Purchasing from lesser known makers

My point of view as one of the "new, unestablished" guys is this - I make because it's something I love to do. If I never go full-time, then so be it, I'll continue to make part-time until I'm unable (old, blind, etc.).

If you look at the early knives (2-3rd year making) from many of the established makers, you will see lesser quality than many new makers who are at the same level of experience. The internet and organizations like the ABS and the various guilds have shortened the learning curve significantly for new makers by making the experience of the old guys readily available. This could be a significant reason for the rise in new makers like me. The biggest difficulty for anyone who will buy from new guys isn't the quality of the work, it's trying to find the makers who have more than a passing interest in making (like a guy who golfs for a few years and moves on to something else).

Right now, I make "users" for a local market. While this has the potential of getting blades in lots of hands, the price range of this market means sacrificing materials and embellishment in order to break even - it also means that I cannot ever go full-time without moving to a high production process such as CNC (cutting blanks, rough shaping and milling, etc.) which is cost prohibitive in and of itself. I love the handmade aspect of knifemaking - having complete control from start to finish. Because of this, I am left with 2 choices for the market I want to chase after:
-either I make a limited # of high-end handmades for a collector's market, or
-I move into a production type semi-custom type market like many of the folder and tactical makers are now doing.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the newer guys have very few options without the support of the collector market - they either move into high production or fade away.

Nathan
 
Keith Montgomery said:
You are right, one person can't support them all, but if everyone decided only to support the brighter lights, then what would become of these lesser known makers? If not for the collectors that are willing to take a chance on them, they would never have the chance to become the kind of maker that you are willing to support.
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Exactly right Keith.

There was a time when even a guy like Fisk was a new, unknown and unproven maker. He needed, and I'm sure appreciates, those who were willing to shell out their hard earned dollars for his knives before he was a "sure thing". Not that they were doing him a favor or anything - he offered a quality knife for the money even back in the day.

There's nothing wrong with reserving your knife purhcase dollars for the very top 5 or so makers in any given field. People get to spend their money how they choose and I won't tell anyone what they should do (though I occasionally make suggestions when asked :)) But clearly, if a majority of collectors were to take the view that "it's blue chip or it's not for me", well, the next Fisk might just not have much of a fighting chance.

Roger
 
Interesting question.

If Russ Andrews, JS is a lesser known maker, I have been trying to help out his sales for years! It all boils down to the beauty of the design and the quality of its execution. I am more selective now and tend to watch a new maker's work develop for a couple of years BEFORE I take the plunge and order or buy a knife. A recent case in point is Tommy Gann, JS. Time will tell if he will make it to the next level, he certainly has the ability. I suppose that I have also been "supporting" the work of Nick Wheeler, JS for a few years now and have not been disappointed.
 
ptgdvc said:
Interesting question.

If Russ Andrews, JS is a lesser known maker, I have been trying to help out his sales for years! It all boils down to the beauty of the design and the quality of its execution. I am more selective now and tend to watch a new maker's work develop for a couple of years BEFORE I take the plunge and order or buy a knife. A recent case in point is Tommy Gann, JS. Time will tell if he will make it to the next level, he certainly has the ability. I suppose that I have also been "supporting" the work of Nick Wheeler, JS for a few years now and have not been disappointed.
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Well those three are all Peck Award winners - way to go out on a limb, Peter! :p

Just yankin' your chain.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Well those three are all Peck Award winners - way to go out on a limb, Peter! :p

Just yankin' your chain.

Roger
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LOL! I was going to mention John White, MS, Jason Knight, MS and Dan Farr, JS.;)

Just to be fair, I did buy steel from Gann and Wheeler BEFORE they won the Peck Award.:thumbup:

P
 
Half the fun for me is finding great knives from the lesser known makers.
 
I honestly don't know how well known a maker Russ is. All i know is that I knew nothing of him until someone (maybe Peter) posted some photos on this forum.

My purchases from the lesser known makers are not made with the thought that maybe they will someday be big names, and that my purchase will become a good investment. On the other hand, it is nice to se that WWG has seen something in a maker whose work has been impressing me for the last year or so. Makes me feel like maybe I don't have too bad an eye for the up and comers.
 
