Queen Cutlery, ongoing history....

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

One of my biggest reasons for liking and wanting to like the Queen Cutlery firm... their history. Not just because they make traditional knives using traditional methods. Not just because they are US made... it's because they are those things and more! Queen is in itself original continual history. Neat to be able to buy these types of knives, not just from a new modern day started traditional maker that basically makes repros... but from a company that makes knives that were made by them back in the early 1920's, 1930's, 1940's. That I find so cool... original ongoing history. Case is that too... but their methods have been ongoing as well... It can do that, it is an old firm making old traditional style knives, but using some advanced methods as they came along in their history. I like Case... and much too because it is an ongoing history firm.. they were here then, they are here now. I favor Queen, but only because their methods of manufacture stayed pretty old school, holding that feel when one has one in hand. Even though Utica Cutlery has some issues with quality control, I want to like them for the same reason as Queen and Case.... Utica being ongoing, continual, history. They represent some of the very last true old names in American traditional knife cutlery.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Jimmy, after the camaraderie here and the knives themselves, the history of these old companies is enjoyable to read about, both here and in print. To know that a company has weathered the years and is still functioning using old methods is neat.

 

[knifeswapper]

A couple things strike me as interesting.

First, Queen is making knives on equipment that is from early last century. Much in the same way and probably with less people, on average, than much of their history. They have had times where they were overlooked and times where they were making the best knife in the country. But the old knives were made no better (again on average, as there are some dogs) than the new knives. Pick up a 60 year old knife from the same factory and it is a great tool, and a little gap here or a little movement there, do not make it any less so. I have had very old Schatt & Morgans in unused condition, that I could watch TV through the backspring. But we (because I am just as guilty as the next guy) have decided to change what is acceptable just because we have decided to collect the knife our grandad used and loved. It's my money and I will decide how to spend it and what my criteria will be; but my mindset has caught the old world factories off guard at the same time this grand economy (which has no inflation) has drove their costs thru the roof. They seem to have scrambled the last few years to find places to trim their cost, and that has exacerbated the problem in my opinion. But, even at the quality level they were at 10 years ago, they would be fighting to make in today's marketplace.

Secondly, I would definitely not want to be the guy trying to make a new name on old equipment. GEC had a grand idea, but it may have come too late in our hobbies life cycle to have worked. We are flooded with imported competition and a market that wants to collect knives made like 100 years ago without any of the problems of 100 year old making. There are great cutlers in these factories today, but there is no reason to believe they are any better on this equipment than their grandfathers were. Some of the oldest factories in America have closed and the German counterparts are doing the same or working agreements to get much of the work done elsewhere. I find it hard to believe these factories would close if there were any other alternative; thus I must believe that today's market simply will not support them.

Case seems to have found a way to bring a 100 year old name into a new century, but they have had more layoffs in the last 10 years than you can count on one hand. So I am not convinced that even modern equipment can keep this old tool alive in this country for much longer. The argument always comes up that "I should get a near perfect knife for $75"; but if a factory can't make a knife that a seller can garner a little profit at that same $75 - it has no future. I have always had the same opinion as most, that we should keep the factories making the best knife they can possibly make at its price point. But I think we are at that tipping point where what they can make for a price is not aligned with what we will accept for said price. Seems like I view everything thru my pessimistic glasses these days, and I am trying to change that bad attitude. But I am very concerned for this grand hobby of ours, whether old school or new school.

 

[coaltrain]

Nice post Mike - I agree with everything you have said.

For me, a big part of this hobby is the history behind the knives. I give the current regime at Queen a big thumbs up for trying to keep the brand alive along with the workmanship.

I find myself looking through some other colored glasses or sorts being pretty much out of touch with society the past 8 years - even more so the past year. What I see is a different generation that doesn't care about such things as the history behind these knives and manufacturers. I think we here are a very small group that enjoys this kind of thing, but no where near enough to keep these businesses afloat. It's a shame, but a reality in my eyes.

 

[Bob W]

The argument always comes up that "I should get a near perfect knife for $75"; but if a factory can't make a knife that a seller can garner a little profit at that same $75 - it has no future. I have always had the same opinion as most, that we should keep the factories making the best knife they can possibly make at its price point. But I think we are at that tipping point where what they can make for a price is not aligned with what we will accept for said price.

