Promoting knives to art collectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Montgomery
What an insightful post.



What does everyone think will be the result of attracting art collectors on the prices of custom knives? As for me, I think that if you attract the people that are willing to pay the big bucks, you will see a definite increase (possibly a major one) in the price of at least the higher end knives. This will be good for secondary market, but could put collecting of these knives totally out of the reach of the average knife collector.

I want knifemakers to be successful, but I guess I am also selfish in that I want my hobby to continue to be something that I can afford to partake in.

Good point, sir. But the sad truth is that most knifemakers need to be able to make money at their craft. With the exception of the stuff from the guys at the top of the pyramid, custom knives are not as proportionally expensive as they were 20 years ago when compared to factory stuff, at least from my limted experience. I don't know if this is because the supply has increased exponetially or that peoples work has just become so much better that the "bottom" of the market is where the "top" used to be, but that is what I see.
__________________
Joe Mandt
St Petersburg, FL
ABS Apprentice Smith and Honorary Eurotrash
www.JMForge.com
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Every year more and more good makers are coming into custom knives. That is a good thing. The problem is that the collector base is not growing as fast in my opinion.

Attracting art lovers to cutom knives is a good idea, just as attracting more hunters and outdoorsmen or any other group.

Jim Treacy
 
There is room for every opinion. Mine happens to equate "knife fashion" as superfluous. Sure, maybe it increases the "sellability", in some cases. So what.

I don't really care if someone can sell more knives, engraving and making it more flashy. Are you thinking the more artsy fartsy is the future.
Design is the art, good designs are more interesting than good art.

Another thought about knife art. Tatoo art, grafitti art, custom cars and bikes. "Pimp my ride"
The genre of knife art, due to being "knife" will always have an association, such as one thinks of gang culture, low on the totem pole. I don't see how you can 1. separate it from weapon art- in the minds of most people. 2. bring artists into it, who care anything about knives.

But, maybe I'm wrong. I still see it as craft art, and important to American heritage. The same way folk culture and art is important. But, not jewelry. Or, if jewelry- then for what purpose? to glorify what?
Impractical ideals. Star Trek? Fantasy.
David
 
Guys, this is one of my pet topics. Some of you may know that I teach at a state run arts college. As part of the 3-D dept. I run and teach a course (for credit!) in Bladesmithing and pattern welded steel. It was an uphill battle at first, but we finally suceeded in making the course popular and well accepted by the college. As well, last year The Mass. Cultural Council awarded me the title of Master Craftsman and Artisan. Attending that honor was a grant and a museum show at the Museum of Our National Heritage in Lex. Ma. Many art collectors have seen that show and it has yielded many new opportunities to promote my work.
I had a talented student start his bladesmithing studies in 2003. He progressed nicely and became very skilled as a bladesmith, so much so that he was allowed to graduate with a BFA in sculpture with his main concentration being Bladesmithing! A first at this college for sure. He was also awarded a prize for his excellent work by the school. For many years now I have worked with the traditionally oriented crafts schools introducing couses in bladesmithing and related studies(pattern welding etc.)These have met with success and have paved the way for others. I truly believe that appreciation of the beauty and wonder of blade art can be promoted through the mainstream venues that already exist. I have found that the key to acceptance from these institutions is solid and beautiful craftsmanship that reflect the full history and heritage of many craft traditions. In short the more studied one is artistically, the easier it becomes to deal with the mainstream art and craft venues.
 
jdsmith02115 said:
Guys, this is one of my pet topics. Some of you may know that I teach at a state run arts college. As part of the 3-D dept. I run and teach a course (for credit!) in Bladesmithing and pattern welded steel. It was an uphill battle at first, but we finally suceeded in making the course popular and well accepted by the college. As well, last year The Mass. Cultural Council awarded me the title of Master Craftsman and Artisan. Attending that honor was a grant and a museum show at the Museum of Our National Heritage in Lex. Ma. Many art collectors have seen that show and it has yielded many new opportunities to promote my work.
I had a talented student start his bladesmithing studies in 2003. He progressed nicely and became very skilled as a bladesmith, so much so that he was allowed to graduate with a BFA in sculpture with his main concentration being Bladesmithing! A first at this college for sure. He was also awarded a prize for his excellent work by the school. For many years now I have worked with the traditionally oriented crafts schools introducing couses in bladesmithing and related studies(pattern welding etc.)These have met with success and have paved the way for others. I truly believe that appreciation of the beauty and wonder of blade art can be promoted through the mainstream venues that already exist. I have found that the key to acceptance from these institutions is solid and beautiful craftsmanship that reflect the full history and heritage of many craft traditions. In short the more studied one is artistically, the easier it becomes to deal with the mainstream art and craft venues.
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That sounds like an awesome program!!!
Great job getting the program at your school :thumbup:

I collect art (acrylic, oil, pencil,graphite, photographs, and some sculptures)
Art SELLING is kinda funky..IMHO
Everyart collector knows what they like and don't like

When I buy art it depends on my mood
The 1st impression is everything
I either love it off the bat or don't like it all

The mood of my wallet also plays a key role ;)

Hasn't it kinda already been established that some knives are more art than function?
I see knifeart.com and artknives.com.......

