Quality Forge Build Or Buy.... How Would You Do It?

That's cool on the glass and Kiln! I toasted our little hot head bead torch and got my wife Sara a Red-Max and O2 concentrator for her Birthday this year. :D I went all out and she is working on the new shop now. We used to do collecting/lapidary/jewelry which led to my wife doing the beads and I got into knives.

I feel like I get the blown forges now, they are looking better and better. I know that will help with the altitude issues also.

My area has loads of mines and all of the larger ones had a forge going so I know I can pull something off.. Not too long ago the foundation of a cabin was found with a full set of tools under the floorboards! I'm sure they were burning coal or pine charcoal as it is very plentiful here... I need to build that smithy! I'm only going to focus on a gas forge at the moment but find these things interesting. My prospecting buddy was running a pinion fired smelter that was just massive...


I'm likely going to order some supplies for the forge body first, I'll consult with you guys on the plans though. I'm going to look for a free cylinder first and work my way up from there. Sheet metal is another option... lol I have been wondering if a big steel mailbox might be nice for a beehive style forge.
 
silver_pilate said:
Mike, just a suggestion, but I'd consider lining that kaowool with satanite or something similar to keep tiny little refractory fragments from blowing around everywhere as the blanket breaks down over time. Especially if you ever forge in a building, as you don't want to breathe that stuff over time. It would be worse with a blown forge, but even a venturi will have some decent air current through it.

--nathan
Click to expand...

Nathan, thanks very much for the heads up. I ended up giving the inside a coating of castable refractory and then some ITC 100. Coincidentally, I'd recently moved my forge inside my shop and added a blower to one of my burners, so it was definitely a needed improvement. I'm also gonna start wearing my respirator when I forge (in addition to when I grind/sand) because the air in the shop usually has a good bit of ambient dust.

Mike
 
Just a FYI, but castable refractory should still have an outer wrap of kaowool. It absorbs and holds heat well, which makes the forge run well once the refractory is fully heat soaked. A forge with the castable shell wrapped in wool will be more efficient.
 
My forge doesn't have a CF wrap, but the top of my salt pots is done that way (1/4 inch of CF paper then about 2 3/4 inches of refractory cement). :thumbup:

The forge is just really thick solid cast cement .... about 5 inches. When soaked, Its pretty warm on the outside, but you can still touch the 3/16 steel shell, so I think it's doing pretty well keeping heat in, considering it's only about 5 inches to bright yellow. Takes forever to cool down too. Usually still a little warm the next morning.

It could be almost stone cold on the outside at full temp if there was a layer of CF wool or paper inside between the cement and steel shell for max efficiency, as Stacy points out.

One downside to full-size cast refractory/firebrick forges: they're heavy!---really heavy. Lifting the top on mine is no joke. I can change things around by tilting the top and sliding the bricks around, but a dead-lift of the top is not a small thing.

I've found the longevity to be excellent. The bricks on the outside are cheap and begin to fail first. They are easily replaced. The cast base eventually forms a trough through erosion from the blast and dragging. Every few years, I'll remove the top and chip off the burnt layer. Then I just fill in the shallow with fresh refractory. I initially thought I'd see the layers of fresh and old delaminate in the heat, but have never seen that. Never had to service the cast refractory in the forge's top yet. :)
 
I'm thinking about building a forge body like this one - http://www.rayrogers.com/miniforge.htm

I have some hard fire brick, would it be good to "float" it over the inswool with soft brick legs then coat in castable refractory... add some mass and a more solid floor?


Atlas 100K Burner on the way! I'll be demoing it for you guys at extreme altitude thanks to Charles at Atlas Knife Company.
 
Here's a vertical 12" forge body made from a grain elevator auger tube:


Here's another 12" from the recycle place with a 6" web welded in to extend the effective heat zone without proportionately enlarging the circumference:



2" of wool lined with Satanite to increase thermal mass and keep the wool from fragmenting. (Keeps "cancer causing" fears at bay).
Amazing how well insulated this is. It will burn steel if I turn it up.

The top 2" are the hard fire board.

 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
I'm likely going to order some supplies for the forge body first, I'll consult with you guys on the plans though. I'm going to look for a free cylinder first and work my way up from there. Sheet metal is another option... lol I have been wondering if a big steel mailbox might be nice for a beehive style forge.
Click to expand...

Did someone say, mailbox forge?! ;) :D lol Here are some pics of my "latest" forge that I built, while it was still newer looking near the end of 2013.





