Purchasing from lesser known makers

One thing that has throughly amazed me since my participation on this forum is how so proud some are of proclaiming they do not buy knives for an INVESTMENT. Why is this?

Don't know that I have seen too many people proclaim with pride that they don't buy for investment. But I have seen it suggested that an over-emphasis on investment sucks the joy out of the forums. A lot of people are passionate about knives, and reducing them to mere investments and defining their worth in purely monetary terms is a major buzz-kill. Not that investment isn't an important factor - it's just not everything to everyone.

Is anyone bothered by the fact that they have lost hundreds, maybe even thousands on their knives?

I don't like to lose money on knives - and generally I don't. But when I do it doesn't particularly bother me. My enjoyment of the craft is not measured by a profit and loss spreadsheet

Is it the sames as say taking up golf and knowing that the enjoyment of the sport or hobby is going to cost you a lot of money?

No idea. As far as I know, no amateur golfers view the expenses assoaciated with the sport as an investment.


Is there anything wrong with buying and collecting the knives that you want and love yet still breaking even or profiting when you sell to upgrade to others?

Nope.

Are there actually collectors that buy knives they don't like just to latter sell for a profit?

Yes. A lot of guys will enter lotteries for exactly that reason.

Are there collectors that buy knives only because there's a certain maker's name on it, even though they may not like the particular knife?

Don't know, but I can't exclude the possibility. People are strange.

Just curious? :confused:

What I have never understood is why some people think "buy what you like" and "buy with investment in mind" are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Roger
 
What I have never understood is why some people think "buy what you like" and "buy with investment in mind" are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Roger

Because tastes can differ SIGNIFICANTLY, and "buying with investment in mind" has a tendency to mean "step up to the plate and fork out some $$$":D

Hard for people who don't have much to begin with to do that....believe me...back in the day...$300.00 was a PILE of cash.;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
One thing that has throughly amazed me since my participation on this forum is how so proud some are of proclaiming they do not buy knives for an INVESTMENT. Why is this?

Not really proud of the fact, it's just the way it is for me.

Is anyone bothered by the fact that they have lost hundreds, maybe even thousands on their knives?

Not really. I would prefer to make money, or at least break even, but c'est la vie.

Is it the sames as say taking up golf and knowing that the enjoyment of the sport or hobby is going to cost you a lot of money?

I don't think of it as costing me a lot of money. It is the enjoyment of my collection that is important to me.

Is there anything wrong with buying and collecting the knives that you want and love yet still breaking even or profiting when you sell to upgrade to others?

Nothing wrong with it at all.

Are there actually collectors that buy knives they don't like just to latter sell for a profit?

You bet there is, but I'm not one of them.

Are there collectors that buy knives only because there's a certain maker's name on it, even though they may not like the particular knife?

Once again, yes, but I'm not one of them.
 
One thing that has throughly amazed me since my participation on this forum is how so proud some are of proclaiming they do not buy knives for an INVESTMENT. Why is this?

I haven't a clue. You will have to ask them.

Is anyone bothered by the fact that they have lost hundreds, maybe even thousands on their knives?

If I did, it would reduce my enjoyment considerably.

Is it the sames as say taking up golf and knowing that the enjoyment of the sport or hobby is going to cost you a lot of money?

Golf is a mental disorder. Your comparison is unfair.

Is there anything wrong with buying and collecting the knives that you want and love yet still breaking even or profiting when you sell to upgrade to others?

No. In fact it is very good.

Are there actually collectors that buy knives they don't like just to latter sell for a profit?

You are with your wife at a tag sale. A recent divorcee is selling her former husband's stuff. A large custom Strider tactical cake slicer, in mint condition, is resting on the table. The tags says $1. What would you do?

Are there collectors that buy knives only because there's a certain maker's name on it, even though they may not like the particular knife?

I am certain of it.

Just curious? :confused:

I hope this reduces your confusion.

P
 
After 23 years involved with custom knives I can tell you with some authority that collectors and investors have mutually exclusive mind sets.

The biggest area of confusion is found among collectors and some investors in that they seem to feel that only making 15 - 20% on a knife is somehow not worth their time.

The next biggest area of confusion is that you have to spend a lot of money to be an investor. Again, there are knives for sale right now for less than $300 that you can make 10 -20% on your money. The problem seems to be that on a $200 knife that you would only make $20 to $40...oh and you get your $200 back.

