Queen Cutlery, ongoing history....

Nostalgia may live on but the targets of nostalgia may well change and as that happens new traditional products are no longer made but the trade is in the old products circulating. That's how it is with depression glass and early American cut glass and pocket watches collectors. The collecting communities for those items are lively, but the manufacturing of those products is dead and long gone. Plus, there may come a day when people are nostalgic for earlier Spyderco.
 
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It be interesting to know the average age of those buying GEC and Queen and Canal Street.

Hmmm.... I'll take a whack at that one..... How old is the average traditional pocket knife buyer today?.... My simple answer.... "OLD".... lol! ;-)
 
Fact of the matter is, all the knife companies have to make products that people want and are willing to pay their money for. That may mean that they produce knives in more modern means. They do have to strive to make a better fit knife. I can get a pretty nice knife for $10 that is made in China. Case, Queen, and GEC HAVE to compete with that.

Victorinox makes an excellent, consistent knife for not very much money.

I think there's definitely a market for Case-like products with a Victorinox-like consistency. Boker's traditional pocketknives come closest to this, and I'm continually surprised that they aren't featured more in online discussions - this topic for example. About the same price as Case, but with consistency of quality far beyond what I've seen from Case.

There's also, obviously, a market for higher-priced knives that are more hand-finished with very tight quality controls, Great Eastern Cutlery. While I have no insight to their financials, many of their models sell like hotcakes even at prices approaching double what Case or Boker charge.

What remains to be seen, the brands that fall between Case and GEC, and the low-end American brands. I think there's still some shaking up to be done. Can Bear and Buck compete with the imports? Will Canal Street survive the competition from both above and below? Where will the new Queen knives owners take the company, into the higher-end market, lower-end market, or try to exist in a niche? The new USA-made Utica?

For the latter, it seems that brand history can be an added value, but not a main factor. GEC is recent and gets much love around, while old names who changed their politics seem to be getting little love (Schrade, for example).

Schrade went out of business in 2004. They failed. They didn't make the right moves at the right time, and continued to pursue a money-losing business plan for too long. They ran their low-end brand names into the ground (Imperial, Frontier, Tradesman, etc.), failed to market a high-end line, and couldn't produce their most respected and most popular brands (Old Timer, Uncle Henry) at a volume that was required and at a price that was profitable.
 
I am sure I have mentioned this.... When growing up and through most of my adult life, the traditional names I heard and knew of... Case, Buck, Camillis, Remington, Schrade, maybe a few others... but never knew about Queen until I got into this collecting a few months ago.... Go figure! ;-)
 
Hmmm.... I'll take a whack at that one..... How old is the average traditional pocket knife buyer today?.... My simple answer.... "OLD".... lol! ;-)

maybe some of us aren't that old but like the look and character of the traditional instead of the "tacticool". :)
 
With my recent Utica Cutlery fixed blade knife that I purchased... I got to thinking.... Here is a nicely made traditional fixed blade knife... made of carbon steel and of (from what I have heard) a consistant heat treating. A knife made, not only in the USA, but in a very expensive state in our union, NY. This knife, with a decently made and thick leather sheath, a nicely jigged bone handle... and all for $45 before shipping ($51 with shipping). If it had been made in another state where costs are lower with employee wages and state government controls... How much less could it have cost?.... Maybe $35? I do not know, but all I know is that this particular Utica knife was an exceptional quality product for the money. So, even though it may not be easy to do, it can be done. Hoping Queen, and others, will find a way. Being somewhat competitive is still going to be key for them, I believe. Queen, imo, has been able to give you quite a bit of bang for the buck (as far as US knives are concerned). Hope they continue with this :-)
 
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Great post Mike. It shows not only a lot of insight into the traditional knife manufacturers, but a good look at the consumer's end of things.

I have been a self employed contractor for almost 30 years now. My customer requirements after all of these years of service are about like this:

- 10% don't really care what it costs to have the work done, they just want it done

- 10% will use my company even if I am the highest price, as long as I am not too much higher than the next guy

- 80% want all they can get for as little as they can pay. It's all about pricing, and even if lesser quality materials are used and poorer techniques are employed during the processes, they crow like a barnyard rooster when they get a low ball price on a "similar" product

You can see how this applies to the rest of the knife community that exists outside the confines of this forum.

For those that live outside these electronic walls, knives are still tools to many, and not important ones at that. I am reminded of that when I tell someone that I spent $65 for a new folder and the gasp in surprise. Well to me, that's weird, because hanging out here, there are guys that literally spend several hundred dollars just to get the scales in every color and any blade combination offered by the maker on one model. Spend $65 here, and folks make sure you know you are getting a "working knife" and you are counseled on managing your expectations.