A maker having art buyers as a target market?
Sure
Why not?
 
2knife said:
There is room for every opinion. Mine happens to equate "knife fashion" as superfluous. Sure, maybe it increases the "sellability", in some cases. So what.

I don't really care if someone can sell more knives, engraving and making it more flashy. Are you thinking the more artsy fartsy is the future.
Design is the art, good designs are more interesting than good art.

Another thought about knife art. Tatoo art, grafitti art, custom cars and bikes. "Pimp my ride"
The genre of knife art, due to being "knife" will always have an association, such as one thinks of gang culture, low on the totem pole. I don't see how you can 1. separate it from weapon art- in the minds of most people. 2. bring artists into it, who care anything about knives.

But, maybe I'm wrong. I still see it as craft art, and important to American heritage. The same way folk culture and art is important. But, not jewelry. Or, if jewelry- then for what purpose? to glorify what?
Impractical ideals. Star Trek? Fantasy.
David
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While some may consider engraving being just more adornment, the engraving of knives has great historical background, going back centuries. I consider the engraving of today's knives an extension of this time honored tradition in presentation knives.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
What an insightful post.



What does everyone think will be the result of attracting art collectors on the prices of custom knives? As for me, I think that if you attract the people that are willing to pay the big bucks, you will see a definite increase (possibly a major one) in the price of at least the higher end knives. This will be good for secondary market, but could put collecting of these knives totally out of the reach of the average knife collector.

I want knifemakers to be successful, but I guess I am also selfish in that I want my hobby to continue to be something that I can afford to partake in.
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There will always be knives available in every price range no matter how popular knives get. Your challenge as an experienced collector such as yourself would be to find the new up and coming maker. It's like scouting players in A ball before they hit the major leagues. Real knife collectors would have the advantage of their years of experience over the "art" collector to find those guys.

I bet it would be fun knowing you could buy these knives KNOWING that your chances of turning for a profit would be great.
 
2knife said:
There is room for every opinion. Mine happens to equate "knife fashion" as superfluous. Sure, maybe it increases the "sellability", in some cases. So what.

I don't really care if someone can sell more knives, engraving and making it more flashy. Are you thinking the more artsy fartsy is the future.
Design is the art, good designs are more interesting than good art.

Another thought about knife art. Tatoo art, grafitti art, custom cars and bikes. "Pimp my ride"
The genre of knife art, due to being "knife" will always have an association, such as one thinks of gang culture, low on the totem pole. I don't see how you can 1. separate it from weapon art- in the minds of most people. 2. bring artists into it, who care anything about knives.

But, maybe I'm wrong. I still see it as craft art, and important to American heritage. The same way folk culture and art is important. But, not jewelry. Or, if jewelry- then for what purpose? to glorify what?
Impractical ideals. Star Trek? Fantasy.
David
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What the craft of bladesmithing "Glorifies" in my opinion is man's creative and artistic genius in elevating something like a simple tool to high aesthetic values. It is using earth, air, fire and water to transform what is provided by nature into spiritual distilations of form and function. The creative energy of the universe itself is channeled by artisans to manifest unique artistic visions.
Glorified, my friend are man's creativity, imagination and perserverance to turn dirt into gold. And if you believe in a Higher Being, That is glorified as well, as all we see and know comes from There.
 
BTW, I no longer attend shows. All of my sales are generated through personal contacts and through Art Galleries here and abroad. Seems to be working nicely.
 
jdsmith02115 said:
What the craft of bladesmithing "Glorifies" in my opinion is man's creative and artistic genius in elevating something like a simple tool to high aesthetic values. It is using earth, air, fire and water to transform what is provided by nature into spiritual distilations of form and function. The creative energy of the universe itself is channeled by artisans to manifest unique artistic visions.
Glorified, my friend are man's creativity, imagination and perserverance to turn dirt into gold. And if you believe in a Higher Being, That is glorified as well, as all we see and know comes from There.
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Spiritual distilations? Maybe, ..kind of gives me a chuckle. Yes, there are profound and amazing accomplishments in knifemaking. IS it about striving to make art? Are you making a better lightbulb or painting Elvis on velvet? Because as spiritual, you must admit there is a lot of cheese in the "art" of knifemaking. Look at the sheaths first. It's fashion.

I like tradition. My own tastes reflect a type of tradition. And i admire creativity. But, "art" for art's sake is just fashion trend, to me. Hence, oink oink. Give me the pig, over the ladies' shoes.
David
 
Fashion with function. Sounds great to me. Bently, Mercedes, Caddilac, Holland and Holland Shotguns, Purdey Rifles, and Leer jets.
 
I didn't think about this- the highly unusual art stuff, which is interesting, on a conceptual level. Mardi Meshejian, Virgil England- really unusual design ideas.
I just lumped "art knives" together- i shouldn't have .