Interesting comment. Here's something pulled from a recent Traditional topic:

This knife that sold for $1.15 in 1912 should cost $27.12 today, when adjusted for inflation.

Two possible conclusions to draw from this. First, pocketknife prices have risen at a much greater rate than the rate of inflation. Second, the official government inflation rates are Bull-.

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

Stan, Mike... you have both given good points... and both very well worded. I guess my buying from just about all of the current US traditional knife makers, is because I too see the writing on the wall, so taking my last stab (pun not intended) at collecting their wares.

 

[stevomiller]

Mike,
Well spoken and spot on. Also, to the point of inflation: compare the costs of renting or purchasing a house in 1912 vs 2013 and the fact that the inflation is has increased costs more than stated is obvious.

 

[Peregrin]

Excellent post, Mike. I think you're spot on.

 

[sitflyer]

Mike, that is a great post. I don't see it as pessimistic, its a well thought out and written assessment of the current trends in collectors perceptions and makers production and sales hurdles. I totally agree with your points, and for one I feel blessed for the time we are in right now as far as GEC, Queen, and other production knives which we have to choose from. But I don't see it as a growing market in the long term.

 

[sitflyer]

As far is inflation is concerned, I wonder what the tax rates were in 1912...

 

[zippofan]

I am late to this hobby unfortunately, kindled by my involvement in Scouting and the old knives carried by my fellow Scouters, some of whom are on their 3rd, 4th and even 5th decade in Scouts. My own Troop celebrates 85 years in February. These guys carry Case and Schrade, and of course old Camillus and Ulster Boy Scout knives too. When I started with Cub Scouts 10 years ago I had a Zippo lockback and went and got myself a shiny new SAK. Something twigged my interest a couple years ago, that's when I found this place.

Ever since then, I've learned all kinds of things about knives, construction, history, maintenance, but most of all, I've learned about the great people who come here to discuss their hobby, tell stories and share each others' company. I understand what Mike is saying, and have watched as quality German made knives slowly disappear from the scene. With the advent of GEC and purchase of Queen, there is hope, but I also fear that the public's desire for cheap and modern will relegate our favorites to a tiny niche, selling to the same folks, unable to draw in additional customers due to cost or lack of interest in something old fashioned but high quality.

Every time a new member shows up here declaring that they want to try a slip joint, or they've discovered how good they are that hope grows. I try to show my guys nice slip joints every Thursday evening and on hikes and camping trips. We give out inexpensive traditionals for Christmas gifts and encourage interest. Maybe my guys will carry that forward and become customers of our favorite makers. In the meantime, I'll do my best to stimulate their business as I look at my wish list of Queen, Schatt and Morgan, GEC, Northwoods, and Case. I received a few this week and will have a Schatt on the way soon

As a moderator on a wrist watch forum, I've watched the resurgence of mechanical movements, perhaps the same is possible with traditional style knives. I certainly hope so.

 

[blademan 13]

Mike, excellent post. Unfortunate but true.

 

[kamagong]

The argument always comes up that "I should get a near perfect knife for $75"; but if a factory can't make a knife that a seller can garner a little profit at that same $75 - it has no future. * I have always had the same opinion as most, that we should keep the factories making the best knife they can possibly make at its price point. *But I think we are at that tipping point where what they can make for a price is not aligned with what we will accept for said price. *Seems like I view everything thru my pessimistic glasses these days, and I am trying to change that bad attitude. *But I am very concerned for this grand hobby of ours, whether old school or new school.

Thanks for sharing this Mike. I've long felt the same way.

It seems that people demand perfection these days and raise a stink when they don't get it. American made, with impeccable fit and finish, a Spyderco-esque edge, and natural handle materials -- for no more than $50. I know that I'm exaggerating a bit, but when I read of people complaining of blade play in lockbacks (a known characteristic of the design), I just shake my head. Seeking perfection in anything man made is a fool's quest. Even near perfection is difficult to achieve, and you'd have to spend at least $400 to get it.

I don't need or even want a flawless knife. All I ask for is a knife with decent steel, natural handle materials, and made by a craftsman who takes pride in his work. Small cosmetic imperfections don't bother me; they're par for the course with slipjoints.

- Christian

 

[jc57]

Mike, to one of your points about our expectations at the prices we are willing to pay.