I bought what I liked for the first two years as a collector. When I went to resell them I lost my ass. At that point my mindset shifted to buying what I like but only if it was a good investment. I was more than happy to make 10% on a knife. The point was I was making money, even if it was only $20 or $30 per knife. After a couple of years I was no longer using "my" money to buy knives.

I realize looking back that this took a plan and a lot of discipline to stick to it.

The homework I was forced to do has lead me to buy knives from some exceptional knife makers that were not household names. I realize that I am the exception to the rule. I can honestly say that I have not lost money on a knife in at least the last 15 years. It is not an accident, it is not luck. It is hard work but any one can do it that is willing to put in the time.

The custom knife bug bit me "HARD" long ago. Ultimately everyone travels their own collecting path. For me the best part is that I got to stop going to work every day in a uniform to a job I hated. And decided to do my "hobby" full time! :D

WWG

Off To Chicago!
 
After 23 years involved with custom knives I can tell you with some authority that collectors and investors have mutually exclusive mind sets.
The biggest area of confusion is found among collectors and some investors in that they seem to feel that only making 15 - 20% on a knife is somehow not worth their time.
WWG

Off To Chicago!

I agree WWG as that was my point as to my questions above.

I don't understand why you can't be both collector and investor.

For me, it's all about the knife first, but then the knife needs to meet certain investment criteria before I buy.

I don't buy knives I'm not crazy about, no matter how go an investment.

Neither my collection nor my investments have suffered from this collecting strategy.
 
I don't understand why you can't be both collector and investor.

You absolutely can be both. BUT you have to collect superior examples, from very good makers, whose stars are either well established or rising in the market place.

You have to do your due diligence, which is called work by some, which poisons their "enjoyment" of collecting. I am blessed in that I actually enjoy meeting makers, examining their work and making judgements based on what I learn. I even enjoy talking with fellow collectors and a few purveyors, even if we disagree about a particular maker or knife.


For me, it's all about the knife first, but then the knife needs to meet certain investment criteria before I buy.

Piece, maker, price. Kohaii 999. Amen.

I don't buy knives I'm not crazy about, no matter how good an investment.

I suppose then that if you saw a few $100 bills on the ground, you might not pick them up because you don't care for Ben Franklin's looks.

Neither my collection nor my investments have suffered from this collecting strategy.

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

I hope this further reduces any remaining confusion.

P
 
Y'know what, all I look at is the enjoyment of the knife. If I'm not happy, I am going to sell it. I have two customs right now that I will be taking a big hit on if they sell at their current prices. They were impulse trades, and while I like them, that is not what I am focusing on right now. A dealer selling customs has to put food on the table. A collector might need to sell a few knives to fund his hobby of buying knives, but if he is between sweat and s**t and needs to sell a knife to make ends meet, he has made some poor choices. If you like something, buy it if you can afford to.
 
"You have to do your due diligence, which is called work by some, which poisons their "enjoyment" of collecting. I am blessed in that I actually enjoy meeting makers, examining their work and making judgements based on what I learn. I even enjoy talking with fellow collectors and a few purveyors, even if we disagree about a particular maker or knife."

I don't consider that to be work or even due dilligence - though it can fairly be described as both, depending on one's perspective. Seeking information about different makers, their knives, their goals and plans to achieve those goals, the development of their skill sets, the prices of their knives in the primary and secondary markets, etc., is all the type of stuff that is an integral part of my enjoyment of the craft independent of the value of that information for investment purposes. That information is of interest to me primarily because of my interest in the craft and in the makers themselves - not because that information can be plugged into a cold calculus to maximize my ROI (though that certainly is a secondary or tertiary consideration).

"Piece, maker, price." - That works for me, too - and has for some time.

The "work" as it is sometimes described does not kill the joy of collecting for me. To my mind, when the investment component becomes the paramount consideration to the near exclusion of all others - THAT is a real joykill. At that point, the focus is investment - not knives.

Let me put it this way - my interest is in knives - of which investment considerations form part of the whole. For some, the main interest is investment - of which knives form part of a diverse portfolio, nothing more. The value of the knife, the enjoyment of the purchase is derived primarily rom the prospect of seeing a return on future sale. Nothing wrong with that approach - but it is certainly not mine.

Custom knives for me always have been and always will be much more about the people and the craft than about the money. For that, I apologize to no-one.

Roger
 
Investor and Collector - different animals or parts of the same beast?

One thing I am pretty sure of - the custom knife market needs both!