I guess it's about being authentic to your own visions. (..so just ignore my previous ranting)

except to say, more art = more wallhangers. And what does that (normally) accomplish?
David
 
Different knives for different people. Just because I don't care for the creations of certain knifemakers doesn't mean that I don't think there is a place for the knives they make.

As far as I am concerned, the more people that knifemakers have to sell to, the better for the custom knife community as a whole.
 
I think that if knifemakers do start marketing to collectors of art they might find that what we might call "art" knife is not exactly what those folks would want. Lets be honest. A lot of the non-functional art and fantasy knives that you have seen over the years have more in common with Frank Frazetta than they do with Frank Lloyd Wright. In my case, I prefer my wild abstract stuff on canvas. If I had the spare cash, I would buy a Picasso or a Magritte. But as far as "applied' arts go, i want the the things to look like they will perform their intended function. I am a big fan of guitars, but I do not like things like the "harp" guitars from the turn of the 20th century or the various and sundry "cheese logs'. A Flying V or Explorer is about as radical as I get. The comment about Jerry Fisk going to SCI this year is a good one. I talked with Mark Sentz a few years back at the Guild Show and he told me that he usually sold a couple of his fancy folders to the Safari Club guys when he was in Reno for the ABS show. These guys will spend $100,000+ on a shotgun or maybe closer to $200,00 on a double rifle. And the scary part is that a goodly number of those guys will actually hunt with those guns!!!!! So the chance that they will actually use their Fisk, Sentz, etc knife is greater than the typical collector that we might know. Pursuing these new markets will require knifemakers to maybe alter their concept of who their target audience is and what that audience is looking for.
 
jdsmith02115 said:
I had a talented student start his bladesmithing studies in 2003. He progressed nicely and became very skilled as a bladesmith, so much so that he was allowed to graduate with a BFA in sculpture with his main concentration being Bladesmithing! A first at this college for sure. He was also awarded a prize for his excellent work by the school.
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JD -- do you mind giving the name of the maker?

Has he attended or plans to attend any of the Bladesmithing schools related to the ABS? Will he attempt to work his way thru ABS via JS and MS?

Does he have a website with examples of his work and knives for sale?

Perhaps he can be encouraged to come to this forum and perhaps become a member of the CKCA.

sorry to hear you are not attending shows as I'm sure many collectors would love to see your current work.
 
Kevin Jones said:
True Keith, but the other side of the coin is that collections will appreciate in value as well and it will stimulate the secondary market.
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just what we need in this current economy, inflation. what happens when these art collectors, that drove the prices through the stratosphere, decide to pull out of the knife game? then everyone is left losing their ass on the knives we bought at stupid prices because of this "art collector" inflation. i dont know about this idea
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmith02115
I had a talented student start his bladesmithing studies in 2003. He progressed nicely and became very skilled as a bladesmith, so much so that he was allowed to graduate with a BFA in sculpture with his main concentration being Bladesmithing! A first at this college for sure. He was also awarded a prize for his excellent work by the school.

JD -- do you mind giving the name of the maker?
Has he attended or plans to attend any of the Bladesmithing schools related to the ABS? Will he attempt to work his way thru ABS via JS and MS?

Does he have a website with examples of his work and knives for sale?
Perhaps he can be encouraged to come to this forum and perhaps become a member of the CKCA.
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Murray, I think JD was referring to Paul Cooper. Here is a link to Ars Cultri with some info on him and an example of his work.http://www.arscultri.com/en/messer_detail.php?id=349&liste=neu

Marcel
 
Win Heger said:
I've always thought that custom knives fit in well with Wildlife Art and custom guns. I just don't believe the modern art community is ready for this
art form.
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2knife said:
The genre of knife art, due to being "knife" will always have an association, such as one thinks of gang culture, low on the totem pole. I don't see how you can 1. separate it from weapon art- in the minds of most people. 2. bring artists into it, who care anything about knives.
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Good points - Like it or not there is a certain stigma associated with knives (and firearms, no matter how high end they may be) within many peoples' minds that would more than likely preclude them from even considering knives as "Art". I could be wrong about this but I think knives other than artifacts or maybe some period pieces just won't have any appeal for many art collectors.
 
Thanks Marcel, periodically I do look thru that site but the prices just don't relate well to what is available in the US. I did recall this dagger but had forgotten the makers name and the story re JDS. thanks for the link as I enjoyed looking at both the Cooper dagger and other knives on the site.
 
severedthumbs said:
just what we need in this current economy, inflation. what happens when these art collectors, that drove the prices through the stratosphere, decide to pull out of the knife game? then everyone is left losing their ass on the knives we bought at stupid prices because of this "art collector" inflation. i dont know about this idea
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severed, if we could influence art collector's interest in custom knives it would be a progressive movement that would take place over years.

You act as though they would ALL start buying custom knives on a pre-determined date and then ALL sell in the same fashion.
 
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