I am not a collector but I do have some knives that were made by people I know and respect. I also have some that will probably never be known outside of the county I live in. Some of the knives are traded to them for a knife they "will" make and that is what I do to help them make more knives. When I started, I traded my knives for supplies and equipment to make more knives. Today, I give supplies and equipment to beginners for their knives. I will also show them how to make a good using knife and that means a good heat treat. Some of the knives are extremly rough by most standards. Over the years, some have improved in appearance and quality and the others have decided it wasn't their cup of tea.
That is my way of helping support the custom knife making segment of our society. Maybe it doesn't help a lot but then, they got to start somewhere. :)
They all cause me to remember the person and a part of their history. That is the most enjoyable part of the custom knife world to me.
 
RogerP said:
Exactly right Keith.

There was a time when even a guy like Fisk was a new, unknown and unproven maker. He needed, and I'm sure appreciates, those who were willing to shell out their hard earned dollars for his knives before he was a "sure thing". Not that they were doing him a favor or anything - he offered a quality knife for the money even back in the day.

There's nothing wrong with reserving your knife purchase dollars for the very top 5 or so makers in any given field. People get to spend their money how they choose and I won't tell anyone what they should do (though I occasionally make suggestions when asked :)) But clearly, if a majority of collectors were to take the view that "it's blue chip or it's not for me", well, the next Fisk might just not have much of a fighting chance.

Roger
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Just the opposite Roger IMO, as the new or lessor known makers that will probably not be in the market long term anyway (causal, make knives just when it suits them makers) would be weeded out thus leaving more collector dollars for the dedicated, real up and comers and established makers. The maker's bigger concerns today should be more new makers than new collectors rather than how the serious collector is spending his/her money.

By the way Keith, Roger, how many knives have you purchased form lessor known makers in the last 18 months?
And makers such as Russ Andrews, Rodrigo Sfreddo, Craig Camerer, Tommy Gann, Lin Rhea, Karl Anderson, Nick Wheeler and such are not new or lessor known makers. I bet you have influenced more collectors to buy knives from the makers I mentioned above.
 
Personally, I have nothing against supporting lesser names, but I also find that they are not often a much better bargain than the big names. The "lesser name" makers don't have *much* better prices than the big names. They do have shorter delivery times, but my available $$$ is always limited, so I can always wait, go to one well focused show, and get good stuff from a good name at slightly higher price than from a lesser known maker.

As a collector, my buying pattern is completely different from that of a dealer, who has to maintain inventory and turnover.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Just the opposite Roger IMO, as the new or lessor known makers that will probably not be in the market long term anyway (causal, make knives just when it suits them makers) would be weeded out thus leaving more collector dollars for the dedicated, real up and comers and established makers. The maker's bigger concerns today should be more new makers than new collectors rather than how the serious collector is spending his/her money.

By the way Keith, Roger, how many knives have you purchased form lessor known makers in the last 18 months? And makers such as Russ Andrews, Rodrigo Sfreddo, Craig Camerer, Tommy Gann, Lin Rhea, Karl Anderson, Nick Wheeler and such are not new or lessor known makers. I bet you have influenced more collectors to buy knives from the makers I mentioned above.
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In the last eighteen months I purchased a knife from Adam DesRosiers and ordered on from Phillip Patton. In that same period I purchased a knife from Bruce Bump and ordered from Russ. So it's about 50/50.

I disagree that reserving your purchases for the top makers will in any way help the real up and comers. How can it? Though it may weed out the hobby makers (nothing wrong with them as long as the they are producing good knives), I can see no way that it helps the lesser known dedicated makers. Giving them a pat on the back with complimentary comments is good, but if no one buys their knives, they're toast.

Joss, I have found that lesser known makers have prices much lower than the top guys.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Just the opposite Roger IMO, as the new or lessor known makers that will probably not be in the market long term anyway (causal, make knives just when it suits them makers) would be weeded out thus leaving more collector dollars for the dedicated, real up and comers and established makers. ...
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Well, I could not disagree more. If collectors ONLY spend their dollars on the upper eschelon makers, then you don't have a "weeding out" process (which will happen anyway) you have complete erosion of the maker base. A pat on the back on the forums is good and all, but there's no statement of support quite so genuine as "I bought one of his knives and have ordered another". Also, let's not forget that "collectors" are not the only purchasers of custom knives - there are a good number of people out there that buy them for use and their purchase decisions are not driven by investment potential and market position.

I'll check and get back to you on how many lesser known makers I have purchased from in the last while - but one I will point out - Rodrigo Sfreddo - I purchased a few knives from him back when about the only person on this side of the pond who knew who he was was Fisk. And a few that come to mind that I have bought from when they were definitely less well known than they are now: Mike Ruth, Russ Andrews, Craig Camerer, Nick Wheeler, Sean McIntyre, Sam Butler, John White, Rob Brown, Brett Gatlin, Dan Farr, Jerry Fisk. I have orders with Matt Roberts and Matt Lamey.

I must say that I find it odd that you would call into question my statement that I have always purchased from knifemakers at different levels - my participation on these forums over several years should be proof enough.

A question for you. You say you steer other collectors toward the work of lesser known makers - what is your answer if one of them should have the temerity to ask, "Do you own any of his knives?" Is it "Good heavens, no - much too risky a purchase - I'm waiting to see if he gets weeded out or rises to the top ranks."? Kind of undermines the strength of your recommendation, no?

Joss raises a good point - just because you are purchasing from a newer maker doesn't mean you are getting good value or a great bargain. All the factors that go into value assessment still apply. You can get poor value in a $300 hunter from a new maker and good value in a $3,000 bowie from an established maker. You can also get the reverse.

Roger
 
As my collecting evolves I have found myself less preoccupied by the "name" and more with the "quality". I have seen enough of my fellow collectors habits to know that eventually quality will lead to a "name".

I can find flaws (subjective and objective) in most knives, my quest for perfection continues. I have been dissappointed by well know "names" and delighted by lesser known ones ..... and vice versa.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again ...... focusing too much on the return/investment aspect limits the scope and risk taking, which is not good for the lesser known makers.

Developing an ability to critique and evaluate a knife is the most valuable skill to learn. When enough collectors "agree" on a makers quality the name is then established ..... as a collector it is my ambition to be one of the early identifiers of quality!

Stephen
 
RogerP said:
Well, I could not disagree more. If collectors ONLY spend their dollars on the upper echelon makers, then you don't have a "weeding out" process (which will happen anyway) you have complete erosion of the maker base. A pat on the back on the forums is good and all, but there's no statement of support quite so genuine as "I bought one of his knives and have ordered another". Also, let's not forget that "collectors" are not the only purchasers of custom knives - there are a good number of people out there that buy them for use and their purchase decisions are not driven by investment potential and market position.

We have a huge disconnect here as to who is a lessor known maker. I'm not suggesting that ALL collectors just buy from the upper echelon makers however we should support legitimate makers such as your list (Mike Ruth, Russ Andrews, Craig Camerer, Nick Wheeler, Sean McIntyre, Sam Butler, John White, Brett Gatlin) rather than every new maker that comes along. The point here is that the maker/collector ratio is getting seriously out of control and unless things change ALL makers top to bottom will suffer. STeven Garsson recently estimated in another thread that new makers are entering the market at a rate or 4-6 for every new collector (he's probably not far off). That is a formula for disaster my friend as every collector dollar that goes to the new maker entering less goes to the others.

I'll check and get back to you on how many lesser known makers I have purchased from in the last while - but one I will point out - Rodrigo Sfreddo - I purchased a few knives from him back when about the only person on this side of the pond who knew who he was was Fisk. And a few that come to mind that I have bought from when they were definitely less well known than they are now: Mike Ruth, Russ Andrews, Craig Camerer, Nick Wheeler, Sean McIntyre, Sam Butler, John White, Brett Gatlin, Dan Farr, Jerry Fisk.

As I said above, these guys are definitely not lessor known makers, even 18 months ago.

I must say that I find it odd that you would call into question my statement that I have always purchased from knifemakers at different levels - my participation on these forums over several years should be proof enough.

I wasn't calling into question, just asking for your list so we could tell you and I are even comparing apples to apples, and obviously we are not if you are calling the above lessor known makers.