Well healed collectors have pumped up many a makers after market prices to the benefit of the investors, and the investors bring money (and sometimes their loses) to the market to keep it growing ..... and the collectors often benefit from this growth on re-sale which they use to expand their collections! Chicken .... egg ...... you get the idea.

Neither is right or wrong, just different sides of the same coin, if you de-face one of those sides the coin is worthess as legal tender!

Got to catch a plane!

Stephen
 
The collecting game can be a bit weird. Myself, my family members and other folks that I know "collect" firearms with the intention of NOT selling them. They are all "users" The only time that one goes out the door is if we have one that really just doesn't work for us. One like that will get sold, given to someone else or traded (at a "loss" of course) for something that does work. A perfect example of that is my early production Walther P99. At last count, we own 5 PPK variants and a P5 and love them. The P99 was a clunky POS compared to them, so out the door it went. None of the guns are "safe queens" including some VERY old family heirlooms. They may not be carried regularly, but they are fire on occasion. I am not dead certain about this, but i suspect that many of the folks who drop upwards of $100k on a new Purdey shotgun do hunt birds with them at least once. Otherwise, what is the point of having the thing fit specifically to your body? Makes it a bit useless for the next guy unless it is your identical twin:D Has knife collecting gotten to the point where it is like coin or stamp collecting?
As for the previous comment about not buying a user that has a nice hand rubbed fisnihs, that would be one advantage of buyig form a new maker. You can get some premium features at Wal Mart prices whilst said maker is riding the "learning curve" and can't charge truly premium prices. The couple of knives that I have sold at very cheap prices had 1000+ grit hand rubbed finishes, And even as I get better, that pricing will not be a whole lot higher for a good while.
 
You are right Peter, both the maker and the due diligence is important if you are to buy knives that will appreciate in value.

That's why my philosophy is slightly different from you, Roger and STeven's in that for me it's "maker followed closely by piece and then price".

And I agree with WWG in that there are good investments in the $300; $700 and $1000+ price ranges of knives.
You don't necessarily have to buy expensive knives to make money, just the right knives, from the right makers.

We were talking about knives Peter, now in regard to good old US Currency, I will pick up Ben Franklins all day rather I like his looks or not. ;):D
 
Investor and Collector - different animals or parts of the same beast?

One thing I am pretty sure of - the custom knife market needs both!

Well healed collectors have pumped up many a makers after market prices to the benefit of the investors, and the investors bring money (and sometimes their loses) to the market to keep it growing ..... and the collectors often benefit from this growth on re-sale which they use to expand their collections! Chicken .... egg ...... you get the idea.

Neither is right or wrong, just different sides of the same coin, if you de-face one of those sides the coin is worthess as legal tender!

Got to catch a plane!

Stephen

Good points Stephen.

I think definitely part of the same beast.

Does anyone know a "knife investor" or think there are actually "knife investors"? Meaning individuals that have no interest in knives what so ever other than buying them for chance of profit?
I don't think so, as there's too many other things you can invest in that offer higher returns at less risk.

I believe we are all collectors who love knives but just have varying degrees of financial interest in them.
 
I would like to thank you all for the various opinions about purchasing knives from the lesser known makers. From my view, it seems that the good part is all the collectors enjoy knives. To be collectable, it has to meet certain criteria and that is determined by the buyer. Most of the commments have been made by collectors that buy higher end knives, one of a kind, and special order knives.
From my end of the scale, I make very few "collectable" type knives. I do enjoy the making of them and at times it is extremly disheartening. Maybe that is why I don't make very many. :)
Most of my knives are in the $200.00 to $500.00 range and a lot of the buyers of them, won't use them. You could say that they are collectors of knives that they like and that someday "may" be worth a lot more. I try to stay current and be visible as they like to see the "maker of my knife" in print or another knife that may be featured in a magazine. It also gives me a lot of enjoyment to be able to furnish them a bit of ink occassionally.
I don't aspire to be great in the sense of the big name makers are, but to continue to build a solid reputation for my knives and their use.
Thanks to all of you for posting your thoughts and I know that you will continue to enjoy the "hobby, business, or support" for a long time.
Ray Kirk
 