To exacerbate the problem, some of the offshore offerings are quite nice. Much to my chagrin, I was gifted a couple of folders coming up on 5 years ago that are of offshore origin. So I started carrying them to make the gift giver happy, and found I liked them. I carried them on days where I knew I would be using a knife for nasty work that I didn't want to use my Queen or Case knives to do. I push my cuts harder, use them for light scraping, use them for opening bags of caustic materials, and the hardest work - I let some of my non knife guys use them on occasion.

The sad truth is that these knives are still in excellent condition and show no signs of wearing down. No gaps, no play, no weakening of the springs. I am truly impressed. These knives have lasted as good as any knife I have ever owned and better than most. Nowadays, if I don't grab one of the Queens you sold me, I will almost certainly get the large stockman for carry. I know I can use that knife with almost no concern for its safety and even more important, I can rely on it.

So say you aren't a knife guy, or you are a beginning tradesman, or if you are on a limited budget. Which would you buy? A $65 (much more if GEC and their ilk) folder steeped in tradition you don't know or care about, or a $15 folder that performs as well in the field, except that is needs almost no maintenance?

35 years ago, I read a revealing article in the Wall Street Journal written by the man that was the architect for revamping manufacturing of steel and iron products in Taiwan. They wanted two things; to be as flexible as possible to turn out different products as quickly as possible for clients, and establish a track record of high quality goods. To do this (looking at your post about the vintage equipment used to make Queen) he announced they would be spending billions on building new plants and designing and building new machines and replacing them as needed in order to best serve the market.

He acknowledged that it would take years to get the investment back and that it would be a constant process that must become mandatory protocol for the Taiwanese steel and iron manufacturers to get past their (then - 35 years ago) bad reputation.

When he was asked if he was afraid that the United State might do the same thing, he was blunt. He said "no, because Americans don't like to invest in their own companies. They set up their companies to make themselves money, not to plan for the future".

That was 40 years ago... rings pretty true.

Great post. There are so many options these days with knives. I find it amazing really that the market supports such diversity.

Knife collectors buy knives just to check them out and possibly collect them. But your typical user looks at the price FIRST and assumes that the quality exists. Much like my early buying of revolvers, my thought was.... it shoots, they sell a lot, so they must be "good". (H&R, Charter, and now Taurus) Same goes for knives and I worry that there simply aren't enough people willing to buy a $100 slip joint in quantites that will support a factory and the upgrading of machinery.

I showed my older brother a GEC folder thinking that it would really appeal to him. The knife did, but the price did not. He simply closed his mind to any possibility of buying such a folder. Reminds me of the Schrade Uncle Henry line years ago.... I simply ignored them due to pricing. Figured anything guaranteed against loss had to be selling at prices well above their value.
 
Leave the "messing around" to Whine and Cheese.

The next time I have to make a similar statement, it will be accompanied by an infraction.
 
Jimmy, I took you to be a young person. I found it interesting that you bought the Utica fixed blade..... no that's not quite right.... I found it interesting that you were so worried that you bought a piece of junk which goes to your financial situation and your perspective on knife value.

I mentioned my older brother a couple posts back and his reaction to GEC pricing. My brother could drop $10K and never even notice it, but to him a $100 GEC knife is overkill. Queens fit below that price point for the most part, but a similar kind of reaction occurs. If you look at the Daniels transition high priced folders (Tuna Valley or something like that)..... they are purely for collectors or for people who don't pay attention to price. I suspect they are excellent knives. But I won't consider buying one.
 
I was worried my Utica would be a 50/50 chance of my liking it. Those fears were solely based on my prior experience in going through some Utica pocket knives until I found decent specimens. Lucky for me, the knife came and it was very good, indeed. I guess not everything has to cost a zillion dollars for it to be a good product.I think that the prices I have paid for my Queen made knives, have been a very fair deal. Nothing wrong with a fair deal :-)
 
The zillion dollars is the crux of the issue with the survival of such US companies such as GEC, Queen, Canal Street, and I guess Case. If they fail, somebody like United will buy the companies for the copyrighted brands and then proceed to have knives made in China with those valued names on them.

I was most pleased that you were satisfied with the Utica fixed blade. I recall recommending a Queen fixed blade as an economiclly priced hunting knife. (I had purchased one, but had to re-profile the blade to get it reasonably sharp.) Eventually the poster bought the Queen and then was dissatisfied because it wasn't sharp. My thought was... well it was $50, not $500. I think your Utica would fit into that economcially priced niche quite nicely.
 
