fast. For me the knife blade is all that I require. I'm never in one spot long enough to exhaust the easy to pick up fuel supply of kindling and fallen logs.
Now if I lived at a slower and more thoughtful pace, and time was of little importance then an axe may well be the better choice.
Here is a survival example:
1) Captain Frantic survives by hicking out of the forests in two weeks of hell. His survival skills were such that with only a knife he was able to support himself in the wilds and to reach safety.
2) Rifleman Oldtimer took a different approach and walked out of the forests after two years. With only his trusty axe he was not only able to survive in the wilds but had also built himself half a dozen holiday letting cabins; which he intends to start a new business with.
Its hard to beat the knife when on the move.
Hard to beat an axe when making a home.
I'm manic, on the modern time zone of living at a frantic pace. I'm constantly on the move and prefer to travel light and move fast. For me the knife blade is all that I require. I'm never in one spot long enough to exhaust the easy to pick up fuel supply of kindling and fallen logs.
Now if I lived at a slower and more thoughtful pace, and time was of little importance then an axe may well be the better choice.
Here is a survival example:
1) Captain Frantic survives by hicking out of the forests in two weeks of hell. His survival skills were such that with only a knife he was able to support himself in the wilds and to reach safety.
2) Rifleman Oldtimer took a different approach and walked out of the forests after two years. With only his trusty axe he was not only able to survive in the wilds but had also built himself half a dozen holiday letting cabins; which he intends to start a new business with.
Its hard to beat the knife when on the move.
Hard to beat an axe when making a home.
Well, as I see it, for survival the knife is the way to go. But axes and hatchets? I really can't see much need for them at all. If you're chopping down trees (ones too big to cut down with a large knife or folding saw) then you're not "surviving", you've "moved to the forest to live".
Actually I think a shovel would be of more use than saws, axes, or hatchets for building a survival shelter.
Actually I think a shovel would be of more use than saws, axes, or hatchets for building a survival shelter.
Clearly the axe is the winner. You can butcher an animal with an axe (it was commonly done in the "old" days") because it is, after all a cutting tool that can be honed to razor sharpness. An axe was often used for skinning animals and fleshing hides. And as old trappers know, an axe can be used to make a small but substantial cabin somewhat quickly to survive the most inclement of weather for an extended period of time, if need be. This all presupposes that you are attempting to survive the northern climate. If we are talking about jungle, a large knife would probably be the preferred tool.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
Have to agree with you folks who choose the ax. I know that when I go out tramping around the bush in the winter, I feel naked without my ax. It's just so much more reassuring to know that I could utilize the ax to it's full potential and complete that tough task (whatever it might be) so much faster than with my belt knife.
Although, I do feel naked without my knife too.......go figure?
Although, I do feel naked without my knife too.......go figure?
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2000
- Messages
- 1,363
Just thought this up and thought it summed up my arguement.
A knife is for those visiting the wilds.
An axe is for those taming the wilds.
A good knife will build a raft to cross a river. A good axe will build a bridge over a river. I like both.
A knife is for those visiting the wilds.
An axe is for those taming the wilds.
A good knife will build a raft to cross a river. A good axe will build a bridge over a river. I like both.
There are places in the world, one or two of which I've flown over, that I would not even begin to count on getting myself out in two weeks.
Axes do some things better than knives, and vice versa. In the end, me personally, I'd prefer to have a small pocketknife and a good axe than a large knife. The again, I'm the one who would prefer a metal match and a pot to a knife.
Stryver
Axes do some things better than knives, and vice versa. In the end, me personally, I'd prefer to have a small pocketknife and a good axe than a large knife. The again, I'm the one who would prefer a metal match and a pot to a knife.
Stryver
For a primitive living situation, no question..., I'd choose a 4-5" fixed blade knife.
It's not that an axe *can't* whittle, skin game, clean a fish, be useful for cooking tasks, etc...., but it's far from efficient. And most axes are a bit.... LARGE..., to have handy at all times.
Native Americans did just fine, with only a small piece of sharpened stone. They used wood that was, at most, wrist sized... and you don't need an axe for that.
Greenjacket said you needed an axe to *tame* the wilderness. I'm not looking to "tame" the wilderness..., that's a self-defeating proposition. Trying to "fit in to nature", work *with* nature, is where you'll find success in primitive living.
It's not that an axe *can't* whittle, skin game, clean a fish, be useful for cooking tasks, etc...., but it's far from efficient. And most axes are a bit.... LARGE..., to have handy at all times.
Native Americans did just fine, with only a small piece of sharpened stone. They used wood that was, at most, wrist sized... and you don't need an axe for that.
Greenjacket said you needed an axe to *tame* the wilderness. I'm not looking to "tame" the wilderness..., that's a self-defeating proposition. Trying to "fit in to nature", work *with* nature, is where you'll find success in primitive living.
Actually, Native Americans built large lodges made from trees and used axes extensively. And they did it a long time ago, long before Europeans came to the new world.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM