Quality Forge Build Or Buy.... How Would You Do It?

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

BFlying you get big points for ingenuity and froogleness lol. The duct tape and amazon box really take it over the top :thumbup:

Dan you may find this thread useful if you haven't seen it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Burner-Plans-and-info?p=14536251#post14536251

Its a write up Stacy did helping another member build a forge. Lots of good info and if I build one its something I plan to reference heavily.

That said I have so many shop tasks to complete I'm on the fence as to building or buying one also. I know Atlas makes a nice forge that is reasonably priced and he also posts here regularly.

I'm interested in the responses you'll get.

Thanks, that build looks great! I think I could pull that off without blowing anything up... Much appreciated!

I initially bought most of the parts to build a forge but the time to shop all the parts and the how-to's were taking too long. I wanted to get started already. So I bought one. I build lots of things I need but the forge was one of the things that was quicker just to buy it. I got it from this guy:

http://majesticforge.com/knifemaker_forges_products.html

I really like those and the lining really looks good. Do you like the way the burners work? I found myself wanting to buy one of the larger ones.

I started with an Ellis 6", but wanted a larger and blown. The link Augus provided was Stacey helping me. As easy as it was to build, I wouldnt buy one if you have the ability to build one.

Thanks for the second on that! I'm going to look further.

If you build one, you can make it as you wish. For the same money, a build forge will be far better than a bought forge. A PID controlled forge has to be built, as I know of none available pre-made.

Good point on making it better for the same price, I want something really solid.

Thanks Stacy! Your posts literally walked me through making my first knife and I really appreciate your huge contribution here.

I had never seen or used a venturi forge when I purchased my first one and had never used a blown forge before I purchased mine. Having now seen and understand how they work I would not consider buying one in the future. I can make it cheap, fast and completely functional. That being said if you are in the same boat as I was, purchasing a decent forge is not a bad investment. If you already understand how they work and have checked out a few, just build one.

Thanks! I'm debating that right now as it takes time to learn how to make a forge... I'm still pretty clueless at the moment but this thread has helped me immensely.

Just make your own, it's super easy. Just follow Stacy's inductions and you'll have no problems! I've been slowly gathering parts to make a blown forge. I built a venturi burner and it works, but there's not much way to regulate how it heats things. It kinda just wants to be at one temp. Blown burners are way more versatile!

That is good to know especially about the versatility part. More to look up and that is a good thing, much thanks!

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

I would definitely build one. I built my forge, burners and all, and it only took me a few hours. If I could weld, it would have gone a lot quicker than that, and would look a lot less "homemade." For the body, I used a brand new air tank from Autozone (about $40 IIRC) b/c it already had legs welded on and a handle on top. I just cut the ends off w/ my angle grinder using a cutoff wheel and smoothed the edges using a flap wheel.

If I had it to do over again, the only thing I would have bought is the venturi burner kit from hightemptools for $45. It's embarrassing to admit, but I spent two or three times that amount in random pipe/LP fittings and several trips to the hardware store trying to get my burner to work just how I wanted. There's so much info online, and so many different versions, and I kept changing and tweaking my design with different pieces and configurations, but in the end I wound up with something essentially the same as what's sold in that kit.

Here's the one I built:

Not the prettiest but she gets the job done!

-Mike

That looks great! Nice work and sounds like something I can pull off. Good idea on the kit, I live in a pricey area and it might be cheaper to buy a new burner than the fittings. Thanks!

I built mine with a blown burner and by following Stacy's advise it works great. I don't think I could of bought one that functions as well as mine does. I've been gathering parts and will soon have it PID controlled which I feel will make it the ultimate forge.

Thanks NC Biker, that build is looking better and better!

There's no one single forge that'll do it all.


If you get serious about forge work, damascus, etc, you'll end up with multiple forges.


I've got one blown vertical, a large ribbon burner forge, and a 2 brick forge with a t-rex style venturi burner.


If you just want to forge knives initially, I recommend buying or building a 2 brick forge. They're a great size for making small to medium sized knives and even larger knives, are very fuel efficient and with a good stand, take very little space. Buy a burner if you don't feel like building one. You can build the body and forge in a couple hours and just put the burner in.


You can't really forge weld in these though because the body is soft firebrick (and will get eaten by flux, and they don't operate as well at welding temps generally). You wouldn't really want to however. If you decide to get into forge welding/damscus/etc, you'll eventually want to build a vertical blown forge. They're easy to build and much cheaper to build than people are selling them for. They pretty much suck for hand forging blades though, since you can't "lay down" the blade in the forge you've always got to be using a bar of steel and forging the end, or attaching a handle of some type, which is always getting really really hot.


Personally I prefer to forge blades in a coke/coal (or better yet, charcoal) forge. They're cheap to run, and you can dampen them down and leave them running all day without wasting a lot of money on fuel, but they're a bit of a bigger investment in either space or effort in most cases. Although if you can find a good hand crank blower, a Tim Lively style charcoal forge is cheap to build and works really well. I started with one of these and still miss running it.

Thanks Javand, that gives me a lot of good options. I might just order a burner today and build a 2 brick forge.

i have been looking for a hand crank forge here, I have actually seen a few for sale here and just couldn't snag them at the time. My old neighbor had one and that is one of the things that got me interested in making knives. I know of a few local sources of coal and live in a pine forest. One big goal has been to process my own charcoal and get a large forge going of that sort...

Much appreciated!

Vertical is what I use for damascus. Built a large Don Fogg style blown vertical about 15 years ago, easy to build & works great. Would not want any different.

I use a NC Forge whisper mama for general forging. Would not want any different here either.

Don,I might smarten up and just do whatever you recommend across the board! I really appreciate the approach you take.

The Whisper Mama looks serious! I'm a bit confused though, how does the side door work... or is it on the side?

Thanks! I really appreciate the help and that forge looks great.

Don, your post reminded me of a bookmark I had and after doing some google-fu I found it again (clearly I have too many bookmarks, doh!).

Dan here is a web archive of a how to from Don Fogg's now defunct website.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060512154422/http://www.dfoggknives.com/forge.htm

Here is another really useful link to a thread here on BF with many links from the Count.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/706698-Forge-Burner-plans-Need-some

-Clint

Thanks Clint! I think I need two forges now! The Don Fogg build looks good. Big thanks!

Years ago I built one forge after another. Finally got tiered of that, I called Tim Zowada and bought his forge kit and glad I did and I would buy it again If needed.

http://www.tzknives.com/#!gas-forge-system-/c6xq

And the forced air manifold, I can run this forge at 1 1/2lbs gas pressure and weld.

http://www.tzknives.com/#!gas-manafold/c1fz3

I like it, that looks like a high powered machine! Thanks for the link. :thumbup: :thumbup:





Thanks again everyone! I started this thread as more of a resource to help me buy one but you guys have me wanting to go forge something right now!

 

[Lycosa]

Dibs on the 1st forged Fairly.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Don,I might smarten up and just do whatever you recommend across the board! I really appreciate the approach you take.

The Whisper Mama looks serious! I'm a bit confused though, how does the side door work... or is it on the side?

Thanks! I really appreciate the help and that forge looks great.

The whisper mama has ports on each end for blade work, can pass all the way through if need be. The big door is on the side and stays closed. I rarely use it, but have a few times when I needed to forge something that wouldn't fit through the smaller ports.

Might not be the smartest thing to take all my recommendations?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I use a Whisper Lowboy all the time. It works great. The point is that you can build a forge just as good or better for $100.

 

[Don Hanson III]

I use a Whisper Lowboy all the time. It works great. The point is that you can build a forge just as good or better for $100.

Stacy, your post joggled my brain. I have a whisper Lowboy, not the Mama model.

 

[Nomercymunro]

I made a good one out of a grill propane tank and a single Venturi burner. 2 one inch layers of kaowol. Kaowol ridgidizer. Then several layers of satanite. Finally a nice cover of itc100. The thing roars and gets up to welding temp nicely and has made some good hamons. I think it's fun doing the build and learning how the simple burner works. I likely spent more than I had to, as I made a few mistakes initially on the burner build.. I'm sure you can make a great forge. It's all in the insulation build in my little experience. And the burner to volume ratio. Also don't make too huge or a front window as you will likely use bricks to shield it up

 

[Nomercymunro]

Oops that wasn't exactly English..darn iPads


I fixed it - Stacy

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

I use a Whisper Lowboy all the time. It works great. The point is that you can build a forge just as good or better for $100.