I see a number of posts from people who don't like to risk buying a Case knife without inspecting them in person first. I personally buy plenty of Case and other brand knives over the Internet. Here recently I haven't paid more than $30 for a new Case knife. Of 5 factory new Case knives that I have received in the past few weeks, two were outstanding, two were in line with my expectations, and one had a few flaws. I am happy with all of them, including the flawed one, and most have already or will soon find their way into my pocket.

I mean $30. That's four meals at McDonald's. Or half a tank of gas. Both of which will be waste material by the end of the week, while that Case knife will last your entire life.

I've got maybe 70 Case knives, many purchased new, some new old stock, some used, some gifted, and really for their price point all are excellent tools. Sure there's some variation in quality control. Sure, I think they could do a better job on consistency of bone dyeing. But I've never had one that I thought needed to be sent back to the factory. Out of 70, zero returns so far.

I've purchased a few GEC knives as well and while certainly beautifully made knives, a couple of those have some imperfections as well. They are not the pinnacle of perfection that their reputation makes out. So far the best fit and finish out of the box in my experience has been Victorinox and Buck. But I realize they aren't exactly what people are looking for in 'traditional' knives because they are too utilitarian and actually designed to be good tools first with appearance and appeal to nostalgia either a lower or no priority.

I find it oddly incongruous that we frequently ooh and aah over some knife that looks like it was dug up out of someone's back yard with blades that look like no one ever even tried to maintain them at all, and yet in the next breath we expect a $40 knife to be a masterpiece of individual craftsmanship with tolerances that only a robot or many hours of effort could have produced.

Our exalted forebears, unless they were knife collectors, likely bought a knife off a hardware store display or sporting goods store without a second look, and I pretty much bet they didn't really pay that much attention to the brand. The reason they bought a Schrade, Case , or Buck is because that's what the local store happened to sell. I doubt that many of them looked for spring gaps or vertical blade play. If they did notice such things they would vote with their wallet next time they bought a knife and maybe pass it on to one or two friends that they didn't care for brand X. Nowadays that one negative customer experience gets broadcast to the whole world via web forums and now suddenly brand X is known for making bad products.

I agree with Mike that the US traditional knife making business, like many other US manufacturing businesses, is going to have a tough time surviving. I actually think it is doomed no matter what they do based on the demographic trends coming up. Let's face it. Knife collectors are predominantly old American men. There are exceptions of course, but they are overwhelmed by the majority. And what are all those old men going to be doing pretty soon? Dying. That will put an ever increasing supply of knife collections into the market with an ever dwindling number of people interested in buying them.

Manufacturers will have a tough time selling new knives into that market, and they'll be competing with the constant flood of inexpensive knives being made in whatever country has the lowest cost of labor at that particular moment.

So if you enjoy well made US traditional pocket knives, enjoy them while you can. We are likely one more recession away from them going away.

 

[Mack]

I don't need or even want a flawless knife. All I ask for is a knife with decent steel, natural handle materials, and made by a craftsman who takes pride in his work. Small cosmetic imperfections don't bother me; they're par for the course with slipjoints.

- Christian

Exactly my feeling on the subject.:thumbup:

 

[knifeswapper]

I don't chastise any one "desire" or "disappointment" as everyone has their right to spend their money. But I can get a knife back that the customer said was perfect except for a little bit of play. Examine it, wipe the prints off, and send it out on the next truck to another customer. They will post it on a forum as a flawless knife or find some whole other issue that the first customer had no problem. We all look at them a little differently...

It would be great if we could handle every knife for a few minutes before we bought it. But that is the main reason the internet can still support some of us selling knives and the storefronts are going the way of the dodo. The downside to internet purchasing is not handling it, the upside is generally the price and convenience. Price has a lot of components, but if I had a storefront and had to clean prints of every knife and re-wrap every knife in inventory daily - it would be expensive. And don't act like you don't know what I am talking about; you would open every stinkin factory wrapped Case Blue Bone Peanut until you found out for sure that you had found the perfect one.

 

[deskil]

I have always had the same opinion as most, that we should keep the factories making the best knife they can possibly make at its price point. But I think we are at that tipping point where what they can make for a price is not aligned with what we will accept for said price.

My sentiments, exactly. Competition from foreign made cutlery has people asking why they should pay from four to eight times as much for a knife of equal or lesser quality, especially when American cutlery companies often promise more than they can deliver. It's possible that the foreign manufacturers have a more refined production process and more up to date tooling, which gives them an advantage in a dwindling market that cannot support the disparity.