A question for you. You say you steer other collectors toward the work of lesser known makers - what is your answer if one of them should have the temerity to ask, "Do you own any of his knives?" Is it "Good heavens, no - much too risky a purchase - I'm waiting to see if he gets weeded out or rises to the top ranks."? Kind of undermines the strength of your recommendation, no? You are making assumptions about my collecting strategy in error. As I said in my opening post, I collect knives that give me enjoyment, don't hold it against me because I realize you don't have to lose your ass doing it. Because I collect the makers knives that I do, doesn't mean the makers I recommend are not good choices, just that my collection takes a different focus.

Joss raises a good point - just because you are purchasing from a newer maker doesn't mean you are getting good value or a great bargain. All the factors that go into value assessment still apply. You can get poor value in a $300 hunter from a new maker and good value in a $3,000 bowie from an established maker. You can also get the reverse.

Very true, but don't see what that has to do with what you and I are talking about.

Roger
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++++++++++++++++++++
 
I picked up three of Matt Roberts knives on the secondary market and recently ordered my first directly from him.
Really like his work,love the guard and the blade to guard fit,
choice woods,he uses 1095,W2 and 5160.
He performance tests his blades. :thumbup:

I have an order in with Lin as I dig everything I've seen him do.
We haven't really decided on the guard yet but the blade will be Damascus.

Acquired a spear point S-guard Craig Camerer,his work is VERY good,IMO,
I will try to get an order in with him as well,don't know his backlog!?

Speaking of performance tested/oriented blades,why I don't have one of Matt Lamey's I don't know,missed a couple for sale here but I do plan on acquiring one of Matt's.

Oops!! Almost forgot!
Got a slot with DH III. :D

Doug
 
The point I'm trying to make here (and perhaps not very well) is let's not wait until there's more people behind tables at the Blade Show than in front of them before we start addressing the issue of maker/collector ratio.
It's going to get harder and harder for collectors to support all the makers.
 
Russ Andrews was first published in a custom knife book, back in the 1970's :eek:

Yep Kevin, most of the names mentioned here are not lesser known makers.
 
Kevin, if you read my post you would see that I said that those makers were less well known than they are now at the time I started purchasing their knives. As such they were "lesser known" makers at the time of purchase. You appreciate, I am sure, that the term "lesser" is comparative? In the present context, meaning less well known than established and very well-known makers. Of course Rodrigo Sfreddo is not a "lesser known maker" now. But he was when I first started buying his knives. Follow? Your limitation period of 18 months seems arbitrary - my point remains the same.

Perhaps you could provide a list of some of today's "lesser known makers" for the sake of clarity?

I do not purport to sit in judgment of who is a "legitimate" maker and who is not. Also - I am not trying to tell you how to spend your money. You, on the other hand, are trying to tell me how to spend mine by suggesting that I - and other collectors - are hurting the custom knife market by spending money on lesser known makers (like Mr. Sfreddo of a few years ago). With all respect, this is hogwash.

Roger
 
I have some names of lesser known makers I bought from early on in their careers. Perhaps you recognize some of the names.

All of these guys before they had their JS Stamp

Dan Farr
Reggie Barker
Brett Gatlin
Craig Camerer
Shawn McIntyre
Lin Rhea
Mike Ruth
John White
Brion Tomberlin
Sam Butler
Gordon Graham
Rodrigo Sfreddo

Most of these guys are doing ok :D

Two others who I was buying before most people had heard of them:

Matt Lamey
Terry Primos (Im still hoping he will be back).

I'll go ahead and put Phillip Patton and Pete Crowl on the list as well. Although I met Pete this year at the Blade Show...shortly after he received his JS stamp.

To me there is no challenge in "jumping" on the band wagon after someone is sought after or famous. Then again I am the guy who passed on a Loveless Big Bear for $800 (table price in 1986) and a Bill Moran Rio Grande Bowie (1986) for $800

Right now there are about 25 makers that everyone seems to be chasing. Many of these makers are products of the Internet and make less than 20 knives a year. Almost without exception these are at best short term investments. Right now we are seeing Onions and Boguszewskis coming down in the after market. This is not a reflection on the maker...just the very fluid situation in the after market.

However, I understand Kevin's perspective. He is building his collection with an eye towards investment.

The interesting thing is, that every maker I listed on the Pre-JS list. If you would have bought knives from them when I first became aware of them. You would have made money on every single one if you resold them today...EVERY SINGLE ONE!

Im talking 15 -25% ROI. Perhaps we should revisit the "investment knife thing". :D

WWG
 
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