I'm leaning towards a build or partial build. Will a blown burner like the one you mentioned (or at HTT) be more efficient than a t-rex style venturi?

Stacy, your post joggled my brain. I have a whisper Lowboy, not the Mama model.

Thanks again Don, sounds good on the door. :thumbup: :thumbup:

I made a good one out of a grill propane tank and a single Venturi burner. 2 one inch layers of kaowol. Kaowol ridgidizer. Then several layers of satanite. Finally a nice cover of itc100. The thing roars and gets up to welding temp nicely and has made some good hamons. I think it's fun doing the build and learning how the simple burner works. I likely spent more than I had to, as I made a few mistakes initially on the burner build.. I'm sure you can make a great forge. It's all in the insulation build in my little experience. And the burner to volume ratio. Also don't make too huge or a front window as you will likely use bricks to shield it up

Thanks Nomercymunro! That sounds like what I might do... I need to research coatings more now.

 

[javand]

I'm leaning towards a build or partial build. Will a blown burner like the one you mentioned (or at HTT) be more efficient than a t-rex style venturi?

Daniel I don't think it's gets much more efficient or simple in a small blade forge than a trex. I'm not a huge fan of venturis but for this application it's the best choice.


With a large welding or heat treating forge you want really even heat provided by a blown burner, but for hand forging, spot heat is actually a boon. You can heat evenly buy moving the blade in and out of the hot spot, or get specific heat (which controls how the surrounding areas of where you're hammering move), in one spot.

It also doesn't require a blower or electricity at all, and they run well off small BBQ style propane tanks.


Multiple burners give multiple hot spots and are less fuel efficient, require more complicated plumbing, etc, and in most cases, don't give any advantage to forging reasonably sized blades.



There is no such thing as a forge that's ideal for every application. You can either have a forge that's incredibly good at one thing, or half-ass at everything. YMMV, but numerous man hours and money have been spent over the centuries trying to disprove this simple fact, there are always trade-offs.

 

[Augus7us]

Is there a good online source for forge parts, like the valves and pipe? There is a local pipe store here but they are ridiculously overpriced. I bought a few lengths of pipe and fittings for my coal forge and it cost 100$!

On a Fogg style vertical forge how difficult is it to retro fit a Pid/thermocouple/SSR? Do you guys even feel they are necessary for damascus forging?

 

[NC Biker]

Is there a good online source for forge parts, like the valves and pipe? There is a local pipe store here but they are ridiculously overpriced. I bought a few lengths of pipe and fittings for my coal forge and it cost 100$!

On a Fogg style vertical forge how difficult is it to retro fit a Pid/thermocouple/SSR? Do you guys even feel they are necessary for damascus forging?

These guys sell everything needed for forge building.

 

[javand]

Is there a good online source for forge parts, like the valves and pipe? There is a local pipe store here but they are ridiculously overpriced. I bought a few lengths of pipe and fittings for my coal forge and it cost 100$!

On a Fogg style vertical forge how difficult is it to retro fit a Pid/thermocouple/SSR? Do you guys even feel they are necessary for damascus forging?

Find a local industrial supplier of Black Iron Pipe, they'll be much much cheaper and carry various nipples in the larger diameter stuff that you need for a blown burner. Me personally though I just weld my forge plumbing from steel round tubing drops that are always in abundance at the local scrap yard. 2-3" stuff is pretty common there.


It's pretty easy to drill a hole in the wall thru the liner and coating and put a ceramic sheath for a thermocouple, just patch around it with whatever refractory you have on hand. Make sure you orient it near where your billet rests in the forge, in the side where you wont smack it, those ceramic sheaths are fragile. Definitely don't put it in the bottom or you wont get a remotely accurate reading.


I personally use a thermocouple and a pyrometer, but I don't/won't bother with PID control. With a needle valve on your gas input and a gate valve in front of your blower (ideally you need a gate valve, not just the damper on the blower) and a sufficiently high pressure blower than can supply high pressure air even heavily dampened, you should be able to nail and hold any temp you want manually.