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Here is just one example of how, Queen in particular, can be a good quality and value product. This knife has a great build, very nicely finished. It is made using ats34 stainless steel blade. It has a few extras reserved for these file and wire series of Schatt & Morgan knives (they being a premier line for Queen). Purchased just a few weeks ago online for less than, if I remember correctly, $80 shipped. A very high quality production knife (non custom). Well made American knife.... $80 not cheap by any means, but good fair price for a good pocket knife. Obviously, price may not be everything, if it were, then a $15 Rough Rider may be my target... but yes, price is a factor... ymmv :-)
 
All good.... I just don't want you all to think I am stereotyping you all as old men with some old style knives :-)

I think it's a valid subject. Pocketknives aren't the only consumer products at risk from an aging customer base.

Consider the young kids today. If their dads carry quality pocketknives, they're likely to be from Spyderco or Benchmade; those are the vintage collectibles of the future.
 
I have been growing fond of that pattern but have not purchased one yet. The closest thing I own close to that is the GEC Ben Hogan #65 which I bought at the Blade Show in 2012. I didn't attend this year. Probably will in 2014 however. Reason > I had no serious disposable money to take with me and I hate to go to such a show and not have at least $1000 with me.

Queen makes a nicely fitted product. I like them. Tha S&M line is their premium line as you know.

Added: Yes Bob, kids of today are more likely to look at the Spydie and Benchmades as the knives of their fathers and as a result will look to those as well. Got to have that dang clip.... :D
 
Fact of the matter is, all the knife companies have to make products that people want and are willing to pay their money for. That may mean that they produce knives in more modern means. They do have to strive to make a better fit knife. I can get a pretty nice knife for $10 that is made in China. Case, Queen, and GEC HAVE to compete with that.

Victorinox makes an excellent, consistent knife for not very much money.

I read this thread and see a bunch of "doom and gloom" about how the US cutlery industry is failing. I don't see that. We have a fairly new company making knives (GEC), a couple of survivors (Case, Queen), one who had risen from the ashes (Canal Street), and a bunch of Custom makers who are doing this full time.

Want to make things better? Promote the use of traditional pocket knives outside of knife oriented forums. Start a "do you carry a pocket knife" thread (and of course post pretty pictures of your knives), give traditionals as gifts to those who don't carry a pocket knife or those who carry something modern.

Modern knives are seen as useful and cool. Promote the traditional as such.

I like what you have to say on this topic Woodrow(including your follow up posts). I also dont see this industry dying. I see a lot of men getting rich off of selling goods that people want to buy. I see others around here justifying poor quality. The knives being made today are exactly that, made today to what consumers want today. It has nothing to do with 100 year old knives except the looks because thats about all they have in common. Personally I could care less about imperfections in the cover material or if it has an etch. I use every knife I own and I use them hard on the job. As such I demand a perfectly sound mechanical tool. Gaps in the liner and blade play are imperfect working specimens and as such I dont want them. If it has a gap out of the box it wont get better with time, period. I think we all forget sometimes that these companys do this to make money. By justifying their poor quality or attention to detail we hurt the future end product. If it takes a modern company hiring one more employee to look over every knife and send any of them back to the line to be readjusted and then dinged the cutler that made the mistake, ultimately leading to either growth in a craftsman or getting fired, things would change rapidly for all involved. Hold people accountable, charge us $10 more for this service per knife and know that when you ship a knife out of your factory, it wont return. That is how you set yourself apart, thats how you make money and thats how you make people pay attention. Its very easy to start a business in any line of work, its very hard to separate yourself as the leader in your field.
 
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Yes, pattern aside... the deal feels right. Again, I did not get the knife free... $80 is not free... but it was not $15 for an import, nor $150 for US made... it was fair at $80... imo. The above was not free either... but the Utica being priced at $51 shipped, was a great deal. I did not haggle on price, I paid what they asked for both the Utica and the Schatt & Morgan. Obviously, the online company had to pay Utica for the knife, and they then had to mark it up some for it to be worth their effort. I can't mention the company I got it from (not a contributor to this forum)... but are not new to the game, and are reputable. Am I guilty of shopping around?.... Yup... Is service important, yup.... but so is price. I will certainly, and have, supported these US knife makers by purchasing their wares.... but I will not do so at any cost. There are $10-$20 rough riders.... $50-$175 US made knives... there are $500+ custom.... but even within those catagories.... there are some deals better than others... and so I will shop around :-)
 
I was also thinking what percentage of Americans own pocket knives that they have paid $100 for? How many have knives they have paid $150 for?..... How about $500 or more? The most expensive pocket knife I have is a French made Forge De Laguiole. It cost me $145 shipped, to be exact. They were on other sites for as much as $189.... but why pay $44 more, especially since the site for $145 was just as, if not more so reputable. So, truth is, I am already in probably a 1% percentage group that even considers paying 100+ dollars for a pocket knife. That being said, the sky is not the limit on what I will pay... and decent bang for the buck is still a factor for me. Let's put it this way, I don't go for the highest cost vendor for the same product sold for less elsewhere by a reputable source :-)
 
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