 

[midnight flyer]

Great post Mike. It shows not only a lot of insight into the traditional knife manufacturers, but a good look at the consumer's end of things.

I have been a self employed contractor for almost 30 years now. My customer requirements after all of these years of service are about like this:

- 10% don't really care what it costs to have the work done, they just want it done

- 10% will use my company even if I am the highest price, as long as I am not too much higher than the next guy

- 80% want all they can get for as little as they can pay. It's all about pricing, and even if lesser quality materials are used and poorer techniques are employed during the processes, they crow like a barnyard rooster when they get a low ball price on a "similar" product

You can see how this applies to the rest of the knife community that exists outside the confines of this forum.

For those that live outside these electronic walls, knives are still tools to many, and not important ones at that. I am reminded of that when I tell someone that I spent $65 for a new folder and the gasp in surprise. Well to me, that's weird, because hanging out here, there are guys that literally spend several hundred dollars just to get the scales in every color and any blade combination offered by the maker on one model. Spend $65 here, and folks make sure you know you are getting a "working knife" and you are counseled on managing your expectations.

To exacerbate the problem, some of the offshore offerings are quite nice. Much to my chagrin, I was gifted a couple of folders coming up on 5 years ago that are of offshore origin. So I started carrying them to make the gift giver happy, and found I liked them. I carried them on days where I knew I would be using a knife for nasty work that I didn't want to use my Queen or Case knives to do. I push my cuts harder, use them for light scraping, use them for opening bags of caustic materials, and the hardest work - I let some of my non knife guys use them on occasion.

The sad truth is that these knives are still in excellent condition and show no signs of wearing down. No gaps, no play, no weakening of the springs. I am truly impressed. These knives have lasted as good as any knife I have ever owned and better than most. Nowadays, if I don't grab one of the Queens you sold me, I will almost certainly get the large stockman for carry. I know I can use that knife with almost no concern for its safety and even more important, I can rely on it.

So say you aren't a knife guy, or you are a beginning tradesman, or if you are on a limited budget. Which would you buy? A $65 (much more if GEC and their ilk) folder steeped in tradition you don't know or care about, or a $15 folder that performs as well in the field, except that is needs almost no maintenance?

35 years ago, I read a revealing article in the Wall Street Journal written by the man that was the architect for revamping manufacturing of steel and iron products in Taiwan. They wanted two things; to be as flexible as possible to turn out different products as quickly as possible for clients, and establish a track record of high quality goods. To do this (looking at your post about the vintage equipment used to make Queen) he announced they would be spending billions on building new plants and designing and building new machines and replacing them as needed in order to best serve the market.

He acknowledged that it would take years to get the investment back and that it would be a constant process that must become mandatory protocol for the Taiwanese steel and iron manufacturers to get past their (then - 35 years ago) bad reputation.

When he was asked if he was afraid that the United State might do the same thing, he was blunt. He said "no, because Americans don't like to invest in their own companies. They set up their companies to make themselves money, not to plan for the future".

That was 40 years ago... rings pretty true.

Robert

 

[knarfeng]

I don't need or even want a flawless knife. All I ask for is a knife with decent steel, natural handle materials, and made by a craftsman who takes pride in his work. Small cosmetic imperfections don't bother me; they're par for the course with slipjoints.

- Christian

+2.

The knife in my pocket this afternoon is a Queen with stag bone covers and D2 blades. And it has a couple of minor gaps between the springs and the frame. But it's one of my favorites.

And I also agree with Mike. I think knife buyers are a lot fussier today than when pocket knives were commonly carried. Maybe because today they are bought by collectors instead of users. I remember the knives made in the 60's. They weren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. The Queen in my pocket is a far nicer knife with better blade steel and blades which do not wobble.

 

[coffeecup]

This knife that sold for $1.15 in 1912 should cost $27.12 today, when adjusted for inflation.

Two possible conclusions to draw from this. First, pocketknife prices have risen at a much greater rate than the rate of inflation. Second, the official government inflation rates are Bull-.

Another way to look at it is that, in 1912, the $20 gold double eagle was still circulating. Based on 1912 and current prices for gold, that knife would cost about $148 in 2013.