IMHO when dealing with gas a PID is unnecessarily complicated and may be counterproductive. You have to get into all sorts of crazy plumbing, and it tends to preclude being able to maintain a stable reducing forge atmosphere, and maintain efficiency, since you've got to have some burner or fuel source constantly being toggled by the PID, which means the atmosphere is changing each time.

Not saying it can't be done, but I haven't seen it done in a way I thought was productive, and personally I don't get the point. Not for a welding forge.

 

[JCaswell]

Buying your first forge is not a bad idea. Being new to it, you probably don't know what features you "want", and unless your time is free, it's probably cheaper just to buy one turn-key.
I bought my first, and have since built several gas-fired items (forges, salt pots, etc.). They evolved with each iteration as I leaned more of my specific needs through use.

Here is the longest-lived forge configurationin my shop, built about 14 years ago. The burners are off an old Mankel and put to this top which is solid cast refractory cement (no ceramic fiber). The bottom is also solid cast refractory. The firebrick (walls) allow a huge range of possible configuration suitable for odd-ball shapes, sword-length, knives, you name it. There are telescoping handle-rests on both sides for obvious reasons. It's Natural Gas-fired.

People don't listen to me on this, but I'll say it again: Move away from Ceramic fiber if/when you can. I still have CF in a few salt pots, but not in a forge where it's constantly subject to abuse. The stuff is a "probable human carcinogen", and should be treated with care. When you fire it and bump it, it goes in the air and you breathe it.

Another very important consideration about the undesirability of CF in a forge (for more advanced forge work, at least) is that it offers almost no thermal mass. It just reflects heat. Having a store of heat in the mass surrounding your piece is very helpful when you get into delicate work, especially tricky pattern welding. Well "soaked", you can turn the forge down from "blast-furnace" to a very gentle atmosphere and still maintain your welding heat. It may be an imperfect analogy, but thermal mass acts like a flywheel that, once spinning, is not so hard to keep going. A CF forge requires a higher level of continuous combustion to maintain welding heat, and will usually loose welding temp very quickly if the fire is turned down. That fervent blast is a rough atmosphere that will make it harder to get good results.

 

[JCaswell]

... how difficult is it to retro fit a Pid/thermocouple/SSR? Do you guys even feel they are necessary for damascus forging?

Not necessary at all on a forge.
A salt pot, yes. Absolutely!

I know some guys use temp controllers and pyrometers on their forges and like it. That's great. More power to them.

I can't imagine a use for a pyrometer on a forge. It's like having a pyrometer on your oxy/acet. torch.
What matters is the material's (work piece) condition. It's temperature all the way through.
So you know your forge is at X degrees .... You still need to know what your material looks like when it is ready to be worked, being shaping or welded. Judging the material's condition is usually learned really fast. Like when welding with a torch. It's not hard.
Judging the condition of your forge is even easier, and you make adjustments based on what you're seeing from your material.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Daniel I don't think it's gets much more efficient or simple in a small blade forge than a trex. I'm not a huge fan of venturis but for this application it's the best choice.


With a large welding or heat treating forge you want really even heat provided by a blown burner, but for hand forging, spot heat is actually a boon. You can heat evenly buy moving the blade in and out of the hot spot, or get specific heat (which controls how the surrounding areas of where you're hammering move), in one spot.

It also doesn't require a blower or electricity at all, and they run well off small BBQ style propane tanks.


Multiple burners give multiple hot spots and are less fuel efficient, require more complicated plumbing, etc, and in most cases, don't give any advantage to forging reasonably sized blades.



There is no such thing as a forge that's ideal for every application. You can either have a forge that's incredibly good at one thing, or half-ass at everything. YMMV, but numerous man hours and money have been spent over the centuries trying to disprove this simple fact, there are always trade-offs.

Thanks again Javand, I really appreciate the help. I can tell I'll have about 3 forges going soon!

I'm going to use mine for hand forging so that sounds good. I want a minimalist setup that I can move without too much work so the t-rex might be ideal for my use.

