Probably asked before cannot find it, tempering 440c steel in home oven.

B

Barryblade

Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
48
Oke after a busy weekend of cutting out the steel, grinding out the shape.
And a complete Saturday just filing the bevel on the knife with a Jig.
Today sanded the knife with 120 grit and made the Micarta handle.
An hour ago I heat treated the knife in my home made forge and cooled it in canola oil.
Now it is in the freezer.
So tomorrow I want to heat treat the steel in my home oven.
But I read so much different ways of tempering 440C steel, that I am lost now.

Please some advise....
I don't have any fancy cooling systems or anything, I am an learning hobbyist.

Thanks and Semper Fi.
Barry.
 
440c takes some very precise temperature control, something I don't think you can achieve with a forge, but at this point two 1 hour cycles at 350 cooling to room temperature in between
 
Thanks, John.
Like I said I am a really big novice in knife making.
I understand your worries about the home made forge, it is just that I don't have the Benjamin Franklins to be a pro.
Maybe in the future I will buy more advanced gear to make knives, but for now I also gotta keep the misses happy and don't spend to much;)
With what grit would you finish 440C steel after tempering.

Things to the side, man... It is awesome to see the forge work, and I do my upmost best to make the knife as perfect as I can.
If I knew how to post pictures ....I would.

Any advise what steel to buy than in combination with a home made forge?
I thought that 440C was good for starting, ...

Thanks again, and more tips & tricks are always welcome.

Semper Fi.
Barry
 
Barryblade said:
Thanks, John.
Like I said I am a really big novice in knife making.
I understand your worries about the home made forge, it is just that I don't have the Benjamin Franklins to be a pro.
Maybe in the future I will buy more advanced gear to make knives, but for now I also gotta keep the misses happy and don't spend to much;)
With what grit would you finish 440C steel after tempering.

Things to the side, man... It is awesome to see the forge work, and I do my upmost best to make the knife as perfect as I can.
If I knew how to post pictures ....I would.

Any advise what steel to buy than in combination with a home made forge?
I thought that 440C was good for starting, ...

Thanks again, and more tips & tricks are always welcome.

Semper Fi.
Barry
Click to expand...

440C
Put it in the mail.
 
The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V33

The answer to a 13 young student is different than a retired machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community by filling your profile with location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment and hobbies so we get a sense of where and who you are.

Look at the threads at the top of the page.

The basics in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
http://www.2shared.com/document/hk4wQruA/Absolute_Cheapskate_Way_to_Sta.html
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3622507/Jones-Scott-Jonesy-Absolute-Cheapskate-Way-to-Start-Making-Knives


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, well organized, available and inexpensive.

Knife Design:
Think thin. Forget swords, saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Look at hundreds of photos

Start with a drawing and post it, we love photos.
French curves, graph paper and an eraser are vital tools.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such.
Use playdough to shape a comfortable handle, good handles are not flat.

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns in a PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - A modern book with colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
This book has a great title, but is NOT gospel. It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench BS
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil.
Use a commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for some steels like 1084.

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat it properly.
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola.

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web.


Videos

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others.

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free.
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too - spend some time searching.

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some are good, some bad, expect to wait months
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels.
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges.


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench and Motor oil.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
The best explanation and classification oil speeds I've seen
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap, and technically correct for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095 but a fast oil like Parks 50 or Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades
If you use water or brine, expect a "tink" and a cracked blade

Don't quench in a plastic pail of oil

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min to 1 hour, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and seal out moisture.
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work with it.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean and no oil including fingerprints.
Use Acetone & Alcohol, or Blasting.
Don't over clamp it A “glue starved joint” is weak when all the adhesive is squeezed out.

Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Just use 1084 instead of a file.
spheroid annealed steel is butter soft to file.

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Examples of filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.metalwebnews.com/manuals/knife-grinder.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder-buy plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy.html


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska steel pulleys are good plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to about 1/2 the price of a KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts using a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with finer control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s are designed to keep your fingers out and the metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $100 for shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper units, but the only VFD I have found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4, sealed from metal dust

Good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings.
If you buy a bargain vfd, you're stuck with a chinglish manual and ridiculous programming.

I like that I can buy it in person from a local distributor in Canada.

Travis W reports running a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't count.

The minimum I would consider are silicone half masks with a P100 Filter
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes get fitted in person

Shave, also test the every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This Google page searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

A shop visit
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V33 March Jan 27, 2014

Countavatar.jpg
 
I think the Count meant to send it out for heat treatment. 440 C is a lot more difficult to HT than 1084.
 