I got the cheap mail box from Lowes and for the burner on this one I got the venturi kit from HighTempTools. However, I would buy the "z-burner" from zoeller forge over the "burner kit" from highttemptools because the z-burner comes pre-drilled and tapped as is ready to be assembled, and for the same price nonetheless.. I wasn't able to get ahold of him though at the time so I went ahead with this one. Also, if you have a pottery supply place near you, you can find all the kaowool, refractory cement, soft fire brick, ceramic kiln shelf and many other items there as well, I live near a "Clay Art Center" so I feel lucky, because shipping on those items can be VERY $$$ !! :thumbdn:

The idea behind this forge was to be able to do forge work, forge welding and heat treating in it, which is why I opted for the "flat" floor mailbox shape instead of completely round forgebody. I was able to pick up ceramic kiln shelf for a VERY good price at Clay Art Center (plus no shipping :D ) and the idea was to just swap out the floor whenever I wanted to forge weld, because the flux gets over EVERYTHING when trying to forge or heat treat and it's just no bueno. It works nice for my needs, but I'm sure I could have done better.. w/e though.

When I heat treat in it, I just use a muffle (some round or square tube) and slide in my thermocouple with it's ceramic sheath on it in through the back port into the muffler so it's right next to the blade. But that shouldn't be a problem for you since you have some pretty nice kilns :) . I know it's not the best forge, but it's working for me, at least for now. ;) Anyway just thought I'd add a couple pictures of mine since the word "mailbox" was mentioned :D

I hope you do get into forging Daniel, I would love ta see would you would come up with, you're very creative! :thumbup:

Best of luck to you in this endeavor brother, you have the some of the best helpin ya out here :)

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
 
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Karl B. Andersen said:
Here's a vertical 12" forge body made from a grain elevator auger tube:

Here's another 12" from the recycle place with a 6" web welded in to extend the effective heat zone without proportionately enlarging the circumference:

2" of wool lined with Satanite to increase thermal mass and keep the wool from fragmenting. (Keeps "cancer causing" fears at bay).
Amazing how well insulated this is. It will burn steel if I turn it up.

The top 2" are the hard fire board.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the pics and help Karl! That top forge looks like a beast, i like it!




coldsteelburns said:
Did someone say, mailbox forge?! ;) :D lol Here are some pics of my "latest" forge that I built, while it was still newer looking near the end of 2013.

I got the cheap mail box from Lowes and for the burner on this one I got the venturi kit from HighTempTools. However, I would buy the "z-burner" from zoeller forge over the "burner kit" from highttemptools because the z-burner comes pre-drilled and tapped as is ready to be assembled, and for the same price nonetheless.. I wasn't able to get ahold of him though at the time so I went ahead with this one. Also, if you have a pottery supply place near you, you can find all the kaowool, refractory cement, soft fire brick, ceramic kiln shelf and many other items there as well, I live near a "Clay Art Center" so I feel lucky, because shipping on those items can be VERY $$$ !! :thumbdn:

The idea behind this forge was to be able to do forge work, forge welding and heat treating in it, which is why I opted for the "flat" floor mailbox shape instead of completely round forgebody. I was able to pick up ceramic kiln shelf for a VERY good price at Clay Art Center (plus no shipping :D ) and the idea was to just swap out the floor whenever I wanted to forge weld, because the flux gets over EVERYTHING when trying to forge or heat treat and it's just no bueno. It works nice for my needs, but I'm sure I could have done better.. w/e though.

When I heat treat in it, I just use a muffler (some round or square tube) and slide in my thermocouple with it's ceramic sheath on it in through the back port into the muffler so it's right next to the blade. But that shouldn't be a problem for you since you have some pretty nice kilns :) . I know it's not the best forge, but it's working for me, at least for now. ;) Anyway just thought I'd add a couple pictures of mine since the word "mailbox" was mentioned :D

I hope you do get into forging Daniel, I would love ta see would you would come up with, you're very creative! :thumbup:

Best of luck to you in this endeavor brother, you have the some of the best helpin ya out here :)

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul!

Excellent information, good stuff there!

I was wondering on the floor, no flux cross contamination right? lol I need to read more. I might just do a small floor for thermal mass.

Thanks for the kind words too, I'm excited to get to forging!

The mailbox is too cool, very nice work.

I may try the muffle (would be cool to heat treat simpler steels) and am debating installing a ceramic sheath... also debate on the forge welding. I want it all but will probably keep my build on the smaller, simpler side.... but the second forge will be nuts! lol :D
 
javand said:
I personally use a thermocouple and a pyrometer, but I don't/won't bother with PID control. With a needle valve on your gas input and a gate valve in front of your blower (ideally you need a gate valve, not just the damper on the blower) and a sufficiently high pressure blower than can supply high pressure air even heavily dampened, you should be able to nail and hold any temp you want manually.

IMHO when dealing with gas a PID is unnecessarily complicated and may be counterproductive. You have to get into all sorts of crazy plumbing, and it tends to preclude being able to maintain a stable reducing forge atmosphere, and maintain efficiency, since you've got to have some burner or fuel source constantly being toggled by the PID, which means the atmosphere is changing each time.
Click to expand...