Buying your first forge is not a bad idea. Being new to it, you probably don't know what features you "want", and unless your time is free, it's probably cheaper just to buy one turn-key.
I bought my first, and have since built several gas-fired items (forges, salt pots, etc.). They evolved with each iteration as I leaned more of my specific needs through use.

Here is the longest-lived forge configurationin my shop, built about 14 years ago. The burners are off an old Mankel and put to this top which is solid cast refractory cement (no ceramic fiber). The bottom is also solid cast refractory. The firebrick (walls) allow a huge range of possible configuration suitable for odd-ball shapes, sword-length, knives, you name it. There are telescoping handle-rests on both sides for obvious reasons. It's Natural Gas-fired.

People don't listen to me on this, but I'll say it again: Move away from Ceramic fiber if/when you can. I still have CF in a few salt pots, but not in a forge where it's constantly subject to abuse. The stuff is a "probable human carcinogen", and should be treated with care. When you fire it and bump it, it goes in the air and you breathe it.

Another very important consideration about the undesirability of CF in a forge (for more advanced forge work, at least) is that it offers almost no thermal mass. It just reflects heat. Having a store of heat in the mass surrounding your piece is very helpful when you get into delicate work, especially tricky pattern welding. Well "soaked", you can turn the forge down from "blast-furnace" to a very gentle atmosphere and still maintain your welding heat. It may be an imperfect analogy, but thermal mass acts like a flywheel that, once spinning, is not so hard to keep going. A CF forge requires a higher level of continuous combustion to maintain welding heat, and will usually loose welding temp very quickly if the fire is turned down. That fervent blast is a rough atmosphere that will make it harder to get good results.

View attachment 527668

Thanks for your help, I am a big fan of your work!

Very good point on safety, my wife was using CF blanket to anneal beads and it scared the heck out of me... we got a kiln quickly.

Thanks for posting the forge pic, that gets me thinking out of the box a bit. I like the versatility for large blades and the long term safety factor also.

Making something I have never experienced is a daunting task. I was thinking of a hamburger I had long ago in the Yucatan, it had the patty, veggies, condiments, bun... but these guys needed to check one out over here.


I told myself I was going to make a fast decision but this is just too fun researching. Thanks again everyone!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

If you haven't read the sticky on forges and such;
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/782574-PID-CONTROL-FORGE-Salt-Pots-and-more

Post #6 & #7 are especially useful.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

Daniel, if you'll wait until next week, I'll send you a burner for testing at altitude. I'm curious about how well a venturi works at 7500 feet ASL. It's not as fancy as a t-rex, but it's been a pretty bullet proof design.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

If you haven't read the sticky on forges and such;
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/782574-PID-CONTROL-FORGE-Salt-Pots-and-more

Post #6 & #7 are especially useful.

I have but now that I am going over them again they are making some real sense. Thanks again Stacy!

Daniel, if you'll wait until next week, I'll send you a burner for testing at altitude. I'm curious about how well a venturi works at 7500 feet ASL. It's not as fancy as a t-rex, but it's been a pretty bullet proof design.

That's a deal! Big thanks in advance for doing that. PM coming...

I'm right at 7500 feet and so far even a MAPP gas torch will not consistently bend clips easily. My wife used one for soft glass work but the lack of O2 here can be a challenge... sounds like a cool one!

I really appreciate that and your burners look great!

 

[JCaswell]

Thanks, Daniel.
You're wife makes beads too? That's great. I also got mine away from the CF really quick, rigging up a little kiln with PID. She's been using a Skutt bead-making kiln for 10 years or so. Works fine and has no CF. The thermal mass is useful for beads too. The door is opened and closed often during a bead-making session, and all that stored heat definitely helps keep heat comparatively even. Plus, it can only cool so fast, so even though the kiln ramps, temp is guaranteed to be really steady. If she hasn't gone this way already, any of the 'real' bead torches (minor bench burner or better) with oxygen concentrator is totally the way to go! That Mapp "hot-head torch" is OK to start, but it's way too slow, even at sea level.

I like blown forges. At altitude, it may be your only option. Some guys like (and do great work with) atmospheric burners, worth a try if you're so inclined.