You're putting good work into that knife, so I would recommend putting a good heat treatment into it as well. You're not going to be able to heat treat 440C in a homemade forge. It needs very high temperatures (1850F minimum) without overheating and a long hold at temperature to get all the alloying elements in solution. How do you know if you got it hot enough or if you over-heated it? A heat treating oven is pretty much required to do it. Also, you need scale protection at that high of temperatures for a hold of any length of time or you risk serious pitting and decarb.

We're not trying to bust your balls, but the Count's advice on sending it out for heat treating is spot on. Most stainless steels and several high alloy tool steels really require an oven or a controlled forge. For home heat treating, I'd recommend 1084 as a great carbon steel to start with. It can be heat treated very effectively in a forge due to its lower austenitizing temperature and no real soak at temperature needed. It also makes a great knife.

Like I said, great work on the knife, and I do think it's great that your jumping right in to figure this out. However, heat treating is the most critical part of making a knife besides basic geometry. If you don't get the heat treatment right, you really just have a knife-shaped-object that won't hold up to use. Find some 1080 or 1084 to play around with, and you'll be surprised how well it works. There are lots of threads on how to do heat treatment for these steels, and if you have questions, feel free to ask.

And thank you for your service.

--nathan
 
Last edited:
Before you send this out for heat treat, may I offer some suggestions? The bottom of the tang is uneven and should be smoothed out otherwise it will be uncomfortable to use, and much harder to smooth out when the blade has been hardened. The finger choil also looks uncomfortable. I think you should either make it a more circular radius, or grind it off altogether. For comfort, you could also curve the top of your tang towards the rear. Overall I like the overall design though. Should be a nice functional blade.

Good luck, and welcome to the forums.

Here's what I mean for modifying the blade:



 
Last edited:
Just to state something obvious that you seem to have missed.........You can not HT stainless steel in a forge. It takes a HT oven and heating to 1900-1950°F for 30 minutes to an hour to do it. tempering is 400F for one hour done twice. Also, it is an air hardening steel.

The blade you have may or may be ruined after your attempt to forge harden and oil quench it. I would just start another one and this time read about the steel before attempting to do HT.

For stainless steels, you will need proper equipment or will have to send it out for HT.
 
Nathan & Shane, thank you for your reommodations.
That is what I was Hoping for to get at this forum.
So here is what I am going to do; I won't touch this knife until I have finished my next knife I want
To make.
In the meantime I will try and find some company or someone that can heat treat my first knife
(Which I call the Stamina 2 cause I designed a bigger one and that one is called the Stamina 1).
Or I am going to try and make a oven myself, that is possible right?
Depends on how much that would cost.

The bottom of the tang I will adjust, te finger choil is pretty comfortable,
So I will leave that as it is.
It is not trying to be ignorent at all,..realy it isn't and it take your guys advise realy serious.
And don't worry about busting my balls, that is all the days job anyway,
So like I said all comments,tips & tricks are welcome.

Than I am going to start on my next project "The Roman"
I am realy excited to make that one cause it is completely my own design
( somebody probably already made something similar...but still from nothing
I draw it and made the mould for it)

I will post a picture of the Mould as soon as possible.

Semper Fi.
 
Bladsmith, thanks.

Damn...I hope I didn't ruin this one cause it took me a complete Saturday
Filing it and I hope that I did not do that for nothing.

But like I said in my previous reply, I will see if I can make my own oven.
And if not I will send it for HT...somewhere.
And I will start on my next project.

Thanks for your opinion,
Much appreciated.

Semper Fi.
 
There are lots of places to send out your stainless blades.
This one is likely not worth continuing.

Slow down. You said it took an entire Saturday to make the blade...that is fast. It may take some forks a week to file the bevels ( I may take Tryppr a month or two :) ).
Take your time and post your plans and drawings here in Shop Talk before you cut/file/heat/ etc. the blade...... allowing errors and problems to be fixed before they are permanent or irreparable.
 
Bladsmith, thanks for bursting my bubble....;)
What me took whole Saturday was filing the bevel on the blade, i was already working on it for a week.

But I will show my drawings and moulds here before starting on the real steel.
 
You can definitely make an oven. It will cost $200-$300 or more depending on sourcing of materials, but will end up a heck of a lot cheaper than a store bought oven. I made my own that still works to this day, though I now have an Evenheat I use. Search this forum for some good wiring diagrams and look for the Brittish Blades oven tutorial on the net for ideas.

nathan
 
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