I agree!!! Leave pid's to the electric kilns, and maybe to molten salts rigs. Trust me, a good TC+reader with a needle valve (also throw in a pressure gauge for easier reference) you'll be yourself the best control system in the world with a forge ;)
If you have something else to do while HT'ing, a simple alarm bip will have you come back and adjust.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
Here's a vertical 12" forge body made from a grain elevator auger tube:


Here's another 12" from the recycle place with a 6" web welded in to extend the effective heat zone without proportionately enlarging the circumference:



2" of wool lined with Satanite to increase thermal mass and keep the wool from fragmenting. (Keeps "cancer causing" fears at bay).
Amazing how well insulated this is. It will burn steel if I turn it up.

The top 2" are the hard fire board.

Click to expand...

Basically same as mine, Karl. I have a 12" & a 20". If I had to pick one forge type, it'd be a 'vertical' hands down!
 
I too would take a vertical over most anything. This one is made from 12 pipe with kao wool and itc 100 ceramic coating. It has a kitty litter floor. The blower is only a 65 cfm but reaches welding heat in 10 minutes. Really efficient on propane too as it runs on only 4 psi.

IMG_0001_13_zps49fca621.jpg
 
Bruce that is looking good! I'm a big fan of your work.

The way it is built looks ideal for holding heat. Are these forges mostly used for forge welding?
 
Thanks for the follow up to my question guys, you are correct Javand I was thinking of Wheelers salt pot videos. Which is good because it sounded like montazuma's revenge and I don't think that I could tolerate that for long periods!

Thank's for the link NC!

Informative thread Dan
 
So I've been mulling over the idea of making a new propane forge. The first one I made works, but the way I attached the inlet for my burner was wrong. It basically catches some of the flame as it goes into the chamber and causes the forge body to heat up.
Anyway, I'm going to build a new forge. I've got a huge chunk of steel water pipe, it's probably 24 inches across and 4 feet long. What should I make? I'm leaning towards a vertical, as I do want to get into both forging and pattern welded stuff eventually... Votes? Suggestions? With the materials I have now.
Sorry if I'm hijacking, I kinda figured it was on topic.
 
Bruce Bump said:
I too would take a vertical over most anything. This one is made from 12 pipe with kao wool and itc 100 ceramic coating. It has a kitty litter floor. The blower is only a 65 cfm but reaches welding heat in 10 minutes. Really efficient on propane too as it runs on only 4 psi.
Click to expand...

Me, too, Bruce. I weld a ton of Damascus and almost never exceed 4 psi.
And I can run it at about 1 psi for austenizing steel and I almost can't hear it burn.

Don Hanson III said:
Basically same as mine, Karl. I have a 12" & a 20". If I had to pick one forge type, it'd be a 'vertical' hands down!
Click to expand...

What I do not like about other types of forges is that they often direct flame directly at the blade.
With the blower introducing heat at the bottom in a vertical, it heats up the entire forge and we heat the blade by thermal mass - which is far more even and efficient.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
That's cool on the glass and Kiln! I toasted our little hot head bead torch and got my wife Sara a Red-Max and O2 concentrator for her Birthday this year. :D I went all out and she is working on the new shop now. We used to do collecting/lapidary/jewelry which led to my wife doing the beads and I got into knives.

I feel like I get the blown forges now, they are looking better and better. I know that will help with the altitude issues also.

My area has loads of mines and all of the larger ones had a forge going so I know I can pull something off.. Not too long ago the foundation of a cabin was found with a full set of tools under the floorboards! I'm sure they were burning coal or pine charcoal as it is very plentiful here... I need to build that smithy! I'm only going to focus on a gas forge at the moment but find these things interesting. My prospecting buddy was running a pinion fired smelter that was just massive...


I'm likely going to order some supplies for the forge body first, I'll consult with you guys on the plans though. I'm going to look for a free cylinder first and work my way up from there. Sheet metal is another option... lol I have been wondering if a big steel mailbox might be nice for a beehive style forge.
Click to expand...

Daniel, I have seen some of your work (very nice) and have read many of your posts giving helpful information to others. So in an effort to give back to Bladeforum members who have helped me along the way, I'd like to help you out the best I can. I have access to a lot of materials, both stainless and carbon steel pipes, large and small diameters. I'll check and see what pipe remnants I have that you can make a reasonably good sized forge with, and let you know. I can also help fabricate some parts for you, as I am an experienced fabricator and welder. Let me know what you're in need of and what size, and I'll see what I can do. Your only cost would be for shipping the material to you. Let me know if you're interested.

Rick
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
Me, too, Bruce. I weld a ton of Damascus and almost never exceed 4 psi.
And I can run it at about 1 psi for austenizing steel and I almost can't hear it burn.



What I do not like about other types of forges is that they often direct flame directly at the blade.
With the blower introducing heat at the bottom in a vertical, it heats up the entire forge and we heat the blade by thermal mass - which is far more even and efficient.
Click to expand...

All of the above & flux falls to the bottom when pattern welding. Doesn't eat up the whole forge...
 
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