I would like to thank you all for the various opinions about purchasing knives from the lesser known makers. From my view, it seems that the good part is all the collectors enjoy knives. To be collectable, it has to meet certain criteria and that is determined by the buyer. Most of the commments have been made by collectors that buy higher end knives, one of a kind, and special order knives.
From my end of the scale, I make very few "collectable" type knives. I do enjoy the making of them and at times it is extremly disheartening. Maybe that is why I don't make very many. :)
Most of my knives are in the $200.00 to $500.00 range and a lot of the buyers of them, won't use them. You could say that they are collectors of knives that they like and that someday "may" be worth a lot more. I try to stay current and be visible as they like to see the "maker of my knife" in print or another knife that may be featured in a magazine. It also gives me a lot of enjoyment to be able to furnish them a bit of ink occassionally.
I don't aspire to be great in the sense of the big name makers are, but to continue to build a solid reputation for my knives and their use.
Thanks to all of you for posting your thoughts and I know that you will continue to enjoy the "hobby, business, or support" for a long time.
Ray Kirk
RAY...You're not a "lesser known maker" around these parts. You just choose to price your knives so that a lot of people can afford them. "Lesser know makers" don't have a mob crowding around their table at Batson's trying to find out how they grind integrals....lol
:D
 
Thanks, Joe.
But it is all relative as to what or how many people are aware that you make knives. Then, of that number, how many know you make good knives.
In my area, I am "real close" to the group that has no idea of what a hand made knife can do or the amount of work that went into it. I am trying to change that by going places that has a lot foot traffic of "under exposed" people and answering their questions. My wife was a nervous wreck after this week end of "don't touch that young un". The parents were almost as unaware that knives really are sharp. Next year I will put a sign on my table "Self Service, Shaves $5.00, Blood letting $20.00 (includes bandaid)".
It was almost that bad. I did sell a few knives and other objects of interest and had a great time talking to those that were interested.
I guess what I am trying to say is that of all the people that asked me if I knew "their knifemaker", there was only a couple that I knew. I also felt ignorant about not knowing them as knifemakers. To these people, they felt I should have known their maker. Since he had been making knives for so long in that area. It is relative to the person buying the knife or knives.
Most of the collectors here have people that they buy knives from and are looking for similar quality in the unknown makers. They also know who will probably buy the knife from them at some point in time. This is the "homework" that will keep it from being a losing proposition.
Joe, you just happen to travel to some of the same places I do. :) Looking forward to the 20th year one next April. I will be there and it is a "freebee".
 
Ray, thanks. Good post.

To get to something brought up repeatedly in this thread. Investing in knives.

See to me investing may mean something else. Marketability is going to be high on my list. I'll give you an example in the gun world. I bought an HK USP 45 Cal a few years back. It was right after it came out. Maybe you know it maybe you don't but my point is this was a terrific pistol, huge, silencer with the threaded barrel and quite expensive for me to get. When I went to sell it I had that thing forever. Oh everyone wanted it don't get me wrong. But no one wanted to pay. So, what good is it as an investment? See where I'm going yet? The price of the thing limited my market to only those in that same bracket.

To me good knives to collect are Spyderco and Emersons and some of the older discontinued BenchMades among others. These can still be bought in good shape, and if you have them from when new you have highly marketable items, profit items even, and something just as good as cash.

Thats investment collecting to me.

STR
 
STR
The main theme is that what are the thoughts on buying from lessor known makers, for support or investment.
I know that there are a lot of collectors that collect certain brands or styles from companies that produce a lot of knives, of which some are short runs and they become more sought after.
What some of the collectors are discussing is that "would you buy from a newbie just to help him stay in business long enough to become a well known"?
For me, "IF" I were collecting, I would also want to know if the maker is going to be in business very long, how many does he make a year, is it sole authorship, is it priced right (can I afford it), and do I really like it. These are almost all the same criteria that others have for collecting.
The old factory knives that I have, all have sentimental value and belonged to a good friend or relative. Some are worth a lot and some you would have to throw out the window at a high rate of speed to keep it from coming back. They are tokens with good memories. The knives that I have that have been made by my friends, also have good memories. My collection is full of keepers. What ever they bring in a sale after I am gone, will be more than they would have had if I had been one to take a lot of pictures of places I have been, photos are hard to sell. :)
Anyway, just thought I would try to get this back on track some.
 
Yeah, I just threw that out there. I find it hard to invest in makers unless you can predict the future was the point but maybe not made very well.

You can't say who will make it and who will not really. If we knew that folks would have been buying early from Emerson and Onion and others in greater numbers was what I was trying to say, and because they were affordable then. Buy low sell high kind of thing. When I hear investment I think growth and value for resale.

Collecting to collect is probably what most actually do. Pack ratting vs investment.

Anyway, its a point well taken Ray and perhaps throwing out the productions confuses some. Its just to make a point though. Thanks

STR
 
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